Homosexuality's Lonely North Shore

[Aero_Hudson]

Read this article over at conversantlife.com which I though asked a lot of great questions regarding how Christians respond to the gay community. Really insightful and although it does not provide all the answers or an easy solution hopefully it gets us all thinking a bit more about this issue.

http://www.conversantlife.com/social-is ... orth-shore

 

[handy]

Very thoughtful article. Thanks for sharing it.

Along the same vein, I was reading a letter by the presiding bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran Church which is poised to either allow or reject ordination of gay and lesbian ministers next month, as well as developing some kind of public recognition of life-long, monagomous, same sex unions (ie something that is marriage w/o being called marriage). Here is an excerpt:

In recent weeks I have been re-reading Bonhoeffer’s Life Together where he writes, “God already has laid the only foundation of our community, because God has united us in one body with other Christians in Jesus Christ long before we entered into common life with them.†He says that other Christians who may be different and yet live by God’s call, forgiveness, and promise are a gift and a reason to give thanks. He continues with this remarkable insight about all of us and the unifying power of Christ’s forgiveness:

Even when sin and misunderstanding burden the common life, is not the one who sins still a person with whom I too stand under the Word of Christ? Will not another Christian’s sin be an occasion for me ever anew to give thanks that both of us may live in the forgiving love of God in Jesus Christ? Therefore, will not the very moment of great disillusionment with my brother or sister be incomparably wholesome for me because it so thoroughly teaches me that both of us can never live by our own words and deeds, but only by that one Word and deed that really binds us together, the forgiveness of sins in Jesus Christ? (Dietrich Bonhoeffer Works, vol. 5, pp. 36-37.)

I haven't read the Bonhoeffer quotation in the context of the original yet. But, I wonder if Bonhoeffer would have expected/condonned his words here being applied in the context of gay/lesbian ordination or same-sex marriage.

We do all stand before God as sinners. But, what of agreement that our actions are indeed sinful and repentence regarding them? Can one truly say that one has agreed with God that a certain action is indeed sinful, but then continue to stay within that sin and even celebrate the sin by officially blessing it within a church setting?


btw, I do want to make it clear that the presiding bishop of the ELCA stressed that he was not sending this letter out to either condemn or condone the resolutions that are before the Churchwide Assembly. His tone was rather a call to unity during a particularly stressful, potentially divisive time.

 

[Aero_Hudson]

Thanks for the additional thoughts!

It is definitely a tough issue. I think what disturbs me as a Christian is what I see as the tendency for many "Christians" to see gays as evil, depraved and just downright despicable when we don't see other people with sin in the same light. For instance, an alcoholic who is in denial is sinning in many people's eyes. However, we look at him / her with pity and forgiveness and want to reach out to help him / her. With gays the reaction is very different and in the worst of cases aggressive and vehement.

It pains me deeply.

 

[handy]

I agree that there is a lot of shameful prejudice and judgmental attitudes on the part of Christians when it comes to gays.

If a gay or lesbian is honest and agrees with God about homosexuality and maintains a chaste lifestyle then they are no more sinful or less righteous than anyone else.

I think the back lash today about gays and lesbians, is that there are too many who want us to say that homosexuality isn't sin, that "God made" them that way, as something to be embraced as part of who they are.

In talking about this issue with our Synod bishop, we had a discussion on homosexuality that led to a kind of epiphany for me. It's hard to get around the language we need to have to adequately discuss this issue. Homosexuality is a term that is both used by gays and lesbians to identify their person and by those who hold the Bible to be God's Holy Truth as a sin. This leads to a lot of conflict.

From now on out, I'm going to use the word sexual orientation when I am speaking of how a person views their sexuality and homosexuality as the active participation in the lifestyle.

There is no place in the scriptures that says that one's sexual orientation is either sin or not sin. A person might be sexually orientated to the same sex. A person might be sexually orintated to have as many partners as possible. A person might be orientated to separate sex from love, marriage and relationship and look at it as only a pleasurable experience. A person might be sexually orientated to not really enjoy sex at all and looks upon the whole business as a chore. There is no sin in any of these things.

The sin comes in how we act upon the orientation. Sin comes in when we allow our orientation, no matter what it might be to carry us away with lust and to act out in a sexual manner that is outside of God's perimeters.

In other words, a woman who denies her husband because she doesn't "feel like it" is sinning just as much as two guys having sex are.

 

[jasoncran]

I agree that there is a lot of shameful prejudice and judgmental attitudes on the part of Christians when it comes to gays.

If a gay or lesbian is honest and agrees with God about homosexuality and maintains a chaste lifestyle then they are no more sinful or less righteous than anyone else.

I think the back lash today about gays and lesbians, is that there are too many who want us to say that homosexuality isn't sin, that "God made" them that way, as something to be embraced as part of who they are.

In talking about this issue with our Synod bishop, we had a discussion on homosexuality that led to a kind of epiphany for me. It's hard to get around the language we need to have to adequately discuss this issue. Homosexuality is a term that is both used by gays and lesbians to identify their person and by those who hold the Bible to be God's Holy Truth as a sin. This leads to a lot of conflict.

From now on out, I'm going to use the word sexual orientation when I am speaking of how a person views their sexuality and homosexuality as the active participation in the lifestyle.

There is no place in the scriptures that says that one's sexual orientation is either sin or not sin. A person might be sexually orientated to the same sex. A person might be sexually orintated to have as many partners as possible. A person might be orientated to separate sex from love, marriage and relationship and look at it as only a pleasurable experience. A person might be sexually orientated to not really enjoy sex at all and looks upon the whole business as a chore. There is no sin in any of these things.

The sin comes in how we act upon the orientation. Sin comes in when we allow our orientation, no matter what it might be to carry us away with lust and to act out in a sexual manner that is outside of God's perimeters.

In other words, a woman who denies her husband because she doesn't "feel like it" is sinning just as much as two guys having sex are.

i disagree with that logic of orientation, as the urge and thought would still be there( he/she would still have the desires and may think about that and would have to ask god to deliver him/her)

i have a friend who was gay and struggled with that upon salvation and it was Lord that took that way, i was delivered immediately and have no thoughts ( desire to return)on that, satan has tried to tempt me there and i rebuke him immediately.

handy we sometimes undersestimate the power of jesus, even an alcoholic is no more an alcholic when he's been healed by jesus, do the blind men healed by jesus still say there blind when they are able to see

jason

 

[handy]

Jason, I certainly defer to you as one who knows far more about this than I. And, yes, I've known at least one gay friend who, having given the whole matter over to Christ went on to marry a woman and have a family.

But, as you say, you have been tempted to the sin and have to rebuke Satan. What I'm saying is that the promiscious hetro, might be tempted to look at a woman and desire to be with her and have to rebuke Satan, or a woman who has no sexual desire be tempted to plead a "headache" to her husband and have to rebuke Satan.

The sin is not in the temptation, but in allowing the temptation to take hold and carry us away with lusts and actions. And I believe that we are tempted in how we are orientated. I know I've not been tempted to sin in this way with another woman. I have been tempted to sin in this way with another man.

This is what I mean by orientation.

 

[jasoncran]

Jason, I certainly defer to you as one who knows far more about this than I. And, yes, I've known at least one gay friend who, having given the whole matter over to Christ went on to marry a woman and have a family.

But, as you say, you have been tempted to the sin and have to rebuke Satan. What I'm saying is that the promiscious hetro, might be tempted to look at a woman and desire to be with her and have to rebuke Satan, or a woman who has no sexual desire be tempted to plead a "headache" to her husband and have to rebuke Satan.

The sin is not in the temptation, but in allowing the temptation to take hold and carry us away with lusts and actions. And I believe that we are tempted in how we are orientated. I know I've not been tempted to sin in this way with another woman. I have been tempted to sin in this way with another man.

This is what I mean by orientation.

thanks for the clarification, on that i dont believe in any born gay however, some poeple have certain predisoption to being gay, i guess i was, i still have no clear reason why i did that sin, just that i did it and repented, i was confused and naive and yet also arrogant, and was an easy catch for satan to destroy, praise god for his grace

u believe in that people are born gay and are delivered or that some people can be vulnerable to that sin, ie an effimate man or a tomboy.

there are some men who are very gentile almost effimate, i have some of those qualities, but god doesn't intend a man to feeble, and he has changed me, just wanted to clarify

i'm sometimes bashful and too nonconfrontable even when the need arises to speak up at times, and i think can be used by satan to draw one into the lbgt lifestyle,
some me aren't into the heavy masculine things like football,bball, baseball,martial arts( funny i love that), or cars they just like gardening or reading, or other things(none of that is bad) but when society defines masculinty on those things then those who dont do them feel inferior, wow what revelation from jesus, and are looking for an indentity to belong with( a group), no that is bad either but without jesus as our source and true identity we can fall into satan's trap.

when i was saved( young in jesus)God's word began to change and heal me, The Word was instrumental in defing what a christian man should be and i'm still learning.

u gave me an idea to start a new thread on the definitons of masculinity and feminity and how the word says and relate it to lbgt lifestyle, and God used u to reveal why i went gay, i was praying for answer

I just wish that one day i could avoid all this talk on being gay as this subject is most displeasent to me, i was in a hurtful stage in my life, but that was dung for the new life and someone needs to hear these things

jason