Honour and Shame and the Prodigal Son

[smaller]

Indeed - but what triggered the 'obedient' son's antagonism towards the 'wayward' son? It was the 'honour/shame' imperative operating in society. The 'obedient' son was really 'shamed' by his father's ready acceptance of his wayward brother.

Likewise, we too can become antagonistic towards those whom God loves.

Indeed. Most readers believe the account to be only about the 'temporarily' disobedient son, when it can be read just as much about the attitude of 'religious obedient' ones....;) The account kind of leaves that matter hanging doesn't it? At least with the younger son, we have resolution.

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[Osgiliath]

Originally Posted by wayseer,

Indeed - but what triggered the 'obedient' son's antagonism towards the 'wayward' son? It was the 'honour/shame' imperative operating in society. The 'obedient' son was really 'shamed' by his father's ready acceptance of his wayward brother.

Likewise, we too can become antagonistic towards those whom God loves

Originally Posted By smaller,

Indeed. Most readers believe the account to be only about the 'temporarily' disobedient son, when it can be read just as much about the attitude of 'religious obedient' ones.... The account kind of leaves that matter hanging doesn't it? At least with the younger son, we have resolution.

Excellent points - both of you

Amen.

 

[rrowell]

I didn't mention any doctrines rrowell, other than showing from Scripture that the Shepherd goes after every last sheep, and that Paul and John witnessed the apostate church in their day, as well as mentioning a few unscriptural, pagan doctrines that have infiltrated the church (that many Christians still believe are Scriptural). Which "doctrines" of "mine" are you referring to?

Lets start here where you said :

The Truth about the 'real' magnitude of God's love and mercy is never popular. Carnal Christians prefer the hateful, pagan lies about everlasting torment, and the divisive false doctrines regarding carnal, external religious rituals that do nothing but divide the body of Christ. Analyzing the numbers and memberships in the congregations of Babylon prove this point.

The bible I have does teach of everlasting torment, therefore unless you can prove otherwise, it is your pagan carnal doctrine you speak of, not the doctrine of Christ, unless you like wayseer believe the bible is written by carnal and not inspiration.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by rrowell,

The bible I have does teach of everlasting torment.

I'm sure it does. But I would advise you to do some research and soul searching before you malign God's character with Egyptian and pagan/Greek concepts that were added to your Bible.

As a rule of thumb, there are Two Things we should never find in a Bible:

1. The old Anglo Saxon word "hell" (hel, helle - about 725 AD - refers to a nether world of the dead - during the Anglo-Saxon pagan period)
   
   
2. Any word denoting "endless time," as in "for ever AND ever," "everlasting," or "eternal." (There is NO such equivalent in any Hebrew or Greek manuscripts of the Holy Scriptures.)

If you would rather to hold on to your "idols of the heart" instead of pursuing the Truth with an honest, teachable heart and mind - then disregard this post.

 

[wayseer]

The bible I have does teach of everlasting torment, therefore unless you can prove otherwise, it is your pagan carnal doctrine you speak of, not the doctrine of Christ, unless you like wayseer believe the bible is written by carnal and not inspiration.

Then perhaps you might enter the debate and defend your position rather then attacking those with whom you disagree.

Certainly the biblical texts says much about 'everlasting torment' but Jesus says that the Father is ready to accept anyone - and that, again as Jesus demonstrates, includes those with whom we may not necessarily like as fellow travellers.

 

[rrowell]

I'm sure it does. But I would advise you to do some research and soul searching before you malign God's character with Egyptian and pagan/Greek concepts that were added to your Bible.

As a rule of thumb, there are Two Things we should never find in a Bible:

1. The old Anglo Saxon word "hell" (hel, helle - about 725 AD - refers to a nether world of the dead - during the Anglo-Saxon pagan period)

Hell is γεενναν gheh'-en-nah, it is a symbolic name Christ used to describe a place where the torment is greater than the human can comprehend, so he used the word γεενναν derived from Hebrew origin:

• gay' gah'-ee or (shortened) gay {gah'-ee}; probably (by transmutation) from the same root as 1466 (abbreviated); a gorge (from its lofty sides; hence, narrow, but not a gully or winter-torrent):--valley.
• Hinnom hin-nome' probably of foreign origin; Hinnom, apparently a Jebusite:--Hinnom.

Jeremiah 7:31 (KJV)
And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

1. Any word denoting "endless time," as in "for ever AND ever," "everlasting," or "eternal." (There is NO such equivalent in any Hebrew or Greek manuscripts of the Holy Scriptures.)

αιωνιον found 77 times with 9 inflections:

1. Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament.
   αιωνιος <G166>, αιωνιον, and (in 2 Thessalonians 2:16; Hebrews 9:12; Numbers 25:13; Plato, Tim., p. 38 b. (see below); Diodorus 1:1; (cf. WH’s Appendix, p. 157; Winer’s Grammar, 69 (67); Buttmann, 26 (23))) αιωνιος, αιωνια, αιωνιον (αιων);
   
   1. “without beginning or end, that which always has been and always will beâ€: Θεος, Romans 16:26 (ὁμονος αιωνιος, 2 Macc. 1:25); πνευμα, Hebrews 9:14.
   
   2. “without beginningâ€: χρονοις αιωνιοις, Romans 16:25; προ χρονων αιωνιων, 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2; ευαγγελιον, a gospel whose subject-matter is eternal, i.e., the saving purpose of God adopted from eternity, Revelation 14:6.
   
   3. “without end, never to cease, everlastingâ€: 2 Corinthians 4:18 (opposed to προσκαιρος); αιωνιον αυτον, joined to thee forever as a sharer of the same eternal life, Philemon 1:15; βαρος δοξης, 2 Corinthians 4:17; βασιλεια, 2 Peter 1:11; δοξα, 2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Peter 5:10; ζωη (see ζωη, 2 b.); κληρονομια, Hebrews 9:15; λυτρωσις, Hebrews 9:12; παρακλησις, 2 Thessalonians 2:16; σκηναι, abodes to be occupied forever, Luke 16:9 (the habitations of the blessed in heaven are referred to, cf. John 14:2 (also, dabo eis tabernacula aeterna, quae praeparaveram illis, 4 Esdras (Fritzsche, 5 Esdr.) 2:11); similarly Hades is called αιωνιος τοπος, Tobit 3:6, cf. Ecclesiastes 12:5); σωτηρια, Hebrews 5:9; (so Mark 16 (WH) in the (rejected) ‘Shorter Conclusion’). Opposite ideas are: κολασις, Matthew 25:46; κριμα, Hebrews 6:2; κρισις, Mark 3:29 (Rec. (but L T WH Tr text ἁμαρτηματος; in Acta Thom. sec. 47, p. 227 Tdf., εσται σοι τουτο εις αφεσιν ἁμαρτιωνκαι λυτρον αιωνιων παραπτωματων, it has been plausibly conjectured we should read λυτρον, αιωνιον (cf. Hebrews 9:12))); ολεθρος (Lachmann text ολεθριος, 2 Thessalonians 1:9 (4 Macc. 10:15); πυρ, Matthew 25:41 (4 Macc. 12:12 αιωνιω πυρι και βασανοις, ἁιεις ὁλοντον αιωνα ουκ αρνησουσι σε).
   
   (Of the examples of αιωνιος from Philo (with whom it is less common than αιδιος, which see, of which there are some fifty instances) the following are noteworthy: de mut. nora. sec. 2; de caritate sec. 17; κολασις αιωνιος fragment in Mang. 2:667 at the end (Richter 6:229 middle); cf. de praem, et poen. sec. 12. Other examples are de alleg, leg. iii., sec. 70; de poster. Caini sec. 35; quod deus immut. sec. 30; quis rer. div. her. sec. 58; de congressu quaer, erud. sec. 19; de secular sec 38; de somn. ii. sec. 43; de Josepho sec. 24; quod omn. prob. book sec. 4, sec. 18; de ebrietate sec. 32; de Abrah. sec. 10; ζωη αιωνιος: de secular sec. 15; Θεος (ὁ) αιωνιος: de plantat. sec. 2, sec. 18 (twice), sec. 20 (twice); de mundo sec. 2. from Josephus: Antiquities 7, 14, 5; 12, 7, 3; 15, 10, 5; b. j. 1, 33, 2; 6, 2, I; κλεος αιων Antiquities 4, 6, 5; b. j. 3, 8, 5, μνημη αι.: Antiquities 1, 13, 4; 6, 14, 4; 10, 11, 7; 15, 11, 1; οικον μεν αιωνιον εχεις (of God), Antiquities 8, 4, 2; εφυλαχθη ὁ Ιωαννης δεσμοις αιωνιοις, b. j. 6, 9, 4.
   
   Synonyms: αιδιος, αιωνιος: αιδιος covers the complete philosophic idea — without beginning and without end; also either without beginning or without end; as respects the past, it is applied to what has existed “time out of mind.†αιωνιος (from Plato on) gives prominence to the immeasurableness of eternity (while such words as συνεχης continuous, unintermitted, διατελης perpetual, lasting to the end, are not so applicable to an abstract term, like αιων); αιωνιος accordingly is especially adapted to supersensuous things, see the N.T. Cf. Tim. Locr. 96 c. Θεον δε τον μεν αιωνιον νως ὁρημονος etc.; Plato, Tim. 37 d. (and Stallbaum at the passage); 38 b. c.; legg. x., p. 904 a. ανωλεθρον δε ον γενομενον, αλλ’ ουκ αιωνιον. Cf. also Plato’s διαιωνιος (Tim. 38 b.; 39 e.). Schmidt, chapter 45.)
   
   
   
2. Strong's Greek DictionaryGreek Strong's Number: 166
   Greek Word: αἰώνιος
   Transliteration: aiōnios
   Phonetic Pronunciation:ahee-o'-nee-os
   Root: from <G165>
   Cross Reference: TDNT - 1:208,31
   Part of Speech: adj
   Vine's Words: Eternal, Everlasting
   
   Usage Notes:
   
   English Words used in KJV:
   eternal 42
   everlasting 25
   the world began + <G5550> 2
   since the world began + <G5550> 1
   for ever 1
   [Total Count: 71]
   
   from <G165> (aion); perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well) :- eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
   
   
   
   
3. Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old Testament and New Testament Words.
   
   Everlasting
   Usage Number: 1
   Strong's Number: <G166>
   Original Word: αἰώνιος, aiōnios
   Usage Notes: see ETERNAL.
   
   Usage Number: 2
   Strong's Number: <G126>
   Original Word: ἀΐδιος, aidios
   Usage Notes: denotes "everlasting" (from aei, "ever"), Rom. 1:20, RV, "everlasting," for AV, "eternal;" Jude 1:6, AV and RV "everlasting." Aiōnios, should always be translated "eternal" and aidios, "everlasting." "While aiōnios … negatives the end either of a space of time or of unmeasured time, and is used chiefly where something future is spoken of, aidios excludes interruption and lays stress upon permanence and unchangeableness" (Cremer).

If you would rather to hold on to your "idols of the heart" instead of pursuing the Truth with an honest, teachable heart and mind - then disregard this post.

Your universalism is raring its ugly head.

 

[rrowell]

Then perhaps you might enter the debate and defend your position rather then attacking those with whom you disagree.

Certainly the biblical texts says much about 'everlasting torment' but Jesus says that the Father is ready to accept anyone - and that, again as Jesus demonstrates, includes those with whom we may not necessarily like as fellow travellers.

I offered to debate you in a proper thread, you can bring your universalism friend and we can talk about the validity of the bible, you refuse, we are and have been off topic and the mods should kick you both off, universalism is not allowed here.