How could it happen? Millenial Reign enemies of God.

[Orion]

I was listening to the radio this morning (the preacher has been going through Revelation), and he came to the part were, at the end of the Millenial Reign, there is another huge group of people ("who's number was as the sand on the shore") comes against God in one final battle. This is during the time when Jesus is reigning over the earth and the Christians are reigning as well.

From what I understand, Satan and his angels are bound at this time, so a few questions:

1. How is sin still able to proliferate so much when Satan and his angels are not there to tempt?

2. How can SOOOO many people, outside of Satanic influences, come to a place where they find "enough wrong with this Reign of Jesus", that they would take up arms and come in order to . . . . destroy or take over?

3. I'm sure that, by that time, everyone would understand the consequences of going against God, . . . of God's power, and what lies ahead of those who come against God, . . . . . so why would they even attempt that which they should know would be impossible, and they would be quickly defeated and cast into eternal punishment?

4. How would anyone, who sees the love, mercy, and greatness of Jesus/God NOT do anything other than express great admiration, respect, love, and awe?

 

[Veritas]

couldn't say, I'm an amillenialist. I think we have been in the last days since Christ's ascension.

 

[Orion]

Just to quickly side track my own thread for a moment (then back to the topic), for an amillenialist, when you see the "thousand year" part, do you take that as an analogy of this time being a LONG, yet indeterminate amount of time?

 

[Guest]

couldn't say, I'm an amillenialist. I think we have been in the last days since Christ's ascension.

Welcome... I am glad to see another!

 

[biblecatholic]

couldn't say, I'm an amillenialist. I think we have been in the last days since Christ's ascension.

Welcome... I am glad to see another!

Veritas,aLoneVoice
common ground alert!!! sorry guys sorry to make you look bad to the others. j.k.

I agree we are in the last days, since Jesus' time. This is the 1000 yrs.

 

[Veritas]

Looks like you have the amillenialists invading your thread...

for an amillenialist, when you see the "thousand year" part, do you take that as an analogy of this time being a LONG, yet indeterminate amount of time?

Yes, I think apocalyptic literature such as Daniel and Revelation use symbolic language. I think that we need to seek the one intended or literal sense of the text, and do so with the recognition that God in some cases has chosen to convey meaning through symbolism and figures of speech (like the prophet Amos saying: the mountains shall drip with sweet wine. Amos 9:13 to picture eschatological blessings for God's people)

 

[Orion]

Probably more symbolism than what is commonly believed.

For those who are millenialists, would you care to chime in with your thoughts on this topic?

 

[Vic C.]

Most Revelation "teachers" irk me, but anyway, I can answer this from a premillenial point of view, using scripture.

Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season....

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

You would think that people would know of God's wrath and not rebel again, but people are stiff-necked. How many times did Israel rebel? From the premillenial position, it is believed that a "remnant" of man's sin nature remains going into the 1,000 years and manifests in time, ending with Satan seemingly taking advantage of this. We know Satan is always blindsided by his very own pride and doesn't he he can't win.

There's much on this somewhere in the End Times Forum.

Vic

 

[Orion]

Well shoot. I suppose I should have posted this thread IN the "End Times" section. Maybe a mod could move it to that location. :

Anyway, I'm less interested in people not "worrying about God's wrath", but more interested in how SO many people (and from scripture, it appears to be a huge multitude) would even come to a place of rebellion in the sight of the perfect love of God. People have to have a REASON for rebellion, and without the influence of Satan and his minions, I really question how this could happen in the first place.

Then, if it still COULD, with Satan banned from people, why was Satan even necessary, as it would seem that people will be just as bad without such influence. What IS Satan's role in this world, if that's the case?

 

[Vic C.]

... Anyway, I'm less interested in people not "worrying about God's wrath", but more interested in how SO many people (and from scripture, it appears to be a huge multitude) would even come to a place of rebellion in the sight of the perfect love of God. People have to have a REASON for rebellion, and without the influence of Satan and his minions, I really question how this could happen in the first place.

Then, if it still COULD, with Satan banned from people, why was Satan even necessary, as it would seem that people will be just as bad without such influence. What IS Satan's role in this world, if that's the case?

Personally, this is nonessential pondering as far as I'm concerned. I gave the premillenial point of view on how man's sin nature will influence those throughout the 1,000 year period; I also posted scripture showing us that Satan is unbound and deceives the people (nations).

:smt102

 

[antitox]

1. How is sin still able to proliferate so much when Satan and his angels are not there to tempt?

Remember that people will be born during that time whose ancestors survived the trib. The flesh still has its old nature and satan will be released and gather those together who will listen to him.

2. How can SOOOO many people, outside of Satanic influences, come to a place where they find "enough wrong with this Reign of Jesus", that they would take up arms and come in order to . . . . destroy or take over?

In the flesh, it's not that hard. Adam disobeyed didn't he? The flesh can live under God's rule and still want to do its own thing.
Satan was an angel, lived in God's glory, and still rebelled.

3. I'm sure that, by that time, everyone would understand the consequences of going against God, . . . of God's power, and what lies ahead of those who come against God, . . . . . so why would they even attempt that which they should know would be impossible, and they would be quickly defeated and cast into eternal punishment?

Once again, not being resurrected, these people are just like we are today. They have a choice to make. Just because they grow up under God's rule doesn't mean they don't have a life of their own and want to do their own thing. Receiving salvation is just as much an issue for them as it is for us.
Remember, they aren't seeing God the way that a resurrected person can. The flesh absolutely cannot endure that. The millenial reign is that the knowledge of the glory of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea. We're not talking about being bathed in His literal glory. God's reign will be throughout the earth and will stop the animal food chain (the lion will lie down with the ox, etc), but the literal throne of glory described in Revelation isn't just yet.

I figure many will get angry at having to travel overseas every year to worship Jesus, whose glory is not fully seen. They will probably want to use their vacation for something else.

4. How would anyone, who sees the love, mercy, and greatness of Jesus/God NOT do anything other than express great admiration, respect, love, and awe?

At this point, I don't think God Himself will be seen by those people, just as we do not see Him like that today. The heavy stuff isn't until the new earth comes and the New Jerusalem is placed upon it, and everybody has a spiritual body.

The purpose of the millennial reign is to finish out the earth's existence becasue people remain on it which I'm sure were saved in the trib (somehow didn't get the mark), but they had children after them. I guess the Lord wasn't going to just polish everybody off; He let them finish out their lives. He just doesn't come in and smoke everybody, only those who were His enemies. The bible says He smites the earth with the rod of His mouth. It doesn't say that He destroys it yet. It isn't until after the millenium (everything is fully dealt with) that He finally burns up the earth and heavens and creates a new one as 2nd Peter notes.

 

[Orion]

How are these people NOT seeing Jesus? :-?

 

[dmckay]

If you look at your Bible in Revelation 20:7 you'll find that before this multitude of people rebell against God Satan is first released from the Abyss to deceive these people. 7 "When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

One of the main purposes of the Millenial Kingdom is to do away with the last of mankinds possible excuses for rejecting God and Jesus. This is for thoses who would say that if "I had been in the Garden of Eden, a perfect situation in which I walked with god every day I certainly wouldn't have fallen into sin." As we can see from Revelation 20 this argument just isn't true.

 

[Orion]

Hoping this doesn't sound too offending, but that doesn't sound right, and if it IS right, then you HAVE to ask the question, how is it that "the number of them is like the sand of the seashore" of people have come to a place of utter rejection so quickly? If Jesus has set up a Heavenly realm on earth, how in the world would people see some trouble with it? Again, people just don't rebel for no good reason. And 1,000 years will have gone by without satanic influences. "The sand of the seashore" seems to insinuate millions or even billions of people who come against Jesus. . . . . . . . . . . Why???? What purpose would they have in a world where Jesus is among them??? :-? :-? :-?

 

[Vic C.]

Orion, this is in line with what antitox and myself are saying:

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=26274&p=347329#p347329

 

[antitox]

Hoping this doesn't sound too offending, but that doesn't sound right, and if it IS right, then you HAVE to ask the question, how is it that "the number of them is like the sand of the seashore" of people have come to a place of utter rejection so quickly? If Jesus has set up a Heavenly realm on earth, how in the world would people see some trouble with it? Again, people just don't rebel for no good reason. And 1,000 years will have gone by without satanic influences. "The sand of the seashore" seems to insinuate millions or even billions of people who come against Jesus. . . . . . . . . . . Why???? What purpose would they have in a world where Jesus is among them???

Orion, the time of the millennium will not be heavenly. It's still the old earth, the only difference being that with God having intervened, some basic things change in regard to His rule on it. It is by no means ideal or perfect because people still exist there in their old nature. God pretty much stopped the food chain the way it was with nature and let people finish their lives until the appointed time. People still age and die, they still have to work and sweat, the rain and sun continues. Believe me, there is nothing really that super about it. Those people get the same life (though a little better) and they still get married, and do what humans do, etc.

Please do not blow this up in your mind any bigger than it is. It's still the same earth, but just a little better scenario without the accuser running around on it. Honestly, if you want to hear it straight from my end, I think it is better that I have grown up on a corrupt earth rather than the millenium earth. I think that I will be more thankful for what He has done than if I had grown up on a millenium earth where it wasn't quite as bad.

 

[Orion]

Okay, maybe I AM seeing it as "too grand". I am just having a problem with the idea that "multitudes as the sand on the seashore" would rise up against Jesus, who is supposed to be physically on the earth. The epitomy of love and grace, in their midst, yet such a multitude rising up against him of their own free will. I have to wonder why, because you would think that people would be drawn to such glory. :-?

 

[Vic C.]

I'm thinking our faith in mankind and his ability to right his wrongs differ. I just don't have the same faith in humanity as I do in God. I don't believe totally in total depravity, but the influence of our depraved state is very compelling. Also, your "multitudes as the sand on the seashore" should be not taken so literally.

 

[Orion]

Well, I don't take the phrase as literal, but the writer did use it as a description of those who war against God at that time, so I take it to mean a number which may not be able to be counted.

Humanity does have a flaw of depravity, that's for sure. But one would think that they'd be smart enough to recognize a no-win battle, especially if what has been written is taking place, you've read it, and know that your rebellion and war will be ended by "fire coming down from Heaven". Humanity is depraved, sometimes a bit foolish, . . . . but I can't see them being that stupid.

 

[Bick]

MY views as a pre-millennilst:

Certainly, Christ Jesus will be reigning as King of kings and Lord of lords during the millennium. Though Messiah will be reigning as the Prince of peace in that day, it will be a reign based on righteousness and law. The kingdom code will be for all peoples, specifically for Israel, and this code will be as expounded in the sermon on the mount.

As others have said, humans who survived the woes of the tribulation will propagate. And this will be true of all the other nations. They will be sinners of the seed of Adam just as we are today, and therefore those not converted to the truth through the Messiah will be subject to being deceived by Satan who has been loosed from his prison in the abyss.

And this should not be surprising: look at how Satan, the devil, has deceived so many starting with Eve. Peter, in 1 Peter 4:8 says, "your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour." NIV. And our defense is the Word, and our shield of faith, as Paul describes it in Eph. 6:10-18.

Evidently, there will be multitudes at the end of the millennium deceived by Satan because they didn't have the Words of truth in their heart and mind; and this after living in a world of peace and righteousness.

Bick