Bible Study How Did Messiah Fulfill The Torah/Law?

[wavy]

***under revision***

 

[wavy]

bump

 

[JM]

Please read:

http://www.ids.org/pdf/journal/appendix.pdf

http://www.ncbf.net/PDF/jeremiah31.pdf

http://www.ncbf.net/PDF/Moral_Law.pdf

 

[wavy]

Please read:

http://www.ids.org/pdf/journal/appendix.pdf

http://www.ncbf.net/PDF/jeremiah31.pdf

http://www.ncbf.net/PDF/Moral_Law.pdf

Sir, I was wondering which side you were taking, whether for or against me, but now I see that it is against. But first, to try to argue against me, one must realize exactly what it is I am arguing. These writings do not refute my point. The first one argues justification through Messiah's blood atonement and salvation that is by faith and not works. However, I already believe that. So no point is made. You must read what I say before you try to refute it. Secondly, the second one is way off and has nothing to do with anything I said. It also interprets the 31st chapter of Jeremiah and the 10th chapter of Hebrews out of context. Yet even if it did not, nothing in it is against my point. I am not arguing a "moral law" of ten commandments or the entire Torah in the hearts of believers and unbelievers. So this second writing is also dismissed. The third link I have to get to act right. Doesn't seem to be working. I'll check back and tell you my thoughts on it after I read it (if I can)

 

[wavy]

bump

 

[farley]

wavy,

You replied from above...

The first one argues justification through Messiah's blood atonement and salvation that is by faith and not works. However, I already believe that.

While I've been working my way through your Torah posts, your above response caught my eye. Most here seem to feel that believing is all one needs for salvation, I see works to mean obedience to Gods commands.

You have endorsed obedience in your comments. If you don't see obedience as works, please explain the difference from your view.

In Christ,

farley

 

[wavy]

Most here seem to feel that believing is all one needs for salvation.

True. What they don't understand is that they have to KNOW Messiah and what to believe. Indeed that he died for our sins and was raised for our hope of resurrection. But we don't know him, truly, and are not in him if we do not keep his commandments (1 John 2:3-6). This is how we know we are in him. By our obedience. If you just "believe", then you truly don't know the One you claim to believe in.

I see works to mean obedience to Gods commands.

They are. :-D

You have endorsed obedience in your comments. If you don't see obedience as works, please explain the difference from your view.

Same thing, in my view.

 

[farley]

wavy,

Your thoughts on the Torah are interesting, as well as enlightning. But, it seems to me that everything that one needs to know, in order to obtain salvation, is contained in the New Testament. Jesus said...

John 14:15 KJVR
(15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Reviewing the scriptures, the OT is directed to Israel, the Gentiles were excluded. The NT offers salvation to the Gentiles as well, which includes me.

I can see much value in becoming a student of the OT, especially the Torah. I think many things can be clarified by searching the Torah for answers. Your post on "who are the elect" is a wonderful example.

But, I don't see a working knowledge of the Torah as essential to one's salvation.

In Christ,

farley

 

[JM]

Here's one to view: http://torahclub.org/

 

[wavy]

wavy,

Your thoughts on the Torah are interesting, as well as enlightning. But, it seems to me that everything that one needs to know, in order to obtain salvation, is contained in the New Testament. Jesus said...

John 14:15 KJVR
(15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

His commandments are contained in Torah.

Reviewing the scriptures, the OT is directed to Israel, the Gentiles were excluded. The NT offers salvation to the Gentiles as well, which includes me.

Gentiles were not excluded. And the NT is directed to Israel too (primarily, actually). This means there is more insightful things I have yet to tell you. Not that gentiles cannot be saved or anything, but they do join and become one with Yahweh's people through Messiah and inherit the promises.

I can see much value in becoming a student of the OT, especially the Torah. I think many things can be clarified by searching the Torah for answers. Your post on "who are the elect" is a wonderful example.

But, I don't see a working knowledge of the Torah as essential to one's salvation.

Well, if we want to do what Yahweh says to do to the utmost, then Torah is essential. Each man according to his works. Those in Messiah keep his commandments. Only the OT was written when Yahshua said that to his disciples, therefore we can be sure of which commandments he meant.

Anyway, peace.

 

[greyfeather]

farly,

There is a place I remember in the OT in ISAIAH 42. Were a light to the gentiles is promised , so I don't think they were forgotten.



Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God.

 

[JM]

farly,

There is a place I remember in the OT in ISAIAH 42. Were a light to the gentiles is promised , so I don't think they were forgotten.



Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God.

They were not forgotten, but the plan wasn't revealed in the OT, it was revealed by Paul.

As Christians in this age, we need to be aware of modern Galatianism, the mingling of law and grace; the teaching that justification is partly by grace, partly by law, or, that grace is given to enable an otherwise helpless sinner to keep the law. Against this error, the most wide-spread of all, the solemn warnings, the. unanswerable logic, the emphatic declarations of the Epistle to the Galatians are God's conclusive answer.

One study goes on to say:

WHAT THE LAW IS
"Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good" (Rom. 7:12),

"For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin" (Rom. 7:14).

"For I delight in the law of God after the inward man" (Rom. 7:22).

"But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully" (I Tim. 1:8).

"And the law is not of faith" (Gal. 3:12).

WHAT IS GRACE?
"But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared . . . according to his mercy he saved us" (Titus 3:4-5). "That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace, in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:7).

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Rom. 5:8).

THE BELIEVER IS NOT UNDER THE LAW
Romans 6, after declaring the doctrine of the believer's identification with Christ in His death, of which baptism is the symbol (verses 1-10), begins, with verse 11, the declarations of the principles which should govern the walk of the believer-his rule of life. This is the subject of the remaining twelve verses. Verse 14 gives the great principle of his deliverance, not from the guilt of sin that is met by Christ's blood, but from the dominion of sin-his bondage* under it. "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace."

Lest this should lead to the monstrous Antinomianism of saying that therefore a godly life was not important, the Spirit immediately adds: "What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid" (Rom. 6:15). Surely every renewed heart answers 'Amen" to this.

Then Romans 7 introduces another principle of deliverance from law. "Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should he married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter" (Rom. 7:4-6). (This does not refer to the ceremonial law; see verse 7.)

"For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God" (Gal. 2:19).

"But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up, unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster" (Gal. 3:23-25).

"But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man" (I Tim. 1:8-9).





Peace

 

[wavy]

As Christians in this age, we need to be aware of modern Galatianism, the mingling of law and grace;

Wrong. That's not what was going on in Galatians. And if this is the case, then "God" is a hypocrite that can't make up his mind. Because I'm positive that Yahweh had grace in the old covenant.