How do Christians deal with violent verses?

[Drew]

Who are we to question God or God's motives? What God does, God does.

Romans 9:15
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”

I have a concern with this. Suppose the Bible tells us that God does not like black people. Or short people. I suspect that you and most others would choose to quietly decide that this cannot really be true of God. And I think you would be right to do so.

I suggest that if we are honest with ourselves, we must admit that we do, in fact, apply a kind of moral filter to the things that are predicated of God in the Scriptures. For example, consider that set of persons who argue that we should still follow the Law of Moses. You may not be one of those people but that's beside the point. Such people will almost invariably ignore those commandments about stoning adulterers, or women who were not virgins on their wedding day.

So when we read scriptures that God ordered wholesale genocide, we should, I suggest, do our best to see if we can make sense of this in some other than saying "God gets to do what He wants because He is God". To me, there are only two alternatives that enable me to avoid the unthinkable, namely that God wants entire races wiped out to meet some mysterious cosmic principle of justice:

1. God had no choice - He had to order those genocides because, for some reason we cannot fathom, these things had to happen in order for the broader plan of redemption to be realized (analogy: a doctor who administers chemotherapy only seems cruel - the doctor has no other option to defeat the cancer). Note that this possibility casts God in a less than fully omnipotent light. I am comfortable with this, because I believe that many Christians get their concept of divine attributes from the broader culture, not from the Scriptures; I believe that the Bible does not teach that God can do anything He wants to do - the scriptural view of God's power is more nuanced than the simplistic one we get from our general culture. For example, I believe that the scriptures teach that God is limited in what He can do by His prior commitments. I can explain more, if needed.

2. The stuff about God ordering genocides was fabricated by the conquering Israelites to justify their morally reprehensible actions.

Obviously, I suspect that you and others will find view number 2 to be unpalatable since I know that Biblical authority is a big issue on this site. Fair enough.

 

[reba]

For a month now this thread has been member only it is now in the Lounge...

 

[WIP]

I have a concern with this. Suppose the Bible tells us that God does not like black people. Or short people. I suspect that you and most others would choose to quietly decide that this cannot really be true of God. And I think you would be right to do so.

I suggest that if we are honest with ourselves, we must admit that we do, in fact, apply a kind of moral filter to the things that are predicated of God in the Scriptures. For example, consider that set of persons who argue that we should still follow the Law of Moses. You may not be one of those people but that's beside the point. Such people will almost invariably ignore those commandments about stoning adulterers, or women who were not virgins on their wedding day.

So when we read scriptures that God ordered wholesale genocide, we should, I suggest, do our best to see if we can make sense of this in some other than saying "God gets to do what He wants because He is God". To me, there are only two alternatives that enable me to avoid the unthinkable, namely that God wants entire races wiped out to meet some mysterious cosmic principle of justice:

1. God had no choice - He had to order those genocides because, for some reason we cannot fathom, these things had to happen in order for the broader plan of redemption to be realized (analogy: a doctor who administers chemotherapy only seems cruel - the doctor has no other option to defeat the cancer). Note that this possibility casts God in a less than fully omnipotent light. I am comfortable with this, because I believe that many Christians get their concept of divine attributes from the broader culture, not from the Scriptures; I believe that the Bible does not teach that God can do anything He wants to do - the scriptural view of God's power is more nuanced than the simplistic one we get from our general culture. For example, I believe that the scriptures teach that God is limited in what He can do by His prior commitments. I can explain more, if needed.

2. The stuff about God ordering genocides was fabricated by the conquering Israelites to justify their morally reprehensible actions.

Obviously, I suspect that you and others will find view number 2 to be unpalatable since I know that Biblical authority is a big issue on this site. Fair enough.

Drew I cannot find anything in the Bible where God instructs us to do or believe something that goes against His will and we would be righteous in disobeying. We may not like something that God does but I would not want to find myself in disobedience because I disagreed. I try not to lower God to my standards.

 

[Drew]

Drew I cannot find anything in the Bible where God instructs us to do or believe something that goes against His will and we would be righteous in disobeying. We may not like something that God does but I would not want to find myself in disobedience because I disagreed. I try not to lower God to my standards.

Fair enough. I do not want to put you on the spot, but if God asked you to kill your own son, as He asked Abraham to do, would you do it?

My point is that all these God-ordered genocides in the Old Testament create a huge problem for the believer. How would you explain to a non-Christian that your God is "good" and yet ordered the extermination of entire peoples - men, women, and children.

I think the only answer that is not patently absurd is this idea that God had no choice - He had to order these atrocities in order for the grand plan of redemption to proceed (hence the chemotherapy analogy). And even that answer will understandably appear wildly implausible and contrived to a reasonable person. After all, it is much more plausible that the Israelites were doing what humans have, sadly, always done - demonstrate the savageness that appears inherent in our species. It's a really big problem ,I think.

How we respond to jihadists who call for death of infidels? With understandable outrage. Yet our own religious tradition has the same blood on it,

 

[Lewis]

How many here would kill their own son if God asks you to. That is a tough one, who has enough faith in god on this board to do so ?

 

[jasonc]

How many here would kill their own son if God asks you to. That is a tough one, who has enough faith in god on this board to do so ?

what would be the point of him asking us?

 

[Adstar]

I disagree Drew. Jesus did not bring an end to sin. That' evident in the world today. Jesus took away the power of sin to kill us in the second death. Sin will be happening until the final judgement and we are transformed into perfect sinless beings.

 

[WIP]

Fair enough. I do not want to put you on the spot, but if God asked you to kill your own son, as He asked Abraham to do, would you do it?

My point is that all these God-ordered genocides in the Old Testament create a huge problem for the believer. How would you explain to a non-Christian that your God is "good" and yet ordered the extermination of entire peoples - men, women, and children.

I think the only answer that is not patently absurd is this idea that God had no choice - He had to order these atrocities in order for the grand plan of redemption to proceed (hence the chemotherapy analogy). And even that answer will understandably appear wildly implausible and contrived to a reasonable person. After all, it is much more plausible that the Israelites were doing what humans have, sadly, always done - demonstrate the savageness that appears inherent in our species. It's a really big problem ,I think.

How we respond to jihadists who call for death of infidels? With understandable outrage. Yet our own religious tradition has the same blood on it,

Personally, to dabble with hypothetical situations is a bit of a waste of time. I mean no offense. My hope is that whatever God would ask me to do, I would do it without hesitation. Would I hesitate? Perhaps. God tested Abraham's faith and he passed. If I was certain that it was in fact God that was making the request I expect that I would be obedient. How many of us would deny Jesus with a gun pointed at our temple? How many of us would get out of a boat to walk on water? How many of us would be able to repair a crippled body, heal a sick person, or restore life to a dead body?

"Ye of little faith" is a phrase that applies to nearly every one of us. Is it any wonder why we need Jesus?

When I say that we are not qualified to question God, I'm not talking about our lack of faith. I'm talking about questioning God's morals. God is good and we are not. I don't believe we are in a position to question God's ethics. I think Job 38 puts this quite clearly.

 

[Drew]

I disagree Drew. Jesus did not bring an end to sin. That' evident in the world today. Jesus took away the power of sin to kill us in the second death. Sin will be happening until the final judgement and we are transformed into perfect sinless beings.

I am not sure I ever said that Jesus brought an end to sin. What I intended to say was that sin was "defeated" at the cross. That is not quite the same thing.