How do True believers come to Believe ?

[savedbygrace57]

I smell Calvinism? It stinks

Thats how people become belivers, by the power of God, the same power God used to raise up His son from the dead.

eph 1:


18The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

19And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe according to the working of his mighty power,
20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead,

 

[mondar]

I smell Calvinism? It stinks

This is one of the best examples of an "Ad-Hominem" argument that I have seen.

 

[Strangelove]

This is one of the best examples of an "Ad-Hominem" argument that I have seen.

A better example would have been if he had said "you smell like a stinking Calvanist".

As it is the guy is just pointing out the system / organization and showing his displeasure at it.

It's not a personal attack.

I for one can now understand the OP's position a lot better now as before I was really confused on his position regarding the topic.

Ho-hum.

Doc.

 

[mondar]

A better example would have been if he had said "you smell like a stinking Calvanist".

As it is the guy is just pointing out the system / organization and showing his displeasure at it.

It's not a personal attack.

I for one can now understand the OP's position a lot better now as before I was really confused on his position regarding the topic.

Ho-hum.

Doc.

The guy is not pointing out anything. He is most likely ignorant of Calvinism and "expresses displeasure" at something he is clueless about.

 

[stovebolts]

I smell Calvinism? It stinks

Hello AC,
Welcome to the forums. Please acquaint yourself with our TOS as the above comment does not add to any type of meaningful discussion.

Now then, let's all keep this discussion clean and not muddle it up with banter.

Thank you.

 

[xAmbientxCatalystx]

But it's okay for someone to call me ignorant?

I make a state regarding a set of what I believe heretical doctrines, and someone else makes a personal attack on me and I'm the one scolded? Perhaps I had the wrong impression of the site after all.

And for the unpleasant gentleman who called me ignorant, I would beg to differ. I'm very informed of the teachings of John Calvin, from the history of the murders behind him to the heresy of the doctrines he held.

I'm far from ignorant, and your comment wasn't appreciated, though, I must admit, it is to be expected of the Calvinist crowd.

 

[mondar]

But it's okay for someone to call me ignorant?

I make a state regarding a set of what I believe heretical doctrines, and someone else makes a personal attack on me and I'm the one scolded? Perhaps I had the wrong impression of the site after all.

And for the unpleasant gentleman who called me ignorant, I would beg to differ. I'm very informed of the teachings of John Calvin, from the history of the murders behind him to the heresy of the doctrines he held.

I'm far from ignorant, and your comment wasn't appreciated, though, I must admit, it is to be expected of the Calvinist crowd.

To xAmbientxCatalystx: AKA Pelagius:

It is a "statement" not a "state."

If you are not ignorant of Calvinism, can you name one book you ever read written by a Calvinist on Calvinism? I have never seen Calvinists properly represented by firebreathing name caller types.

 

[stovebolts]

xAmbientxCatalystx,

I only ask that the TOS be upheld. An agreement every member agreed to when they joined the forum.

If an issue arises where you believe another has violated the TOS, please report the thread, or feel free to send a PM to the Moderators of that particular forum.

Thank you.

 

[savedbygrace57]

The scriptures indicates that Christ Blood alone makes those He died for into Believers ! This is seen here Heb 9:14

14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

The writer of hebrews in demonstration the Superior quality of the Blood of Christ over that of Levitical sacrifices, He writes that the Blood of Christ purges our consciences from dead works [ all religious works done while dead in sin] to serve the Living God ! Now how can we serve the Living God but by #1 Ourselves being made to Live [Spiritually] and #2 by Faith and Believing. So it must be that the Blood of Christ effected both !

Also Rev 1:5-6

5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Christ hath washed us from our sins in His own Blood, resulting in us being made Kings and Priests unto God and His Father.

The word made is poieo and means :

with the names of things made, to produce, construct, form, fashion

One way to say it is:and has formed us into a Kingdom, to be priests to God, His Father--to Him be ascribed the glory and the power until the Ages of the Ages. Amen.

Now, to be by His blood alone, formed into a Kingdom, to be made Spiritual Priest, then His Blood work made us believers, for how can one be made a Spiritual Kingdom and Priest's without being made Believers ?

So it is, The Blood of Christ alone accomplished this, so to Him alone should be ascribed Glory and Dominion !

 

[childeye]

I believe we believe through revelation of an undeniable Truth presented to the ignorant.
The Truth that God's Love is one that would sacrifice Himself for us all upon a cross of torture is what the blood is pertaining to.

 

[savedbygrace57]

I believe we believe through revelation of an undeniable Truth presented to the ignorant.
The Truth that God's Love is one that would sacrifice Himself for us all upon a cross of torture is what the blood is pertaining to.

You are way off. The Blood purges those Christ died for from dead works to serving the Living God..Heb 9:14

14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

This is the Testimony of scripture regarding the Blood of Christ I am witnessing about..

To serve the Living God requires a Living Faith, so consequently the Blood of Christ met that requirement..

 

[childeye]

You are way off. The Blood purges those Christ died for from dead works to serving the Living God..Heb 9:14

14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

This is the Testimony of scripture regarding the Blood of Christ I am witnessing about..

To serve the Living God requires a Living Faith, so consequently the Blood of Christ met that requirement..

I don't disagree with you SBG, although you think you disagree with me.

God is Love Right? So what is this living faith pointed at if not eternal Love? Where did it come from if not inspired by God Himself? For this is the eternal Spirit. And what are these dead works but through unbelief in ignorance of that Love Who is God? As you put it "religious". Respectfully you've said nothing that describes how I'm way off as best as I can discern. So I am open for you to correct me how the sacrifice of the Lamb is not seeing this Love in action through the Christ, the True Image of God in a man, whom without sin became sin to put away sin. Correct me how this belief is not belief through revelation of the Christ. What is moral knowledge if not the revealing of, Who God is, how He is, what He does, and why He does it?

 

[savedbygrace57]

In order for one to believe the Gospel, certain things must first occur, because by nature, man is blinded by satan and in a state of unbelief when it concerns the Gospel as Per 2 Cor 4:3,4

3But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

All men[Elect and non elect] by nature are lost, are alienated from the Life of God, and the Gospel is being hid from them, and they are in unbelief.

Before one can believe the Gospel, they must be first rescued from the control of satan. Notice vs 4 above, those who believe not have their minds blinded by the god of this world !, So they are under his control.

Also, Before we can believe the Gospel, we must have been given a Revelation of the Spiritual details of the Gospel , and be capacitated to receive them ! The Gospel must be revealed to Faith, which is a fruit of the Spirit Rom 1:16-17

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Notice the word revealed ! It is the greek word apokalyptō:


to uncover, lay open what has been veiled or covered up

a) disclose, make bare

2) to make known, make manifest, disclose what before was unknown

Paul spoke by experience, because he testified that he received it [The Gospel] by revelation Gal 1:11-12

11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

This is basically the same word revelation as used in Rom 1:17 revealed !

This is True because the Spiritual details of the Gospel cannot be received by the natural man 1 Cor 2:14

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

One cannot receive a spiritual message without spiritually discerning its Truthfulness ! Because we must compare spiritual details with spiritual detail vs 13

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Paul is speaking of the Gospel here in vs 13 as spiritual things ! Spiritual facts with Spiritual Facts !

So before believing in Christ through the Gospel, one must first be saved from satan's control, his kingdom of darkness Col 1:13

13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

And , we must have the Gospel revealed to us, made know to us and we must be spiritually capacitated to receive its spiritual details !

 

[MarkT]

Ps 80:

17Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself.


18So will not we go back from thee: quicken us, and we will call upon thy name.

19Turn us again, O LORD God of hosts, cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved.


eph 1:

19And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe according to the working of his mighty power,

Many today in organized religion are totally ignorant as to how and why some come to believe in Christ Jesus, and His Gospel, and others do not.

Believing, contrary to popular opinion is not the result of man exercising his freewill or of his making a choice, but is the result of God's quickening, His Power.

David in our psalms here crys " Quicken us, and we will call upon thy name "


This gives us to understand why it is written acts 2:21

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

rom 10:13

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The whosoever must be the quickened, as for it is written ps 80:


18So will not we go back from thee: quicken us, and we will call upon thy name.

Also vs 19

19Turn us again, O LORD God of hosts, cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved.

The word for quicken is the hebrew word:chayah :

to live, have life, remain alive, sustain life, live prosperously, live for ever, be quickened, be alive, be restored to life or health

a) (Qal)
1) to live
a) to have life
b) to continue in life, remain alive
c) to sustain life, to live on or upon
d) to live (prosperously)
2) to revive, be quickened
a) from sickness
b) from discouragement
c) from faintness
d) from death

Believing and calling upon upon the name of the LORD to be saved are one and the same thing, and if quickening is needed for the one, its needed for the other.

This is True because if we read what Paul writes to the believers in Ephesus, and reminds them how Sovereign mercy found them, observe:

eph 2:

1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

He found them dead in trespasses and sins !

None can believe on or call upon upon the LORD in this condition, Spiritually dead.

This is to be spiritually in a state of alienation from God !

Col 1:21

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works,[Dead in trespasses and sins] yet now hath he reconciled

None can believe or call upon the name of the Lord in this condition !

I agree with most of what you said until you started talking about being spiritually dead.

Let's say man is evil. If we begin with that premise, which comes from the mouth of our Lord, then belief is the work of God. As Jesus said to his disciples, believing in him is doing the work of God. Let's say God in his mercy gives men a spirit of understanding so that they come to believe.

1. It is the will of God.

2. It is the spirit in a man that causes him to understand the teachings of our Lord - Job 32:8 RSV
But it is the spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that makes him understand.

3. By understanding, the spirit and the soul are divided. Our Father puts rings on our fingers and he gives us many magnificent gifts.

4. A new wine skin is created. The new wine skin is a type of Christ, our new habitation.

5. New wine is poured into the new wine skin - the Holy Spirit is the new wine.

6. The Spirit opens our eyes. He compels us to believe. He leads us beside the still waters. He restores our soul.

7. And lest we stand naked before God, He gives us unspotted garments, washed by the blood of the covenant for the forgiveness of sin. Matthew 26:28 RSV for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.


As for the god of this world, what if I said the desire for money is the root of all evil? Money and the desire for it has blinded men. Would you agree? Don't just take this one statement by itself. I'm leading up to something. Note Jesus was tempted with kingdoms, power and authority. All those things were the devil's to give.

Now to the support. Jesus said they loved the places of honor, speaking of the priests. Then you have the money changers in the temple. They loved riches more than they loved God. Imagine the power and the authority they had over the people. All those things were in the devil's power to give.

Now you might say shiny gold and the pursuit of riches would not necessarily blind men to the truth. But recall the rich man who walked away because he could not give up his possessions.

Would gold blind men to the truth? Yes, if it is wrapped up in religion and tradition and flowing robes and pointy hats and blind idols and golden calves and positions of honor that can be seen, as opposed to the things that can not be seen, and power and authority, and scribes who are blind, and being blind themselves, they lead the blind away from the truth.

 

[ivdavid]

So if God chooses for me to be saved then I will be saved, period. Correct?....Even if I never hear the gospel?

Yes, God chooses those to be saved and they will be saved. God also chooses to save a person through a particular process and that process entails the preaching of the Gospel to him, regenerating him by the Spirit, convicting this hearer of sin in him, granting him repentance and gifting him faith in Christ, adopting him in Christ, sanctifying him and preserving him until the final glorification.

So for example, if I feel that I am saved and for every method of measuring seem to be saved, yet later in life turn away from God. Then what?

If one turns away from believing in Christ, such never did truly believe in Christ and was never a regenerated believer. Think about it - one can believe in Christ only when he is convinced that there is no other hope of salvation. Such a one to again believe in something else proves the previous statement wrong.

In other words, if I were predestined by God for salvation yet consciously choose to ignore, reject, and hate God am I still predestined to heaven?

Predestination does not simply involve the end result - it involves every step of the process leading to the end result. See, man inherently ignores/rejects and hates God - this is the default position of all men in the flesh - without exception. That God regenerates men to work out good in him is evidence enough of this. God sees no reason to regenerate such a God-hating rebel/sinner, given that such a rebel can only disobey God's law - God does it because of His own grace,mercy and compassion. Since it is God who begins a new work in this sinner independent of what the sinner has done - He has no reason to stop this work which He has purposed in Himself. If the work began independent of the depravity of man in the flesh, the work shall continue independent of the sinfulness of the flesh. Overcoming the works of the flesh is an integral part of the sanctification process.

If I am not predestined to heaven, yet love God and actively seek a relationship with Him am I still not getting to spend eternity with Him?

All mankind is born in the flesh. All in the flesh can do nothing but disobey God's law - because of sin in the flesh. The flesh profits nothing, only the Spirit is life. Herein, man in the flesh needs to be regenerated by the Spirit with a new heart and a renewed spirit. By the working of the Spirit, the new regenerated creature is no longer in the flesh but in the spirit. Henceforth, this regenerated man is preserved by grace through faith in Christ based on what Christ has done and continues to do in him.

So, if one has the love of God shed abroad in his heart, he must be regenerated and all who are regenerated will be preserved unto glorification.

 

[ivdavid]

Doesn't the Gospels represent the power of God?

It does...whether causatively or instrumentally makes the difference in our respective beliefs. I believe that if man were to simply hear the Gospel, with no working of the Spirit in him, he would never put his faith in Christ. This is precisely why the Spirit of God must work in man and regenerate him to accept the Gospel and consequently love God with a heart of flesh instead of hate Him with a heart of stone. The power of God is made manifest by the Gospels instrumentally - because it is the Gospel of Christ that the Spirit works to engrave in our hearts.

I am an unbeliever. I come to you and ask you what is the best way to come to believe in Christ. What is your answer?

"Believing" something is to hold that thing as true and not false. And this is something that goes on each time a person hears any premise. If I were to say to an unbeliever that he is a rebel hater of God, either he accepts it as true or rejects it as false. No man in the flesh can accept the previous statement as true unless the Spirit of God were to impress this truth upon him through regeneration and convict him in just the right manner to lead him to repentance and yet not push him under the crushing weight of condemnation - a balance found solely in the faith of Christ - Christ being the sinner's only hope.

 

[John 8:32]

How do they?

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

The Father must draw us.

 

[childeye]

How do they?

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

The Father must draw us.

A person must have the Love of God abiding in their heart to believe in the one sent by God.