How do you choose a church?

[gustokitty]

Ugh. "Coming to Christ out of conviction of sin" is not the same thing as coming to Christ and then requesting forgiveness of sin. The other poster was assuming all came to Christ the same way or for the same reason. "Out of conviction of sin" meaning she/he realized she was a sinner and needed forgiveness cuz she was personally convicted of her sin, perhaps via the Holy Spirit.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Ugh. "Coming to Christ out of conviction of sin" is not the same thing as coming to Christ and then requesting forgiveness of sin. The other poster was assuming all came to Christ the same way or for the same reason. "Out of conviction of sin" meaning she/he realized she was a sinner and needed forgiveness cuz she was personally convicted of her sin, perhaps via the Holy Spirit.

So what you're saying is the conviction of sin came later?

 

[Corn Pop]

As corrupt as Christianity is, all it does is validate the scriptures. If Christianity was in harmony and all the churches had all the same teachings and gospel and some Pastors were not robbing God with there private jets and luxury abodes why the church starves, then the scriptures would be a lie.

 

[gustokitty]

So what you're saying is the conviction of sin came later?

For me it did. After I was blessed with accepting the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit then began convicting and changing me. That's also how it was for most people I knew. Some came to the Lord out of desperation on what their lifestyle was doing to them, but I personally don't consider that conviction of sin. I have read commentary that says conviction of sin, through the law brings those to Jesus. Scripture may say that. But it isn't the only way people came to Jesus and then the Father. I don't recall that with the apostles. How about you, Jethro? What was your experience?

 

[Corn Pop]

One can only be convicted if they are under a law right?. You broke this Law so your convicted. So if you not under any Law but under Grace then sin has no power over you. All have fallen short and sin was in the world before the Law was given but if your not under the Law it can't convict you. If you live by the law then it convicts you.

For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us:

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How about you, Jethro? What was your experience?

I knew I had no part of God and that I would not go to be with him when I died. And I knew that was true because of my sin. And so I started acting like a Christian, trying to do the right thing. But the harsh reality set in that I could not get from here to there through doing right, for sin was the greater power in me. Then I heard the gospel and how God understood my slavery to sin and that I could not be set free from it in my own power and that he wanted to forgive my sin and give me a new life. That's how I came to salvation. It was always about the conviction of sin from the beginning. Jesus describes the way I came to him here:

"9And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: 10“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11“The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12‘I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13“But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14“I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”" (Luke 18:9-14 NASB bold mine)

The way to Christ is through the conviction of sin and the asking of forgiveness for that sin. One has not come to Christ until they do that. They may be curious inquirers before that, but one doesn't actually come to Christ and be accepted by Him in salvation until they ask for and receive forgiveness for their sin. At which point they receive the Holy Spirit and are changed into new creations. It is required that one be born again by the Spirit, not just made new through the vain attempt to be a good person.

The reason I said I'm guessing that most of us came to Christ through the conviction of sin is because everyone who is born again is born again because they were convicted of their sins and asked God to forgive them. One is not born again until they do that. Attending a Christian rock concert and liking it does not make one born again. Attending church and liking it does not make one born again. Only the conviction of sin and the receiving of God's forgiveness for that sin makes one born again.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

One can only be convicted if they are under a law right?

Everyone who sins is under the law.

"8If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF,” you are doing well. 9But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors." (James 2:8 NASB bold mine)

To be under the law means to be under the condemnation of the law. That's the main way that Christians aren't under the law anymore. It doesn't mean they don't have to 'keep' the law. It means through their faith, Christ's blood removes the guilt of the sin they commit and so they are no longer under the condemnation of the law. There is no condemnation of law for those who do right, and for those who are cleansed by the blood of Christ when they don't do right.

If you live by the law then it convicts you.

Living by the law does not mean seeking to perform the righteousness of the law. Living by the law means you are seeking to be justified by the law. But since there is no justification possible by keeping the law for justification you invariably will still continue to sin despite your best efforts to do right. But as a Christian operating in the power of the Holy Spirit you will be able to do right and the law will not be able to condemn you. But even when you don't do right the blood of Christ wipes away the transgression removing the power of the law to condemn you.

 

[MustangGirl]

We landed at our church by nothing more or less than a God-incidence. We'd been occasionally attending a very large church...you know, coffee bar, rock band, stadium seating...but found it cold and lifeless. We were watching the news one night and saw a story on a local church that was doing a Christmas outreach. The church's name was identical to a church we had attended in another state. We looked it up online and decided to check it out that Sunday. 4 weeks later we went forward for baptism and membership...and now it's the center of our life. We are active in our Sunday School class, we just went through a discipleship study on Wednesday nights and will disciple another couple starting in July, I sing in the choir and at the start of the new school year, I'll be teaching math to the high schoolers at the academy associated with our church. God does things HIS way!

 

[Silmarien]

The reason I said I'm guessing that most of us came to Christ through the conviction of sin is because everyone who is born again is born again because they were convicted of their sins and asked God to forgive them. One is not born again until they do that. Attending a Christian rock concert and liking it does not make one born again. Attending church and liking it does not make one born again. Only the conviction of sin and the receiving of God's forgiveness for that sin makes one born again.

Well, I'm not born again, nor chrismated/confirmed or anything else that would make me feel comfortable getting my status changed around here. Not quite a nonbeliever--I think the evidence for the Resurrection is very good, but it's going to take a while for that to sink in properly after fighting it for two decades.

But I feel like conviction of sin as the first step only works if you already believe in Christianity. It's entirely possible to think you're on a course for self-destruction and not see anyway out. Conviction of sin doesn't make much of a difference if you don't have the faith required to do anything about it, and if the steps are backwards, which is the real reason you came to Christ?

I don't like the whole "ask and receive forgiveness and be immediately transformed" thing, though, since either 1) it's an oversimplification, or 2) Calvin's right and I'm reprobate. One of these things seems way more likely to me than the other, and I have just enough faith that it isn't the one that makes me the angstiest Calvinist ever.

 

[Corn Pop]

Teaches me the bible is hot on the pull.

A Church that teaches people to obey Jesus teachings is what my vote would be. Not sure how many are around. Many of you go to Church so i have a genuine question about "teaches me the bible", how often does the teachings of Jesus get taught at your Church and the teaching to obey those teachings of Christ?

For example, when was the last time you heard this preached and talked about at church service. Maybe last week for some, maybe never for others. Im just interested to know if Churches teach the teachings of Jesus himself.

"But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called teachers for one is your teacher, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant."

Call no man by a exalted title is one teaching. Do you call the Pope the Pope?. Why dont we obey Jesus teachings and refer to him by his name and catholics can refer to him as brother. What has happened to the teachings of Jesus.

Anyone known a church to kick someone out for serving mammon and told them to come back when they quit there job as they cannot serve both God and money, or is it welcome to church faithful servant. That is the hardest commandment and is the commandment Jesus gave of love God and love one another as i have loved you. If anyone works for anything material, a house, car, boat, a new kettle, TV, anything at all for themselves they are acturally serving mammon. "I'm working for a new car", that is serving mammon. "I'm saving to buy a house", that is serving mammon. Its working for money to buy oneself material goods. Serving money. Cant serve two masters. There was no money in the garden of Eden and there is no money in Heaven, somewhere along the way it was introduced to get everyone hooked on serving mammon and not God or there on the streets how can one live with no income. So i believe there is a very fine line but im not saying working or having a income is bad it just depends.

Thats the true depth of scripture and the teachings of Jesus.

 

[Winnie]

We landed at our church by nothing more or less than a God-incidence. We'd been occasionally attending a very large church...you know, coffee bar, rock band, stadium seating...but found it cold and lifeless. We were watching the news one night and saw a story on a local church that was doing a Christmas outreach. The church's name was identical to a church we had attended in another state. We looked it up online and decided to check it out that Sunday. 4 weeks later we went forward for baptism and membership...and now it's the center of our life. We are active in our Sunday School class, we just went through a discipleship study on Wednesday nights and will disciple another couple starting in July, I sing in the choir and at the start of the new school year, I'll be teaching math to the high schoolers at the academy associated with our church. God does things HIS way!

Sounds like the way a church should be. I have to say I was envious when I read that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Not quite a nonbeliever--I think the evidence for the Resurrection is very good, but it's going to take a while for that to sink in properly after fighting it for two decades.

Being a believer is more than just believing that Christ existed and that he was really crucified and resurrected. The believing that saves is the trusting that one does that Christ's work on the cross is payment for sin that God requires so that we can be reconciled to Him. Placing your trust in Christ is different than just believing he exists. Many people know and believe the story of about Jesus and what he did on the cross, but few actually place their trust in what they know he did on the cross.

Perhaps that's where you're at. You know all about the story of Christ and what he did, and you actually believe it to be a real story, but you have yet to actually place your trust in what Christ did for you on the cross. It's in that moment of trusting in God's forgiveness that a person then receives the Holy Spirit and becomes transformed in the very core of their being. From there it will take the rest of one's human life to learn to walk in the newness of spiritual life God has placed inside of them, just as a natural baby learns to grow up and walk in the inner potential that he was born with from the womb.

But I feel like conviction of sin as the first step only works if you already believe in Christianity. It's entirely possible to think you're on a course for self-destruction and not see anyway out. Conviction of sin doesn't make much of a difference if you don't have the faith required to do anything about it

Which is why God gives you that faith as a gracious free gift. What happens is God speaks the testimony of Christ into the heart of a person proving to them it's real. That is the very essence of faith--knowing something is true that you can not see. Through the convincing/ convicting power of His own testimony God shows us that the story of Christ is true and that you can trust in it. It's a supernatural ability to know something is true that you can not see for yourself or prove for yourself--by his power you just know that it's true. From there most people choose to not believe what God has shown them in their heart to be true. A few do choose to believe it and place their trust in what God has shown them to be true and they are saved.

That's the 'grace' in salvation. 'Faith' is God's gracious gift to us to believe something that we need to believe in order to be saved, but which we have no capacity whatsoever in and of ourselves to know is true. That's why the Bible speaks of salvation being entirely by God's grace and mercy, as opposed to salvation being given on the basis of good deeds performed. Salvation can only come through the forgiveness of sin, not through the doing of good things to somehow offset what we've done wrong. It's impossible to be saved that way. The price is too high to pay for your sins that way. The only way to handle a debt like that is to have it mercifully erased by God's love and to let God pay that price through his Son Jesus' death on the cross.

or 2) Calvin's right and I'm reprobate. One of these things seems way more likely to me than the other, and I have just enough faith that it isn't the one that makes me the angstiest Calvinist ever.

Do yourself a favor.....forget about Calvin. Just read the Bible for yourself.

 

[Corn Pop]

Trust and believing in Christ is listening and obeying his teachings that lead people on the right path, something many people would rather put to the side and make excuses to try justify Jesus teachings in there own context because they dont like what he said because the truth hurts. Thats the truth. Its all about the cross and just believing in him, not obeying his teachings.

Jesus didn't really mean that, it doesn't matter what he said really as long as you just believe. Thats rubbish.

Whoever believes in him. Believing in him is obeying his teachings. How can someone believe in Jesus if they hear his words but dont do what he says.

Jesus spoke many very easy literal teachings.

"And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."

Oh he didn't really mean it like that it doesn't really matter if we do or not thats not a issue.

 

[Silmarien]

Being a believer is more than just believing that Christ existed and that he was really crucified and resurrected. The believing that saves is the trusting that one does that Christ's work on the cross is payment for sin that God requires so that we can be reconciled to Him. Placing your trust in Christ is different than just believing he exists. Many people know and believe the story of about Jesus and what he did on the cross, but few actually place their trust in what they know he did on the cross.

Yep, that's why I don't really consider myself a believer. It's just that the binary believer vs. nonbeliever breaks down when you're transitioning from one to the other. I feel like I'm constantly grasping for a faith that's just out of reach, and half expect that at some point, I'm going to turn around and realize that I've been lured a good way down the path without noticing. My path just went straight through the heart of the forest first.

Perhaps that's where you're at. You know all about the story of Christ and what he did, and you actually believe it to be a real story, but you have yet to actually place your trust in what Christ did for you on the cross. It's in that moment of trusting in God's forgiveness that a person then receives the Holy Spirit and becomes transformed in the very core of their being. From there it will take the rest of one's human life to learn to walk in the newness of spiritual life God has placed inside of them, just as a natural baby learns to grow up and walk in the inner potential that he was born with from the womb.

Mmm, I'm not so sure. I was never a nominal Christian. I was in the enemy camp for a while, so even just accepting that Christianity could be true was mind-shattering. I've come to accept the Resurrection on evidentiary grounds. Everything else... well, every time I tried to dive out into the far reaches of theological liberalism, I got the distinct feeling that I wasn't supposed to do that, and it seems self-defeating to ignore that. I made a conscious decision months ago, and I'm definitely not in the same place I was before, so it's strange to think that transformation wouldn't have begun just then. I'm just not convinced that the effects of willful, persistent disbelief go away over night, and that kind of jumbles everything.

On the other hand, I had a pretty hilarious time last night when I wanted to check out a new church. Drove around the neighborhood a bit, ended up in the parking lot twice, got to the door once, but couldn't quite work up the nerve to open it (I was late by then). Which absolutely does feel like a good metaphor for where I am.

Do yourself a favor.....forget about Calvin. Just read the Bible for yourself.

No worries, haha. I tossed Calvin out the window so hard that the entire Protestant Reformation and half of Catholicism followed him!

 

[MustangGirl]

Anyone known a church to kick someone out for serving mammon and told them to come back when they quit there job as they cannot serve both God and money, or is it welcome to church faithful servant. That is the hardest commandment and is the commandment Jesus gave of love God and love one another as i have loved you. If anyone works for anything material, a house, car, boat, a new kettle, TV, anything at all for themselves they are acturally serving mammon. "I'm working for a new car", that is serving mammon. "I'm saving to buy a house", that is serving mammon. Its working for money to buy oneself material goods. Serving money. Cant serve two masters. There was no money in the garden of Eden and there is no money in Heaven, somewhere along the way it was introduced to get everyone hooked on serving mammon and not God or there on the streets how can one live with no income. So i believe there is a very fine line but im not saying working or having a income is bad it just depends.

Say what? There's a BIG difference between collecting wealth just to collect wealth and working to provide for your family. Tell me how i am "serving mammon" when I am working for our basic needs, food, clothing, shelter. WORKING for a new car or saving to buy a house is wise stewardship of our resources, rather than accruing debt, saving to buy is wise. Material goods are not in and of themselves evil. I'm sure most folks I know appreciate that I buy and wear clothes. I'm fairly certain that everyone is happy to be able to go to the grocery store to keep their families from starving to death. And there's also the idea of being able to give to further the church, support missionaries, things like that.

 

[Corn Pop]

Say what? There's a BIG difference between collecting wealth just to collect wealth and working to provide for your family. Tell me how i am "serving mammon" when I am working for our basic needs, food, clothing, shelter. WORKING for a new car or saving to buy a house is wise stewardship of our resources, rather than accruing debt, saving to buy is wise. Material goods are not in and of themselves evil. I'm sure most folks I know appreciate that I buy and wear clothes. I'm fairly certain that everyone is happy to be able to go to the grocery store to keep their families from starving to death. And there's also the idea of being able to give to further the church, support missionaries, things like that.

How is working to save to buy a house wise. Is Gods daily bread not enough, its working to gain material things for the future and building worldly treasures. Thats not Jesus teachings. Jesus teaching is your daily bread is enough and give the rest to the needs of others rather than focusing on yourself.

Dont get me wrong, its more where the focus of work is. If one is serving money or God. Having a job is working and helping grow society and paying ones needs, so its not serving money, but its where the focus is.

Most people, I would say 99% only work to gain things for themself, like a car, house, boat, and material riches, not just pay there needs. That is serving mammon. Why do people work, to buy themselves things, not just pay there needs. They want a bit of luxury on the side for all that hard work.

Why do people pray to God asking for there daily bread yet have saving in there bank, because just in case of emergency and God does not provide there daily bread they might need mammon, no faith God will provide there daily bread spiritual and material. A mega church is a good example, no faith God will provide next week so they are covered in gold and have fat investments why people in need go without.

God knows the heart of every man and church.

 

[MustangGirl]

Most people, I would say 99% only work to gain things for themself, like a car, house, boat, and material riches, not just pay there needs. That is serving mammon. Why do people work, to buy themselves things, not just pay there needs. They want a bit of luxury on the side for all that hard work.

You need to learn how to do some research dude. First of all, MOST people are working to survive. (google it). Second of all, if I'm working to buy a nice TV or a new car, what's it to you? Am I asking you to buy it for me? No, I'm not. What about the computer you're typing on (or smart phone)...is that a need or a want? Talking about how "selfish" people are while utilizing things you don't need (computer, smart phone, internet connection) seems rather hypocritical...might want to check into the log in your eye before you fuss about the mote in your brother's eye.

 

[Corn Pop]

You need to learn how to do some research dude. First of all, MOST people are working to survive. (google it). Second of all, if I'm working to buy a nice TV or a new car, what's it to you? Am I asking you to buy it for me? No, I'm not. What about the computer you're typing on (or smart phone)...is that a need or a want? Talking about how "selfish" people are while utilizing things you don't need (computer, smart phone, internet connection) seems rather hypocritical...might want to check into the log in your eye before you fuss about the mote in your brother's eye.

Where did I say I was innocent?. What you do is your choice not mine, im not telling you what to do.

Not striving for worldly wealth and treasures and just take your needs and give to others in need. Its Jesus teaching of how to have a good system, if the Church worked like that, it would be a much better place. Everyones needs are taken care of through the love and giving of others as well as the needs of themself.

 

[Corn Pop]

Anyone see this today?. Its easy to talk the talk but much harder to walk the walk.

They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles. All the believers were together and had everything in common. They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need.

And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

 

[Corn Pop]

How do i choose a church?. If it teaches the correct scriptures. Must teach the acturally scriptures. And a church that doesn't name it after themself. That is another thing when choosing a church, if the ministry is named after themself then its obviously not God's Ministry.

So teaches the correct scriptures and is not named after themself are two things I must check when finding a church. Oh, and who speaks great words and says buy my books and or tithe. 2 Peter 2:3