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How do you understand this scripture

abide

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Matthew 24…12"Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.13"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.14"This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Revelation 14. 9-10
9Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.



There have been lots of comments from churches and those who are acquainted with the bible. They believe that once you are saved you cannot lose your salvation. I believed that too but the above scriptures tend to baffle me a bit.
  • IF those who ENDURE will be saved, would not the reverse be true, IF you do not ENDURE you will not be saved. I have often wondered about this text as this is the one that those who believe that you can lose your salvation.
  • IF anyone is saved have accepted Christ and because of the conditions during this time they received the mark and worship the beast.. we can see the result..
Revelation 14.4 Those who follow the Lamb are not defiled. So those who follow the beast are defiled.

What is described in Revelation has not taken place, so none of us knows how we will deal with this when
the time comes.

Your comments please..
 
I'm no theologian (clearly). My take is that there are genuine Christians and false conversions. I live in the South, "The Bible Belt" ("1,000 miles wide, 1 inch deep"). There's plenty of active church people who are just as bad--sometimes worse--than people in and of the world who don't even bother giving Christ a second thought. I think Truth has an appeal, even if some people can't/won't/don't fully accept it and live it out...to be fair, living out Christianity is an ongoing process, and its often difficult.

Ramble ramble...I guess I'm saying that I'm leaning towards "perseverance of the saints." --If-- one is a genuinely Born Again, regenerate Christian, then one will see it through, because God will provide what a genuine Christian needs to see it through.

The Bible tells us that The Last Days will see a Great Deception, a Great Falling Away, one so great that the evil one will almost have enough pull to subvert the very elect, if possible. That's scary stuff. My uneducated guess/assumption is that the love of most will grow cold because of social and economic conditions, basically satan's destructive work in the world at large as it plays out in the lives of individuals. Those who see it through to the end will be saved, and I think that's because they were genuine converts to begin with, personally.

Another good post. What's your take on it? I imagine some more seasoned Christians will chime in (sooner, rather than later, no less...).
 
Matthew 24…12"Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.13"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.14"This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Revelation 14. 9-10
9Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.



There have been lots of comments from churches and those who are acquainted with the bible. They believe that once you are saved you cannot lose your salvation. I believed that too but the above scriptures tend to baffle me a bit.
  • IF those who ENDURE will be saved, would not the reverse be true, IF you do not ENDURE you will not be saved. I have often wondered about this text as this is the one that those who believe that you can lose your salvation.
  • IF anyone is saved have accepted Christ and because of the conditions during this time they received the mark and worship the beast.. we can see the result..
Revelation 14.4 Those who follow the Lamb are not defiled. So those who follow the beast are defiled.

What is described in Revelation has not taken place, so none of us knows how we will deal with this when
the time comes.

Your comments please..

In order to "understand" scriptures one must be led to understand their own construct. HOW does scripture see US?

Here is "how" Paul described himself. Some, when reading, might notice Paul is not just Paul. There is Paul. And there is a spiritual OPPONENT in Paul's own flesh. This sight should lead anyone who reads the fact to see TWO PARTIES. And, once seen for themselves, it will probably startle them for a time. And IF they don't and can't see the Eyes of God upon themselves, it is God hardening the other party, allowing the believer to be BLINDED spiritually, by their built in opponent, in the flesh:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Now, perp walk this opponent back to the scriptural equations above, and you might see who is a marked man, and who is not.

Scripture sees YOU as TWO. Not one. Don't be fooled by "the other." Don't be a pawn of "the other." Open both of your eyes, and look upon "every thought." You'll find your opponent, ready to engage you, therein.
 
I'm no theologian (clearly). My take is that there are genuine Christians and false conversions. I live in the South, "The Bible Belt" ("1,000 miles wide, 1 inch deep"). There's plenty of active church people who are just as bad--sometimes worse--than people in and of the world who don't even bother giving Christ a second thought. I think Truth has an appeal, even if some people can't/won't/don't fully accept it and live it out...to be fair, living out Christianity is an ongoing process, and its often difficult.

Ramble ramble...I guess I'm saying that I'm leaning towards "perseverance of the saints." --If-- one is a genuinely Born Again, regenerate Christian, then one will see it through, because God will provide what a genuine Christian needs to see it through.

The Bible tells us that The Last Days will see a Great Deception, a Great Falling Away, one so great that the evil one will almost have enough pull to subvert the very elect, if possible. That's scary stuff. My uneducated guess/assumption is that the love of most will grow cold because of social and economic conditions, basically satan's destructive work in the world at large as it plays out in the lives of individuals. Those who see it through to the end will be saved, and I think that's because they were genuine converts to begin with, personally.

Another good post. What's your take on it? I imagine some more seasoned Christians will chime in (sooner, rather than later, no less...).

In Revelation, we are looking upon the reality of Christ in us, to be "revealed" in us. Where we see Christ, literally, Spiritually in our midst, in our own temple body, there will come A DIVISION, separating us from indwelling sin and evil present with us. This is our hope, for any of us standing here, today.

There will be no more teaching, because THIS is what is going to happen:

Hebrews 8:11
And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

This is also what the prophets of the O.T. saw coming:

Isaiah 11:9
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

Habakkuk 2:14
For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

And how will this transpire? By the destruction of our "covering."

Isaiah 25:
6 And in this mountain shall the Lord of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations


8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord
God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it.

The lesson here is this. The DESTRUCTION that is spoken of in Revelation is God in Christ destroying DEATH itself, and REVEALING Himself, to all, in all.

It is the spiritual opposition that is in all flesh, currently, that is going to be destroyed by His Overwhelming Eternal Life. And ALL shall know Him, permanently.

Romans 11:27
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


And this is our covenant as well.

1 John 3:5
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.


The "reality" of this "taking away" of sin, will be manifested.


There will be no more evil. There will be no more death. There will be no more sin. There will be no more "devil and his messengers."

It will ALL be gone and replaced with HIS LIFE.

Here, again, is what Isaiah saw coming:

Isaiah 54:
8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the Lord thy Redeemer.
9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee.

We can't even IMAGINE The Power of His Mercy upon us.





 
People read the book of Revelation, and they MISS the very best part:

Rev. 5:
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

What we see, from the above moment on is the MOP UP operation, the CLEANSING of the earth.
 
My uneducated guess/assumption is that the love of most will grow cold because of social and economic conditions
Don't rule out good social and economic conditions. I'm old enough to see that it is America's prosperity that has been the damning force for her. We don't need God. When times are tough people tend to be more humble.

Those who see it through to the end will be saved, and I think that's because they were genuine converts to begin with, personally.
What I see in scripture is the concept of strong faith vs. weak faith, not so much faith vs. no faith.
Strong faith endures to the end. Weak faith withers away and dies under trial.
 
Matthew 24…12"Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.13"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.14"This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Revelation 14. 9-10
9Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.



There have been lots of comments from churches and those who are acquainted with the bible. They believe that once you are saved you cannot lose your salvation. I believed that too but the above scriptures tend to baffle me a bit.
  • IF those who ENDURE will be saved, would not the reverse be true, IF you do not ENDURE you will not be saved. I have often wondered about this text as this is the one that those who believe that you can lose your salvation.
  • IF anyone is saved have accepted Christ and because of the conditions during this time they received the mark and worship the beast.. we can see the result..
Revelation 14.4 Those who follow the Lamb are not defiled. So those who follow the beast are defiled.

What is described in Revelation has not taken place, so none of us knows how we will deal with this when
the time comes.

Your comments please..
From the above post, I get that you don't believe that once saved always saved, I truly have experienced a life time in and out of a spirit filled life. And I know for myself that I'am better off with a life with the spirit of God as my guide everyday of my life for a witness. Because as I acknowledge Jesus Christ in all my ways, he directs my paths, even when my mind is idle to think of things which are according to the scriptures. And you are correct, He or she that endures to the end the same shall be saved:Matthew 24…12"Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.13"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.14"This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

http://biblehub.com/proverbs/3-6.htm
http://biblehub.com/colossians/2-18.htm
 
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What I see in scripture is the concept of strong faith vs. weak faith, not so much faith vs. no faith.
Strong faith endures to the end. Weak faith withers away and dies under trial.

So does that mean they back go back to the state of no faith?
Could there not be a faith that still endures to the end, even if it causes many stumbles along the way and robs someone of the joy of their salvation?
 
So does that mean they back go back to the state of no faith?
Yes.

Could there not be a faith that still endures to the end, even if it causes many stumbles along the way and robs someone of the joy of their salvation?
Yes, of course.
We're all shining examples of that at one time or another in our Christian lives. But what remains is a fundamental belief in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins. If you lost that, that is when you lose your salvation. But struggling within the faith does not forfeit your salvation.
 
Matthew 2412"Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.13"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.14"This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
This Scripture is not about the Church. It is about the followers of Christ after the (taking away of the Church) (or rapturous Latin.).
(Matt. 24:7) is expanded in (Rev. 6:1-17). Matt. 24:12-14) is not about the Church. It is about those believers that go through the tribulation and endure the suffering of lawlessness for Christs sake, will be delivered (saved) from their tormentors by Christs return, AND then will the Gospel of the Kingdom be preached again. The reason most people do not understand Matthews chapters 24 and 25 i they do not believe in the rapture and the difference between the Church, the Gentile and the Jew.
 
This Scripture is not about the Church. It is about the followers of Christ after the (taking away of the Church) (or rapturous Latin.).
(Matt. 24:7) is expanded in (Rev. 6:1-17). Matt. 24:12-14) is not about the Church. It is about those believers that go through the tribulation and endure the suffering of lawlessness for Christs sake, will be delivered (saved) from their tormentors by Christs return, AND then will the Gospel of the Kingdom be preached again. The reason most people do not understand Matthews chapters 24 and 25 i they do not believe in the rapture and the difference between the Church, the Gentile and the Jew.

That's interesting. I'm going to have to look at this more in depth. Thanks. :-)
 
Matthew 24…12"Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.13"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.14"This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Revelation 14. 9-10
9Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.



There have been lots of comments from churches and those who are acquainted with the bible. They believe that once you are saved you cannot lose your salvation. I believed that too but the above scriptures tend to baffle me a bit.
  • IF those who ENDURE will be saved, would not the reverse be true, IF you do not ENDURE you will not be saved. I have often wondered about this text as this is the one that those who believe that you can lose your salvation.
  • IF anyone is saved have accepted Christ and because of the conditions during this time they received the mark and worship the beast.. we can see the result..
Revelation 14.4 Those who follow the Lamb are not defiled. So those who follow the beast are defiled.

What is described in Revelation has not taken place, so none of us knows how we will deal with this when
the time comes.

Your comments please..

hello abide, dirtfarmer here

When you read "Endure to the end", that is a reference to the millennium, the 1000 years that the Jews will be a kingdom of priest. Scripture states that we, who in part of the body of Christ, the church, are children of God and heirs and joint-heirs with Christ. Our citizenship is now in heaven while at the present we are sojourners while on earth, looking for Christ and our marriage to him as him bride.
The marriage and the marriage feast happens during the 7 year tribulation. During that time there will 144,000 Jews sealed and after the tribulation, they become the kingdom of priest that preach Christ to every nation.
 
Matthew 2412"Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.13"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.14"This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Revelation 14. 9-10
I would begin by pointing out the necessary element here: as the world and society conform more and more to the "politically correct," and "everyone is right," type of mentality, our contrast between truth and lie; right and wrong; good and evil...becomes muddled. There then becomes no "black and white,'' but only a constant "shade of grey," in which each person can find a comfortable place to rationalize and validate those things which are not of truth, of God, and of good. In essence, this first verse speaks of the "desensitizing," of the Body and world to the idea that sin is indeed sin; wrong is indeed wrong; and evil is indeed evil. This is what John's revelation here was referring to folks.
We are now in this age; where truth and lie become mixed in doctrine and preaching even from the pulpits; as some would preach,'acceptable sin,' implying that some are not so bad...or are not sin. Because of this hardening of heart to truth; and failure to maintain accountability; "lawlessness," is running rampant; in the church as in the world. Folks, we are again regressing for the most part into the Pharisaic society of Jesus' day; with hard hearts, absence of sincere love and a focus on politics, processes, and patterns of man-made tradition over authenticity and godly intention of heart.

Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

let us keep in mind the figurative and illustrative purposes of almost all the scriptures. Far too long have we simply taken at face value these refer to literal marking; which may perhaps also be true, but let us not limit God here. WE do well to note the symbolism; especially given the great amount of illustrative and figurative context in Revelations relative to the church body, the believers and the process. We are told that wolves will come in wearing "sheep's clothing," (false prophets, preachers, teachers, etc.) but that we will know them by their fruit. From where does the fruit come? From the inside; the heart, the mind...we choose freely our course, our intentions dictate our actions; thus we do well to realize that there is a process from internal choice f fruit and external delivery of it. So, could it be that this symbolizes how we are to recognize the enemy and who is of the enemy by the actions(fruit, illustrated by the hand,) which come from the heart/mind(intention, illustrated by the forehead.)? Christ is the head of the church, the body of believers in Him right? So our "hand,"(fruit,) will always reflect the marking of His nature; His being literally our "forehead." Just so, the "hand," (fruit,) of the enemy will always be accompanied by the "marking," of its own "head," which is Satan; and bears his own mark. Just things to ponder anyway.

There have been lots of comments from churches and those who are acquainted with the bible. They believe that once you are saved you cannot lose your salvation. I believed that too but the above scriptures tend to baffle me a bit.
  • IF those who ENDURE will be saved, would not the reverse be true, IF you do not ENDURE you will not be saved. I have often wondered about this text as this is the one that those who believe that you can lose your salvation.
  • IF anyone is saved have accepted Christ and because of the conditions during this time they received the mark and worship the beast.. we can see the result..

We absolutely MUST take the entire book of revelation into account, according to context to have any shot at all of grasping what is said here. If you read Revelations ENTIRELY, even the passages in the Gospels where Jesus spoke of end times; you will see clearly to avoid stumbling here. This specifically speaks of the End-Times believers who were either specifically chosen for their value towards fulfilling God's plan; or those who are being given a final season to "get right," and attain salvation they have obliviously missed. (IE: Works-based focused believers, insincere believers, etc.) On the one hand you have the sincere; chosen specifically because God can use what He gifted them with and prepared them for in order for all things to come together. They will be fiercely persecuted, tortured, tried, tested, abused, starved and otherwise pressed to give in to the enemy and get some measure of "quarter," from him. However, should they not endure; they will have at the last second completely turned away with full knowledge of God and complete disregard of the salvation bought them; thus blaspheming the Holy Spirit. The others are given this season at the last as discipline and temporal punishment to redirect them back to sincerity and truth of faith rather than the illusion of works and deceptions that are leading them otherwise towards death.
Finally, there is a current day to day application also here: due to free will we can be so fully given to refusing or "throwing away ," our salvation that we also come perilously close to blasphemy of the Spirit. While one cannot traditionally "lose salvation," per se; one can potentially disqualify themselves with this one rare exception Christ made a point to bring up. Keep in mind when Jesus referred to this sin it was in confronting the Pharisees for refusing to see and accept Him for Who He was....just food for thought.
 
If Matthew 24 was written only for a Zionist millernarian kingdom, how does one explain Mark 13 or Luke 21? Futurism is quite alive in dispensationalism...

Do humans populate in the millenary? Is there a need to evangelize; do the lost exist in the thousand years? How is one saved if they miss the alleged two stage rapture (based from JN Darby's adaptation of a feverish Scots teenager who envisioned a dual stage rapture event, similar to the teachings of the Irvingites a century earlier)?

This we do know: Jesus knew of but ONE day.
John 5.27-9, 6.39, 11.24-6, and he is the resurrection and the life.
 
Well played PB! But I won't bite n this one. There is simply too much room for open-interpretation and conjecture in these matters. one day we will see these things clearly, but as for me...as for now; i am simply thankful for the grace given me, and the confidence in what is to come.
 
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