How to Discern Truth and the Spirit of God

[R7-12]

With this post I will identify the Biblical way in which God’s servants discern the truth and the spirit of God operating in His servants.

First we will go through a series of texts that develop specific axioms leading to logical conclusions that are all related to one another, and when viewed together reveal the unmistakable truth of the Word of God.

Axiom: A true Christian must have the spirit of God indwelling them which is the same spirit in Christ. If you do not have this spirit, you are not His.

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His (Romans 8:9).

Axiom: The spirit of God is ONLY given to those who obey God,

And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him (Acts 5:32).

Axiom: If we strive to be obedient, God and Christ will both abide in us by the spirit. We know that God abides in us by the spirit He has given us because we keep His commandments, as it is written,

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us (1 John 3:24).

Axiom: Obedience to God is NOT a burden; rather, our keeping the commandments is the love of God.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome (1 John 5:3).

Premise: The law of God is the way in which He teaches His people how to live. This shows God’s love for us because He wants us to live the best possible way we can – He is our Father – we are His children. The spiritual principles of the law IS the light of God which IS life (John 1:4) and is embodied by Jesus Christ who is the way, the truth, and the life.

For the commandment is a lamp, And the law a light; Reproofs of instruction are the way of life (Proverbs 6:23).

All Your commandments are truth (Psalm 119:151b).

The law of the wise is a fountain of life (Proverbs 13:14).

And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it (John 1:5).

Conclusion: The commandments of God are the vehicle through which the law or light of God shines upon those who have the Spirit of God and Messiah and obey God’s voice (Christ). The spiritual principles within the law shine from God onto our hearts as the law is put into our minds and written upon our hearts (Jeremiah 31:31) through continual obedience – it becomes who we are. The reproofs of instruction from the royal law of liberty are the way of life for they reflect God’s truth and teach God’s righteousness and enable us to resist the devil through God’s Spirit.

Axiom: The carnal mind of man hates the light because it cannot understand the principles contained in it. Why is it this way? Because mankind’s deeds are evil and thus the light (law) which exposes them (reveals sin) is hated. Thus, the carnal mind is enmity against God because the mind is not automatically or naturally subject to the law of God.

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God (Romans 8:7-8).

“And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 “For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 “But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.†(John 39-21).

Conclusion: Those who truly serve God subject their minds to the spiritual principles contained in the law voluntarily because the truth in them is life. It is only in this way that our minds become subject to the divine will of God - we choose it willingly. This enables us through the spirit of God to become the living sacrifices we are called to be for we have our faith perfected by God through Christ with a willing heart.

Axiom: Christ obeyed every commandment and the entire law of God and was thus sinless – his light was perfect righteousness. Therefore we must bring every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, which he modeled for us, as per 2 Corinthians 10:4.

“As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.†(John 9:5).

“if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17).

Premise: The Bible is not made up of two sections of which the first is temporary or invalid or no longer applicable. The entire Bible is the word of God and is truth from Genesis to Revelation. To remove any aspect of it is to reject the whole.

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work (2 Timothy 3:16 -17).

Then it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to observe all these commandments before the LORD our God, as He has commanded us. (Deuteronomy 6:25).

For all Your commandments are righteousness (Psalm 119:172b).

Oh, that you had heeded My commandments! Then your peace would have been like a river, And your righteousness like the waves of the sea (Isaiah 48:18).

Axiom: If we are truly Christians, Christ will rise in our hearts as the Morning Star of God.

And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts (2 Peter 1:19).

Conclusion:That is the light and life of God and it must be in us. The Morning Star shines with the light of the truth of God – His Law/Word and proclaims it above all mountains and over all the nations.

And finally the Biblical instruction concerning how to rightly divide the truth and test the spirits,

To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them (Isaiah 8:20).

Axiom: The light that must be in us is the life of God that is in Christ which we receive through the power of the Holy Spirit of God.

And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ (Revelation 12:17).

Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12).

Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11“And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death (Revelation 12:10-11).

Premise: We obey the law and commandments not to earn salvation but rather to walk as Christ our Master walked for it is pleasing to our heavenly Father that we do so and sin not. And if we make a mistake? We have the Lamb of God and High Priest who gave himself once for all, therefore we can be forgiven and ultimately justified by faith in Almighty God.

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent (John 17:3).

He who says, “I know Him,†and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him (1 John 2:4).

We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error (1 John 4:6).

Conclusion: Those who obey God are those who have recieved the Spirit (Acts 5:32). These are they who hear the truth because the spirit of truth indwells them.

Axiom: Where the law is not kept there is no truth and no light and hence no life-giving sacrifice.

"The commandment is a lamp, And the law a light reproofs of instruction are the way of life"

“If you want to enter into life, keep the commandmentsâ€Â

"The Spirit is truth.""

“All Your commandments are truth†(Psalm 119:151b).

Conclusion: So when someone speaks and you wonder if what he says is true according to Scripture, or you want to be able to discern the spirits that operate among us, here is the Biblical gauge or measuring stick,

“To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.â€Â

Premise: From the observance of the spiritual intent of the law with a pure heart, flow the fruits of the spirit, which will reveal the spirit of God.

Conclusion: The commandments are truth, they are light, and they are life according to the Word of God who became flesh to die for us and now is the firstborn son of the Living God.

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his (Romans 8:5-8, KJV).

I have spoken the truth.

R7-12

 

[unred typo]

No takers, R7-12? Perhaps nobody is up for the challenge of a tedious exchange with a virtual vertical barricade of impenetrable mass? :

Actually, I agree with almost all of what your op states. We just have this disagreement over what law is the law we are supposed to follow. This verse clears that up nicely, but I doubt that you will agree.

Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

 

[unred typo]

I thought you might be curious as to what else I didn’t agree with and why but since you didn’t respond and it doesn’t look like anyone else is going to either, I’ll just take up the couple of things I disagree with, if you don‘t mind. I found a couple contradictory points upon re reading your op. The first I have already stated.

R7-12 wrote:Axiom: The light that must be in us is the life of God that is in Christ which we receive through the power of the Holy Spirit of God.

And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ (Revelation 12:17).
Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12).
Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11“And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death (Revelation 12:10-11).

Premise: We obey the law and commandments not to earn salvation but rather to walk as Christ our Master walked for it is pleasing to our heavenly Father that we do so and sin not. And if we make a mistake? We have the Lamb of God and High Priest who gave himself once for all, therefore we can be forgiven and ultimately justified by faith in Almighty God.

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent (John 17:3).
He who says, “I know Him,†and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him (1 John 2:4).
We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error (1 John 4:6).

Conclusion: Those who obey God are those who have recieved the Spirit (Acts 5:32). These are they who hear the truth because the spirit of truth indwells them.

I have my own version based on my understanding of your quoted verses, with additional proof texts:
Axiom: The light that must be in us is the life of God that is in Christ which we receive through the power of the Holy Spirit of God, which is freely given to all men, but only those who obey Christ’s commands actually receive it and are saved.

John 1:9
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
John 12:36
While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
John 8:12
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
Matthew 4:16
The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
Matthew 6:22
The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

Premise: We obey the law and commandments to gain salvation (though these things could never be enough to earn it) and walk as Christ our Master walked for it is pleasing to our heavenly Father that we do so and sin not and gain eternal life as he promised to those who obey him. And if we make a mistake? We have the Lamb of God and High Priest who gave himself once for all, therefore we can be forgiven and ultimately justified by faith in Almighty God.

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent (John 17:3).
He who says, “I know Him,†and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him (1 John 2:4).
We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error (1 John 4:6).

Your conclusion is misleading or confusing at best. What translation is that? All the usual ones I checked said about the exact same thing. None said what you quoted. The way yours reads it sounds like the ones who hear the truth hear it because the Spirit indwells them. Or is the first statement you made the verse? Do you say that those who obey God do so because they have received the Spirit or the ones who have the Spirit received the Spirit because they obey him?
These are the ones I checked: (in the mouth of two or more witnesses….)

(NKJV) Acts 5:32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.â€Â

(KJV) 32And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

(NASB) 32"And we are (A)witnesses [a]of these things; and (B)so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him."

(DARBY) 32And *we* are [his] witnesses of these things, and the Holy Spirit also, which God
has given to those that obey him.

(NIV) 32We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."

Conclusion: Those who obey the law written on their hearts, receive the light that the Spirit gives to all men because their deeds are right with God. The Spirit indwells those who live in love and obedience. These are they who hear the truth because the spirit of truth indwells them.

 

[Quasar]

Thread subject

Quote by unred typo:

>>>I have my own version based on my understanding of your quoted verses, with additional proof texts:
Axiom: The light that must be in us is the life of God that is in Christ which we receive through the power of the Holy Spirit of God, which is freely given to all men, but only those who obey Christ’s commands actually receive it and are saved.<<<


I'm curious; you made the accurate statement the Holy Spirit is given freely to all men, but then you infer He put strings on it, demanding obedience in order to be saved. Tell me, how can our salvation be a free gift if there are strings attached? As it then would no longer be a free gift, would it?


You continue:

>>>Conclusion: Those who obey the law written on their hearts, receive the light that the Spirit gives to all men because their deeds are right with God. The Spirit indwells those who live in love and obedience. These are they who hear the truth because the spirit of truth indwells them.<<<


Are you suggesting that when a person hears the Gospel and believes/receives Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, that He hasn't given/baptised them with the Holy Spirit instantly [Mt.3:11; Mk.1:8; Lk.3:16 and Jn.1:33], as found in Eph.1:13-14? That the believer didn't confess with His mouth and believe with his heart, and was saved, as we read in Rom.10:9-10?

That the inheritance of our free salvation, it isn't guaranteed until the day of redemption? Again, Eph.1:13-14. That there are some sins Jesus didn't shed His blood and die for that we have to somehow account for?

Blessings,

Quasar

 

[unred typo]

Quasar wrote:I'm curious; you made the accurate statement the Holy Spirit is given freely to all men, but then you infer He put strings on it, demanding obedience in order to be saved. Tell me, how can our salvation be a free gift if there are strings attached? As it then would no longer be a free gift, would it?

Good question. Easy answer, I hope.
A baby is a free gift from God, does that mean we don’t have to feed it and care for it? If someone gives you a job, does that mean you don’t have to work it? A doctor gives you a diet and a prescription, does that mean you don’t have to follow it or take the pills to be saved from your disease?

The blood sacrifice of his Son was the free gift which you cannot add your works or your money or anything you own to. It is complete and absolutely covers our sin, in fact, all the sin of the whole world. It is applied by the Spirit as we confess and forsake those sins and if we continually walk in the light, forgiving others as we have been, and loving one another, the Spirit remains in us, constantly cleansing our sins. The free gift is the body of Christ. We do not earn our salvation by works but we aren’t saved without them. All the works in the world aren’t enough to justify us. So forget boasting, even if you are martyred for Christ. Only his blood is sufficient to pay the price. Do you understand what I’m saying, or am I not communicating it clearly enough?

 

[R7-12]

unred typo,

You wrote,

I have my own version based on my understanding of your quoted verses, with additional proof texts:
Axiom: The light that must be in us is the life of God that is in Christ which we receive through the power of the Holy Spirit of God, which is freely given to all men, but only those who obey Christ’s commands actually receive it and are saved.

Yes that is clearly your version. Christ’s commands are the commands of his God and Father according to the Bible. There is no distinction. Christ did not replace His Father’s commands; rather, he kept them and taught them to us.

Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner†(John 5:19).

“I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me†(John 5:30)

“He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me†(John 14:24).

Christ said,
“You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Do not defraud,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother’ †(Mark 10:19).

“But that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father gave Me commandment, so I do. Arise, let us go from here†(John 14:31).

“But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments†(Matthew 19:17b).

It is written,
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome (1 John 5:3).

Premise: We obey the law and commandments to gain salvation (though these things could never be enough to earn it) and walk as Christ our Master walked for it is pleasing to our heavenly Father that we do so and sin not and gain eternal life as he promised to those who obey him. And if we make a mistake? We have the Lamb of God and High Priest who gave himself once for all, therefore we can be forgiven and ultimately justified by faith in Almighty God.
[quote:9a51a]And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent (John 17:3).
He who says, “I know Him,†and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him (1 John 2:4).
We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error (1 John 4:6).

[/quote:9a51a]
You did not accurately quote what I said as you added some words and omitted others.

These are my words with emphasis on what you omitted.

Premise: We obey the law and commandments not to earn salvation but rather to walk as Christ our Master walked for it is pleasing to our heavenly Father that we do so and sin not. And if we make a mistake? We have the Lamb of God and High Priest who gave himself once for all, therefore we can be forgiven and ultimately justified by faith in Almighty God.

You wrote,

Your conclusion is misleading or confusing at best. What translation is that? All the usual ones I checked said about the exact same thing. None said what you quoted. The way yours reads it sounds like the ones who hear the truth hear it because the Spirit indwells them. Or is the first statement you made the verse? Do you say that those who obey God do so because they have received the Spirit or the ones who have the Spirit received the Spirit because they obey him?

(NKJV) Acts 5:32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.â€Â

(KJV) 32And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

(NASB) 32"And we are (A)witnesses [a]of these things; and (B)so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him."

(DARBY) 32And *we* are [his] witnesses of these things, and the Holy Spirit also, which God
has given to those that obey him.

(NIV) 32We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."

You didn’t quote what I had written to show what your comments are referring to so here is what I said,

Conclusion: Those who obey God are those who have recieved the Spirit (Acts 5:32). These are they who hear the truth because the spirit of truth indwells them.

It wasn’t a quote but a paraphrase with the text given as reference. It says precisely what I said it did and also what all of the translations you provided say – The Holy Spirit is given by God to those who obey Him.

You wrote,

Conclusion: Those who obey the law written on their hearts, receive the light that the Spirit gives to all men because their deeds are right with God. The Spirit indwells those who live in love and obedience. These are they who hear the truth because the spirit of truth indwells them.

The first sentence doesn’t make sense to me. You said,

Conclusion: Those who obey the law written on their hearts, receive the light …

By the structure and content of your sentence you imply that the law (which one are you referring to?) is already written on the hearts of men and those who obey receive the light.

It’s my assertion that the law of God does not even begin to be written upon our hearts unless and until we begin obeying it,

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God (Romans 8:7-8).

The point of my post is really simple. The law and commandments of God are truth, righteousness, life, the light of God, and the way of life – as it is written. His Law/Word is embodied by Christ who is the light and life of men as these were given to him by the Father because he obeyed his Father and thus overcame sin. Christ is our perfect example of how we are to live. Those who obey God’s commandments are those who are able to discern truth from error and identify the spirits correctly as per Isaiah 8:20.

R7-12

 

[R7-12]

Unred typo,

You wrote,

The blood sacrifice of his Son was the free gift which you cannot add your works or your money or anything you own to. It is complete and absolutely covers our sin, in fact, all the sin of the whole world. It is applied by the Spirit as we confess and forsake those sins and if we continually walk in the light, forgiving others as we have been, and loving one another, the Spirit remains in us, constantly cleansing our sins. The free gift is the body of Christ. We do not earn our salvation by works but we aren’t saved without them. All the works in the world aren’t enough to justify us. So forget boasting, even if you are martyred for Christ. Only his blood is sufficient to pay the price. Do you understand what I’m saying, or am I not communicating it clearly enough?

I agree with much of what you wrote, however there were several comments with which I differ and perhaps that is only because of the difficulties we often encounter when trying to communicate concepts to one another.

the Spirit remains in us, constantly cleansing our sins.

We are cleansed by God through faith upon repentance which is continual for we being flesh still err.

One comment that I found quite surprising to hear from you was,

We do not earn our salvation by works but we aren’t saved without them

I agree. Keeping God’s commandments do not and cannot earn salvation for anyone, but we cannot be saved if we brake them for that is sin for which the wages are death (Romans 6:23).

You also said,

All the works in the world aren’t enough to justify us. So forget boasting, even if you are martyred for Christ.

Again I agree but only with the first statement and half of the second. Let me explain. Boasting must always be excluded because there is nothing for which we can boast for only one is good – God. However, selfless acts such as martyrdom for the truth are not so much “works†as some may perceive them, but really a demonstration of one’s unconditional faith in God’s promises. And it is by faith that we are saved. So I would disagree with that part of your statement and assert that we are justified by faith of which martyrdom would be the ultimate evidence thereof.

The death of Christ itself is not so much the free gift that we receive as his death is the selfless price Messiah was willing to pay in order to redeem us from the penalty for breaking the Law. So his death was in response to what the law required so that we might be granted life by God by His grace which is the gift made possible by the indwelling of His spirit.

In other words, the free gift of God is the gift of righteousness which is a gift of grace – it is the Holy Spirit - our down payment for life everlasting, which will be the end result of the gift.

Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).

Therefore I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands. 7 For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind (2 Timothy 1:6, cf. Acts 11:17, Hebrews 6:4).

The gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also (Acts 10:45b).

So what we are saying appears to be similar. The death of Christ makes the gift of God possible, and this is given to those who obey God. Thus God and Christ abide in us, that is, in those who keep the commandments of God, as it is written in 1 John 3:24.

R7-12

 

[unred typo]

Quasar wrote:You continue:

Wow, and I see you continued, too. Did I miss this or did you edit it in after I posted? I sure didn’t see it. Sorry.

Quasar wrote:Are you suggesting that when a person hears the Gospel and believes/receives Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, that He hasn't given/baptised them with the Holy Spirit instantly [Mt.3:11; Mk.1:8; Lk.3:16 and Jn.1:33], as found in Ephesians1:13-14?

Are you suggesting that when a person hears the Gospel and believes/receives Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, that He IS given/ baptized then with the Holy Spirit instantly [Mt.3:11; Mk.1:8; Lk.3:16 and Jn.1:33], as found in Ephesians1:13-14? I have watched these televised crusades, been to a few, and seen hundreds of people go forward to receive Christ at various times in my life. I have never seen what is recorded in Acts 2: 1-12, never saw a tongue of fire, no, not one, and never heard the wonderful works of God spoken in other real, actual languages. Have you? So either none of these people were instantly given/baptized in the Holy Spirit, or we have the wrong idea of what being given/baptized in the Holy Spirit is all about, I’d say. Maybe we are seeing the fulfillment of prophesy here in Acts 2 and we think it’s going to continue with us but invisible to the naked eye. Maybe we shouldn’t be linking ‘given/baptized’ like they are synonymous concepts. Check out this passage in the OT about King Saul, not a Christian, btw:

1Sa 10:10 And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them.
And it came to pass, when all that knew him beforetime saw that, behold, he prophesied among the prophets, then the people said one to another, What [is] this [that] is come unto the son of Kish? [Is] Saul also among the prophets?

Quasar wrote:That the believer didn't confess with His mouth and believe with his heart, and was saved, as we read in Rom.10:9-10?

The believer who believes with his heart unto righteousness, believes what Jesus preached for us to do in order to be saved, and he does it, and confesses Jesus’ words as truth, even if it means a martyr’s death, yes, he is saved. Did I miss something?



Quasar wrote:That the inheritance of our free salvation, it isn't guaranteed until the day of redemption? Again, Eph.1:13-14.

God has guaranteed to keep his part of the agreement. As long as we walk in the light, love one another, confess and forsake our sins daily, he is faithful to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness with the precious gift of his only begotten son‘s life blood which he freely gave for us. How shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation?


Quasar wrote:That there are some sins Jesus didn't shed His blood and die for that we have to somehow account for?
Blessings, Quasar

Since you put it like that, Jesus said if you do not from the heart forgive every man his brother, neither would his heavenly father forgive us. So I guess that one isn’t covered. Sin against the Holy Spirit also isn’t covered. Beyond that, I don‘t know of any sin that can‘t be forgiven. Let me repeat that no works that we could do would be enough to pay for our sin. The wages of sin is death and all have sinned and we have nothing to give to undo our sin. When we obey Christ, we are not paying for our sin. We are doing what he said to do in order to inherit eternal life through his blood. We inherit eternal life by following the commands of Christ. Those commands can be found in the gospel of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and the letters of the apostles. When we obey him, the Spirit indwells us and places us in Christ. If the Spirit is in us, he will raise us up to life eternal. This is not hard to see, is it?

 

[unred typo]

R7-12 wrote: Yes that is clearly your version. Christ’s commands are the commands of his God and Father according to the Bible. There is no distinction. Christ did not replace His Father’s commands; rather, he kept them and taught them to us.

I thought it was clearly my version. You still got confused. :
OK. Show me where Jesus taught to make a difference between the clean and unclean animals to be eaten. Show me where he taught that you shall not mar the corners of your beard. Show me where he taught that you shall not wear a garment made of wool and linen. When you say keep the law of God, are you advocating also keeping the sacrificial system? Do you want to re institute stoning of those who pick up sticks or mow lawns on the Sabbath? There is a difference between what the OT law said and what Jesus instituted for commands. Your ‘proof’ verses are inconclusive and/or irrelevant to the point.

R7-12 wrote: You did not accurately quote what I said as you added some words and omitted others.
These are my words with emphasis on what you omitted. (quote)Conclusion: Those who obey God are those who have recieved the Spirit (Acts 5:32). These are they who hear the truth because the spirit of truth indwells them.(/quote)

The statement you’re complaining about isn’t your quote. Your quote is in italics at the top. That’s my revised version of your quote. Sorry to confuse you. I really do need some color crayons for my posts. :-D

R7-12 wrote: It wasn’t a quote but a paraphrase with the text given as reference. It says precisely what I said it did and also what all of the translations you provided say – The Holy Spirit is given by God to those who obey Him.

You see how true it is that when you judge another, you will be judged when you do the same things. You called me on the carpet for mixing my comment with a verse, even though I made a clear distinction between my words and scripture, yet you seem to pass off your version as the actual verse. :roll:
As for your version saying exactly the same, well, no, it doesn’t.
Yours: “Those who obey God are those who have recieved the Spirit. These are they who hear the truth because the spirit of truth indwells them.â€Â
God’s: “We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.â€Â
There is a subtle change that makes a vast difference. You have changed the order from those that obey are given the Spirit
to those that have been given the Spirit, obey.
This change is also contradictory to your second and third axioms, (You wrote: “Axiom: The spirit of God is ONLY given to those who obey God,
And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him (Acts 5:32).
Axiom: If we strive to be obedient, God and Christ will both abide in us by the spirit. We know that God abides in us by the spirit He has given us because we keep His commandments, as it is written,(etc.)â€Â)
I can agree with the way these are worded.


R7-12 wrote: By the structure and content of your sentence you imply that the law (which one are you referring to?) is already written on the hearts of men and those who obey receive the light.
It’s my assertion that the law of God does not even begin to be written upon our hearts unless and until we begin obeying it,

Your assertion is wrong then. God said he would write his laws on the Israelite hearts in Jeremiah 31:33 and it was fulfilled in the NT times. Paul writes that the law was also written on the Gentiles’ hearts, both the just and the unjust.

Hebrews 10:16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.)

 

[unred typo]

R7-12 wrote: I agree with much of what you wrote, however there were several comments with which I differ and perhaps that is only because of the difficulties we often encounter when trying to communicate concepts to one another.

Yup. These words are fraught with excess conflicting doctrinal baggage so it is hard to make a simple statement without getting some mud slung from another point of view on it. Like a walk through a cow pasture pond, it gets deep and it ain’t all just mud either. :


R7-12 wrote: One comment that I found quite surprising to hear from you was, (quote)“We do not earn our salvation by works but we aren’t saved without themâ€Â(/quote)
I agree. Keeping God’s commandments do not and cannot earn salvation for anyone, but we cannot be saved if we brake them for that is sin for which the wages are death (Romans 6:23).

Oh, I believe salvation is by grace. If God wasn’t merciful, he would have crumpled up the universe and tossed it into a black hole centuries ago. We are less than germs in his sight, but amazing grace, he loves us like children when we obey him. Even more amazing is his patience in leading us to repentance and his hope that we will turn from sin and be saved. There seems to be a tendency of preaching the worthlessness of man’s works and the grace of God is not balanced by his holiness and impartial judgment of sin.


R7-12 wrote: Again I agree but only with the first statement and half of the second. Let me explain. Boasting must always be excluded because there is nothing for which we can boast for only one is good – God. However, selfless acts such as martyrdom for the truth are not so much “works†as some may perceive them, but really a demonstration of one’s unconditional faith in God’s promises. And it is by faith that we are saved. So I would disagree with that part of your statement and assert that we are justified by faith of which martyrdom would be the ultimate evidence thereof.

Hair splitting takes a certain amount of skill, but there’s a fair amount of nit picking in the rest of this that I have already covered elsewhere. I think you should consider that God not only requires us to be good, but to be perfect. Fortunately, we have only to forsake and confess our imperfections and they are covered to perfection. I would say martyrdom is a work of supreme faith. The only thing I can imagine harder than giving one’s own life, would be giving the life of your beloved son. Read Jam 2:21 “Was not Abraham our fatherjustified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?â€Â

Is that good enough?

 

[R7-12]

unred typo,

You asked,

Is that good enough?

In fact it is, just keep reading and you'll see why.

R7-12 wrote: By the structure and content of your sentence you imply that the law (which one are you referring to?) is already written on the hearts of men and those who obey receive the light.
It’s my assertion that the law of God does not even begin to be written upon our hearts unless and until we begin obeying it,

[quote:3ec20]Your assertion is wrong then. God said he would write his laws on the Israelite hearts in Jeremiah 31:33 and it was fulfilled in the NT times. Paul writes that the law was also written on the Gentiles’ hearts, both the just and the unjust.

Hebrews 10:16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.)[/quote:3ec20]

That’s very interesting unred typo. My point was that the law of God does begin to be placed in our minds and written upon our hearts unless and until we begin obeying God’s law. Your response?

Your assertion is wrong then. God said he would write his laws on the Israelite hearts in Jeremiah 31:33 and it was fulfilled in the NT times. Paul writes that the law was also written on the Gentiles’ hearts, both the just and the unjust.

Here you clearly assert that the law of God would be written on the hearts of Israelites according to the prophecy of Jeremiah and that it actually occurred in the NT times! Not only that but you assert that the law of God would also be written on the hearts of Gentiles, “both the just and the unjust,†according to Paul in Romans 2:14!

Well there can be not doubt what law you are referring to can there? You referred to God’s laws as it is written in Jeremiah. So what you have plainly admitted is that the law of God as understood from the OT will be written upon the hearts of Israelites, Gentiles, the just and the unjust!

I’m not sure how you’re gonna try to get out of that one but no doubt you will try! Why? Because you said in your previous post…

OK. Show me where Jesus taught to make a difference between the clean and unclean animals to be eaten.

Show me where he taught that you shall not mar the corners of your beard.

Show me where he taught that you shall not wear a garment made of wool and linen.

When you say keep the law of God, are you advocating also keeping the sacrificial system?

Do you want to re institute stoning of those who pick up sticks or mow lawns on the Sabbath?

There is a difference between what the OT law said and what Jesus instituted for commands.

Your ‘proof’ verses are inconclusive and/or irrelevant to the point.

Well unred typo, you have yourself stated the law of God will be written upon everybody’s heart as per Jeremiah 31:33 and Hebrews 10:16, so you have shown us that the law of God does not need to be repeated in the NT – it was already given once in Exodus by God through Moses, and a second time in Deuteronomy, just so people couldn’t ask why it wasn’t given twice! Why does anyone need it to be repeated a third time? God’s word stands. He does not speak in vain. He does not issue commands that are less than perfect or those which don’t need to be kept by his servants.

So whether you want to rant about how you believe my assertion concerning WHEN the law is put into our minds or written upon our hearts, makes no difference. You have here proven the point I’ve been making all along and that which you’ve been denying – it is the law of God that we are all to have operating in our minds and in our hearts and therefore live by it!

R7-12

 

[unred typo]

R7-12 wrote: Well unred typo, you have yourself stated the law of God will be written upon everybody’s heart as per Jeremiah 31:33 and Hebrews 10:16, so you have shown us that the law of God does not need to be repeated in the NT – it was already given once in Exodus by God through Moses, and a second time in Deuteronomy, just so people couldn’t ask why it wasn’t given twice! Why does anyone need it to be repeated a third time? God’s word stands. He does not speak in vain. He does not issue commands that are less than perfect or those which don’t need to be kept by his servants.

So whether you want to rant about how you believe my assertion concerning WHEN the law is put into our minds or written upon our hearts, makes no difference. You have here proven the point I’ve been making all along and that which you’ve been denying – it is the law of God that we are all to have operating in our minds and in our hearts and therefore live by it!


First, let me say, I’m not ranting. I guess it must look like that to you because I’m using bold type. Bold type is just to help distinguish my words from yours. Believe me, I’m perfectly calm and thoughtfully trying to write in a clear, concise way you can understand, and as simply as I know how. :fadein:

R7-12 wrote: God’s word stands. He does not speak in vain. He does not issue commands that are less than perfect or those which don’t need to be kept by his servants.

Very well. Let God have the last word in this. As I have tried before to tell you, I find no problem with keeping the law that Jesus preached. It is, in essence, the first two commands of the OT law, so yes, it was there in the OT books, I agree. Love survived the passing away of the Old Law written in stone. Notice at the very end, the keeping of the OT laws are equated with ‘dead works’ and we are instead told to ‘serve the living God.’ Open your eyes, toss out your pride and read the ‘rest of the story’ as Paul Harvey would drawl:

Hebrews 8 (emphasis mine)For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, [that] thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.
Then verily the first [covenant] had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
Hebrews 9:1 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein [was] the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. …etc….(please click and read the 6 verse description of tabernacle on your own)

9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
[Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].
For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

 

[R7-12]

unred typo,

The entire issue that you insist is about the commandments of God is really all about the temple ordinances involving the law of sacrifice.

Large portions of the NT deals with the very fact that Messiah replaced the blood of animals as the means by which our sins are covered, so whenever you read about "the law" or "works of the law" or being "under the law" it is speaking directly about the sacrificial ordinances.

Re-read what you posted above with the law of animal sacrifice in mind and perhaps you will begin to understand.

R7-12

 

[unred typo]

R7-12 wrote: Large portions of the NT deals with the very fact that Messiah replaced the blood of animals as the means by which our sins are covered, so whenever you read about "the law" or "works of the law" or being "under the law" it is speaking directly about the sacrificial ordinances.

We’re making progress, R7-12. There’s hope for you yet. :
Moving on to Ephesians:

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us]; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

What enmity is there in the sacrifices? I think he means the breaking of commandments here, as in sin that separates us from an angry God, don’t you? The sacrifices were a way to make peace with God, just as Christ‘s blood covers the enmity caused by our breaking of the commands, not breaking of the sacrificial system. And look at Colosians:

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.
Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,(Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
And have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.

Col 3:24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

And our favorite; Galatians:

Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before [them] all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
We [who are] Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.

Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain.
Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.
Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.
Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

So the OT law, the rites of circumcision, the old covenant with it’s observing of days, and months, and times, and years, and it’s ordinances in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days have been replaced, supplanted, done away with by the law of Christ. There are dozens more verses that could be used to illuminate this subject. We could go on for days, weeks even. Is that going to be necessary to drag out every instance of the old versus the new to get you to drop your unscriptural views? I find that you can support any notion with enough scripture to make a nice article or web page, a book even, but by reading the entire New Testament you can get to the genuine truth and it pays to read at least one or two books of it every day. We can do that here if you like, because a single verse or two taken out of context to support an error just doesn‘t cut it.