How wealthy can a christian be?

[katsa]

This has always been a sticky question for me, sometimes I feel I would be guilty if I have too much money because there are too many suffering people in the world, I have felt that christians generally should not be wealthy because that money should go to other courses. But still I dont understand it, God blessed Job tremendously with wealth, how about King David and Solomon? Does God still bless people with alot of wealth today and what does he intend us to do with it? Can one just live luxuriously ...

 

[antitox]

No problem having wealth. The problem is wealth controlling you. Most people do not know how to handle wealth. One guy was interviewed on TV who won 6 million and told everyone that in a couple of years, it was gone and he was back at square one.

Really, I don't see it necessarily as the money that corrupts people, but rather that the person is not ready from the start to handle the kind of personal freedom and abundance that wealth provides. It's the person's inherent condition prior to getting the big money.

 

[tim-from-pa]

This has always been a sticky question for me, sometimes I feel I would be guilty if I have too much money because there are too many suffering people in the world, I have felt that christians generally should not be wealthy because that money should go to other courses. But still I dont understand it, God blessed Job tremendously with wealth, how about King David and Solomon? Does God still bless people with alot of wealth today and what does he intend us to do with it? Can one just live luxuriously ...

You been duped by the Christian-should-not-be-wealthy myth. Just look at the OT and the promises to and the history of Israel. God never expected His people to be poor, and indeed greatness including wealth was promised to them.

 

[handy]

Does God still bless people with alot of wealth today and what does he intend us to do with it? Can one just live luxuriously ...

I think you ask a key question here katsa. It's not whether or not wealth itself is wrong, because it isn't. But, there does seem to be something out of whack if a Christian is wallowing in a marble bath complete with golden fixtures and able to watch the plasma tv while doing so, when somewhere in the same city, a family is going to bed without enough food.

Jesus said that the poor will always be with us, and there is no way an individual Christian can singlehandely eliminate poverty. But, we are to use whatever God blesses us with for His glory and to help those in need. I know of one man who is extremely wealthy. He lives on 10% of his income, (which still lends itself to a fairly easy lifestyle) and sees to it that the remaining 90% of his personal wealth goes to various charities. I believe that when he is called to give his accounts, a "Well done, good and faithful servant" will be pronounced. Even if a wealthy Christian doesn't give 90%, as long as he is using his wealth to further the works of God, then I believe God will be pleased.

Selfishness and greed are sinful, whatever one's personal finaces are.

 

[antitox]

I would say that if someone has a marble bathtub and alot of money, I'm not going to be down on them since I'm not in that position myself. I think that Christians have a warped view of riches and do not understand the Lazarus/rich man example shown in the bible. In that case, the rich man KNEW this guy was right outside his home and ignored him. That was outright refusal to aid someone that was practically at his doorstep. The basis for helping someone "in town" is more properly viewed that when we have crossed their paths, know they are there, and that we are in a position where we can help them is where we are accountable to do so. Not doing something to help them then, is blatant disregard for humans because it's right there in our face. God gave that type of example to show us that someone in a position to easily show mercy showed NONE AT ALL.

 

[Drew]

I think you ask a key question here katsa. It's not whether or not wealth itself is wrong, because it isn't. But, there does seem to be something out of whack if a Christian is wallowing in a marble bath complete with golden fixtures and able to watch the plasma tv while doing so, when somewhere in the same city, a family is going to bed without enough food.

I think I agree with your position and might even take a harder line. As long as there are people in the world who, through no fault of their own, lack for the basics of food, shelter, and medical care, we cannot, in good conscience, buy diamonds, plasma TVs, and SUVs. What we do with our money shows what we really believe.

 

[Guest]

This has always been a sticky question for me, sometimes I feel I would be guilty if I have too much money because there are too many suffering people in the world, I have felt that christians generally should not be wealthy because that money should go to other courses. But still I dont understand it, God blessed Job tremendously with wealth, how about King David and Solomon? Does God still bless people with alot of wealth today and what does he intend us to do with it? Can one just live luxuriously ...

You been duped by the Christian-should-not-be-wealthy myth. Just look at the OT and the promises to and the history of Israel. God never expected His people to be poor, and indeed greatness including wealth was promised to them.

But His is not a health and wealth Gospel.

 

[Vic C.]

I think you ask a key question here katsa. It's not whether or not wealth itself is wrong, because it isn't. But, there does seem to be something out of whack if a Christian is wallowing in a marble bath complete with golden fixtures and able to watch the plasma tv while doing so, when somewhere in the same city, a family is going to bed without enough food.

I think I agree with your position and might even take a harder line. As long as there are people in the world who, through no fault of their own, lack for the basics of food, shelter, and medical care, we cannot, in good conscience, buy diamonds, plasma TVs, and SUVs. What we do with our money shows what we really believe.

:-D ...to the both of you; I agree.

But His is not a health and wealth Gospel.

It is, only if one considers it "spiritual" health and wealth. ;-)

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

But, there does seem to be something out of whack if a Christian is wallowing in a marble bath complete with golden fixtures and able to watch the plasma tv while doing so, when somewhere in the same city, a family is going to bed without enough food...

Hmmm. A marble bath with golden fixture and a plasma TV is a no-no? What about a molded plastic bathtub with dripping faucets and a ten year old thirteen inch TV? Somewhere in the same city, the same family is going to bed without enough food....is something still out of whack?

I have been judged for driving 20 year old vehicles that were held together with duct tape, and I have been judged for buying a shiny 3 year old vehicle. I have a friend who I have known all of my life. When we were kids there were several things that we prayed together. He wanted to be a minister of the gospel, and he wanted to be a millionaire. He is both of those things today. Should not Christians praise God for answering his prayers rather than condemning this man because God answered his prayers? Do we need to see his financial statements more than we need to see the financial statements of the middle class Christian?

The questions I have is where is the line drawn about what Christians are allowed to have, and who draws the line?

My God is big enough to feed the hungry family and give His children something above poverty level. I used to give my lunch money to a professing 'homeless' kid when I was in high school. He is now one of the most wicked people I know.
I once took some blankets to a homeless shelter when people were lined up on the coldest night of the year. Lots of "thank yous" as I walked in with them. On the way out, there were lots of "If you really cared, you would give me a house." "Gee, can you spare it?" Etc.

I learned to pray before I give anything to anybody now.

Wealth, in abundance or the lack there of, is not really a good meter for judgment.

 

[Vic C.]

The questions I have is where is the line drawn about what Christians are allowed to have, and who draws the line?

That's a good question. God drews the line and we suffer the "consequences" when we cross the line. Every person's line is placed at a different location. Some are given more than others but then more is expected form them. That's Biblical. So is Ecclesiastes.

Wealth, in abundance or the lack there of, is not really a good meter for judgment.

That is true. I believe how one got wealthy, the motives for wanting to be wealthy and what was done with their wealth are measures for judgment. Same goes for a lack of wealth; how one got into that position should be considered. Was it "circumstances", lack of ambition or just plain ol' poor stewardship?

 

[handy]

This is a good discussion. I think most American Christian's struggle with this issue.

Gabby, I want to say that I don't think anyone other than God can tell someone else what they are allowed to have or what to do with the wealth God blesses them with. And we need to keep in mind that 'wealth' is a subjective term. As the first of the month is here, and I'm looking over our accounts and bills, I wouldn't call myself wealthy. But, there would be plenty both in the world and in my own community which would probably think of me as well off. Even though our family finances make marble bathtubs a moot point, we still have a responsibility to see to the needs of others.

I choose the phrase, "something out of whack" referring to the marble bathtub carefully. I don't think there is anything intrinsically wrong with luxury items. But, the issue katsa raised, what does God expect us to do with what He gives us, and is it OK to Him if we "just live luxuriously" is important for all Christians to consider. I think the key point that got to me in katsa's post was exactly that phrase: "Can one just live luxuriously." I don't think we can. I think, no matter how much wealth one is blessed with, one needs to consider how we can use what God gives us to further His kingdom. The Parable of the Talents, in Luke 19 is a good one to study. I think it's clear from this text that God expects us to use whatever He gives us to further His kingdom. By contrast the rich man who decided to build bigger barns to hold all his wealth was condemned as a fool by God. (Luke 12) He was condemned not because of his wealth but because of his greed and the fact that he kept his treasure for himself.

So, I'm not going to judge anyone for what they drive, what they wear, or what they bathe in. And, I wouldn't stand for a moment, anyone judging me on these issues either. We do need to encourage each other to love and good works though, and to use what God blesses us with wisely.

Gabby, your point about careful give is a good one, too! I won't give money to anyone, except organizations that I know are well run and the funds wisely distributed. (And I check them out carefully)

I will always offer food to anyone hungry. It's amazing how often my offers of food have been outright turned down. This happened once when I was with my kids, and a homeless veteran in a wheel chair asked for some cash so that he could buy food. He specifically said that he hadn't eaten in several days. I told him I didn't have any cash on me, (which I didn't. I NEVER carry cash) but since there was a Burger King in the shopping center, I invited him to eat with us. He told me that he couldn't get his wheelchair up the ramp to the BK, because it's batteries were dead, but thanked me anyway. The kids and I went to the BK, and I watched him a bit. Sure enough, before we left, I saw someone give him a bill. And, sure enough, I watched as his chair batteries miraculously recharged enough to get him into the State Liquour store that was in the same shopping center. It turned out to be a great teaching moment for the kids.

 

[Free]

Hmmm. A marble bath with golden fixture and a plasma TV is a no-no? What about a molded plastic bathtub with dripping faucets and a ten year old thirteen inch TV?

Apples and oranges. Why waste money on a marble bath with golden fixtures and a plasma TV when a molded plastic bathtub with dripping faucets and a ten year old thirteen inch TV will do?

This is a matter of excess versus what is needed.

He wanted to be a minister of the gospel, and he wanted to be a millionaire. He is both of those things today. Should not Christians praise God for answering his prayers rather than condemning this man because God answered his prayers?

If he became a millionaire through his ministry I would be highly suspicious. But really, what kind of prayer is it to ask God to be a millionaire? Look at all of Christ's warnings about riches and what they do to a person. Look at what Solomon asked for -- wisdom, not riches. What about what Proverbs states:

Pro 30:7 Two things I ask of you; deny them not to me before I die:
Pro 30:8 Remove far from me falsehood and lying; give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with the food that is needful for me,
Pro 30:9 lest I be full and deny you and say, "Who is the LORD?" or lest I be poor and steal and profane the name of my God.

I learned to pray before I give anything to anybody now.

Why? Because people can be ungrateful and mean in return? What of the one leper that turned to thank Christ for his healing? We are to clothe, feed and give drink to those in need. While we ought to use discernment, I don't think we ought to have to pray about it.

Wealth, in abundance or the lack there of, is not really a good meter for judgment.

No, but what one's money is spent on is -- one's heart is where one's treasure is.

And, sure enough, I watched as his chair batteries miraculously recharged enough to get him into the State Liquour store that was in the same shopping center. It turned out to be a great teaching moment for the kids.

What did the kids learn? To not give money to someone in a wheelchair because they might be lying?


If we don't know for sure what someone may spend money on if we help them out, it is our moral obligation to help out. What they end up spending it on is really their business and if they lie to get our money, that's on their heads, not ours. We are to be obedient and help the poor. And to be sure, as handy pointed out, there are other ways of going about that to ensure the money goes to good things.

 

[handy]

If we don't know for sure what someone may spend money on if we help them out, it is our moral obligation to help out. What they end up spending it on is really their business and if they lie to get our money, that's on their heads, not ours. We are to be obedient and help the poor.

I disagree. If we know that there is a fairly good chance the money we give will be spent on drugs for an addict or whiskey for an alcoholic, I don't think we should give. I agree that we are to be obedient and help the poor. But, what is the definition of help? Is it helpful to enable a person to lie and cheat in order to further an addiction?

What I thought was a great teaching moment for the kids was the fact that they learned
a: It is our responsiblility to offer help when asked. Which I did, I did invite the man to eat with us.
and b: Giving money isn't always the best way to help.

Your post reminded me of something I did a long time ago, when I was still struggling on what it meant to help the poor. I was approached by two very nice looking girls who was asking for money to feed the poor of the City of San Franscisco. I dug around in my purse and found $5, while the group I was with had moved on. When I caught up, one of my group asked if I had given money to the girls. Then he told me what I didn't know, that they were Moonies, and the 'poor' I just helped 'feed' was the Reverend Sun Yung Moon. It was then I started being far more wise with my resources God gives me.

 

[tim-from-pa]

It's amazing how such a guilt-trip will be laid onto Christians because God has blessed them with wealth when there are poor all around. Even Judas tried that with Jesus when that costly ointment could "have been sold to help the poor". The devil himself speaking. Sometimes I think some people just want downright socialism or communism. They secretly hate the blessed life here that America has and more likely than not, they are secretly jealous because they don't have enough. So they do the next best thing---- much like a kid they try to deprive the next one who does have the toy they want. They forgot to check the primary source of their problem: the guy/gal in the mirror.

 

[Guest]

It's amazing how such a guilt-trip will be laid onto Christians because God has blessed them with wealth when there are poor all around. Even Judas tried that with Jesus when that costly ointment could "have been sold to help the poor". The devil himself speaking. Sometimes I think some people just want downright socialism or communism. They secretly hate the blessed life here that America has and more likely than not, they are secretly jealous because they don't have enough. So they do the next best thing---- much like a kid they try to deprive the next one who does have the toy they want. They forgot to check the primary source of their problem: the guy/gal in the mirror.

I am not sure it is about an economic system, but attempting to live out the Christian faith as Christ examplified, as the Apostles lived out, and the early Christians showed in Acts 4.

The question in regards to wealth is the manner in which it was accumulated, and ultimately what one did with it.

The costly ointment is a different scenario - in that it was used to shower Jesus in praise and honor. I believe that Jesus might have had a different response if the oil would have been used on one's self. Remember Christ's words to the rich young ruler.

 

[Free]

The question in regards to wealth is the manner in which it was accumulated, and ultimately what one did with it.

Exactly. And that is what I am getting at.

Sometimes I think some people just want downright socialism or communism.

I will not get into it other than to say: I guarantee that a much stronger biblical case can be made for socialism than for democracy.

They secretly hate the blessed life here that America has and more likely than not, they are secretly jealous because they don't have enough.

Do not confuse a denouncment of America's greed and materialism -- which has seeped into some denominations' views of the gospel -- with jealousy.


I am not against wealth or wealthy people; I am against wealth for the sake of wealth. Biblically, money is never meant to be an end in itself or a means of accumulating possessions. The purpose of wealth, from a biblical perspective, is to help in promoting the gospel and to help those in need.

 

[Lewis]

This has always been a sticky question for me, sometimes I feel I would be guilty if I have too much money because there are too many suffering people in the world, I have felt that christians generally should not be wealthy because that money should go to other courses. But still I dont understand it, God blessed Job tremendously with wealth, how about King David and Solomon? Does God still bless people with alot of wealth today and what does he intend us to do with it? Can one just live luxuriously ...

You been duped by the Christian-should-not-be-wealthy myth. Just look at the OT and the promises to and the history of Israel. God never expected His people to be poor, and indeed greatness including wealth was promised to them.

Tim you are right on the mark. But Jesus said that the poor will always be with us, so not everyone will have wealth. But there ain't a thing wrong with being rich. I wish I was.

 

[Guest]

[quote="tim_from_pa":484ab]
You been duped by the Christian-should-not-be-wealthy myth. Just look at the OT and the promises to and the history of Israel. God never expected His people to be poor, and indeed greatness including wealth was promised to them.

Tim you are right on the mark. But Jesus said that the poor will always be with us, so not everyone will have wealth. But there ain't a thing wrong with being rich. I wish I was. [/quote:484ab]

Peter, Paul, Stephen, Mark, Matthew, Luke, John, Timothy, Titus, Acts 4, and on and on I could go - I see spiritual wealth and success, not necessarily material wealth.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Peter, Paul, Stephen, Mark, Matthew, Luke, John, Timothy, Titus, Acts 4, and on and on I could go - I see spiritual wealth and success, not necessarily material wealth.

So, just what are "spiritual riches"? Consider this verse:

For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

Don't give me bunk this is "spiritual riches". If that were the case, then Jesus became poor meaning that He was Spiritually bankrupt. If so, then He would not be qualified Savior. He was of the lineage of David, and as such Joseph and the family were wealthy, but he decided to shun that wealth for our sakes knowing that He's have the earthly power later when he returned to claim the throne of David from the one holding it at that time.

Now consider what I say about the seed of Abraham being rich. They may not even be saved, but for the fathers' sakes, were to become populous, powerful and rich. Is this so that we can all glut in excess? No. If anyone claims I am teaching that, then they may be projecting their subconscious thinking onto me. Rather, His people were to be in a position of power and riches so that the chosen within that group bring the light of the gospel to the world.

 

[Lewis]

God blesses certain people to be rich, so that they can bless someone else. Having wealth and being selfish, is a sin, and also you are to sow into the Kingdom of God. Even though some of you don't think so.