How wealthy can a christian be?

[Vic C.]

God blesses certain people to be rich, so that they can bless someone else. Having wealth and being selfish, is a sin, and also you are to sow into the Kingdom of God. Even though some of you don't think so.

Personally, I believe what you just said is worth repeating. 8-)

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

[quote="Lewis W":ddfae]God blesses certain people to be rich, so that they can bless someone else. Having wealth and being selfish, is a sin, and also you are to sow into the Kingdom of God. Even though some of you don't think so.

Personally, I believe what you just said is worth repeating. 8-)[/quote:ddfae]
Likewise :wink:

 

[Guest]

Thought I would post some quotes in regards to money:

Money is like muck, not good until spread - Francis Bacon

Money is the new form of slavery, and distinguishable from the old simply by the fact that it is impersonal - that there is no human relation between master and slave. - Leo N. Tolstoy

Money can indeed be a servant, but it is a dangerous servant. It is a servant with such amazing potentialities that it requires a master big enough to control it, or else the roles will be reversed. The servant may overthrow the master and take his place. His is the real heart of the problem of personal riches. This is why the NT speaks against the accumulation of personal riches. Only God's kingdom and his justice can be a big enough purpose, a worthy enough cause for the final mastering of money. - J.R. Burkholder

Because money liberates, our society is so reluctant to see money given to the poor. If we approve welfare at all, we want it to be specified, to be limited, to pay the rent, to allocate food stamps. But not just plain money, no indeed! We justify these limitations by saying that the money might be misused. - J.R. Burkholder

Perhaps we are guilty of sacrificing leftovers to God. After we have bought everything we want, after we have taken care of ourselves, after we have watched all the TV programs we want, and have gone every place we want to go, if there is anything left over of time or energy or money, we offer this to God....Try to build into your living standard some sacrifice for the cause of Christ. - John Rudy

 

[Guest]

My take on money comes from a unique perspective. Neither side of my money had money. One of my grandfathers had made a very good living as a diesel mechanic; he earned about $350 a week in the 1950s. But my grandmother had major lifelong health problems from the time she was in her early 30s and my grandfather had to take disability retirement due to arthritis when he was in his early 50s.

My parents divorced when I was just 4. My father never paid child support and my mother often worked 50-60 hours a week to make ends meet. I attended college with scholarships and financial aid and then worked as a private school teacher before becoming a private tutor.

One of my uncles died unexpectedly in 2005 and I inherited about $40,000 in cash. Since I am not married, have no children and have a life insurance policy on myself that I can cash in when I turn 45, I would like to use my inheritance to establish a non-profit college prep Christian school or an environmental research and education center. I have contacted hundreds of churches, ministries, children’s homes, Christian colleges and homeless shelters over 5 states hoping I could find an organization that could provide land to build on and a volunteer labor force so I could use an environmentally sustainable technology to build the school. So far no organization is interested. A few pastors did express an interest in taking the money, but only as long as I gave up all say in how it is used. One college president told me that I don’t have enough money to do what I want to do, but then he had nerve enough to ask me to give him the money anyway.

If my experience in trying to give money away is any indication, Christian organizations don’t deserve any kind of wealth.

 

[J6o7h8n3]

I think that Christians have a warped view of riches and do not understand the Lazarus/rich man example shown in the bible.

If only the rich man was the last man in the parable of the good samaritan, he may not have ended up in hell. If you were caring for others with your wealth and using the money for the ministry I dont see how you can go wrong, however I would imagine the more wealth you have the more you would have to use as a broke man can do much more than a wealthy man can and it was proved in Mark 12:41-44; the story of the widows offering. So I would imagine the more you have, the more you have to invest.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

My take on money comes from a unique perspective. Neither side of my money had money. One of my grandfathers had made a very good living as a diesel mechanic; he earned about $350 a week in the 1950s. But my grandmother had major lifelong health problems from the time she was in her early 30s and my grandfather had to take disability retirement due to arthritis when he was in his early 50s.

My parents divorced when I was just 4. My father never paid child support and my mother often worked 50-60 hours a week to make ends meet. I attended college with scholarships and financial aid and then worked as a private school teacher before becoming a private tutor.

One of my uncles died unexpectedly in 2005 and I inherited about $40,000 in cash. Since I am not married, have no children and have a life insurance policy on myself that I can cash in when I turn 45, I would like to use my inheritance to establish a non-profit college prep Christian school or an environmental research and education center. I have contacted hundreds of churches, ministries, children’s homes, Christian colleges and homeless shelters over 5 states hoping I could find an organization that could provide land to build on and a volunteer labor force so I could use an environmentally sustainable technology to build the school. So far no organization is interested. A few pastors did express an interest in taking the money, but only as long as I gave up all say in how it is used. One college president told me that I don’t have enough money to do what I want to do, but then he had nerve enough to ask me to give him the money anyway.

If my experience in trying to give money away is any indication, Christian organizations don’t deserve any kind of wealth.

Hi flaja,

Have you ever asked God what He wants you to do with the money? Or told Him what you would like to do with it and asked Him to make it happen? If His blessings are on it, it will be multiplied to meet the needs, He will provide everything that you need to reach your goals. If you are leaning on your own understanding and trying to reach a goal without Him, you will continue to struggle.

 

[Drew]

God blesses certain people to be rich, so that they can bless someone else. Having wealth and being selfish, is a sin, and also you are to sow into the Kingdom of God. Even though some of you don't think so.

I agree with this but I think some further analysis is required. I suggest that, even though this might make us all uncomfortable, in the present world, if someone is rich, then they must be selfish. To suggest that in a world where millions lack the essentials, that one can be rich and not be selfish is a contradictions in terms.

Let me try to spell this out. Let's say that Fred is a rich Christian - he has > 1 million dollars in assets and a job that pays 100,000 per year. Can Fred "hold on" to his money and legitimately claim to not be selfish? I think that the uncomfortable answer is clearly "no".

The reason is this: Fred obviously could get by on his $ 100,000 salary with, say, only $200,000 of assets (this being generous to Fred - he probably does not need even this $ 200,000 of assets over and above his salary income). Fred knows that his "extra" $ 800,000 can literally save lives by giving the wretched of this word food, shelter, and medical care.

So what does it mean if Fred elects to keep his $ 800,000 in light of such knowledge on his part?

It means that Fred is selfish.

We need to avoid the manifestly incorrect way of thinking that asserts that "We need rich people so that they in turn can be a blessing to the poor". This is not true. We need people with wealth generation capability who actually give their money away, not people with wealth generation capability that hold onto it.

 

[Drew]

It's amazing how such a guilt-trip will be laid onto Christians because God has blessed them with wealth when there are poor all around. Even Judas tried that with Jesus when that costly ointment could "have been sold to help the poor". The devil himself speaking. Sometimes I think some people just want downright socialism or communism. They secretly hate the blessed life here that America has and more likely than not, they are secretly jealous because they don't have enough. So they do the next best thing---- much like a kid they try to deprive the next one who does have the toy they want. They forgot to check the primary source of their problem: the guy/gal in the mirror.

There are literally millions of people in this world who lack for the essentials of life - food, shelter, medecine, security - who are in that position through the evil behaviour of others and no fault of their own. I imagine that one could probably make a case that our wealthy western society has been built, to a certain degree, on exploiting others in other parts of the world. But I will stop short of such a claim, at least for now.

The argument that one can lay the "blame" for poverty at the feet of the poor person himself is manifestly false as a generalization. It may be true in some cases, but I'll bet not in the majority.

 

[MrVersatile48]

See also Rev 3:14-22 @ http://www.BibleGateway.org

To the Church in Laodicea

14 "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.

15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!

16 So, because you are lukewarmâ€â€neither hot nor coldâ€â€I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

17 You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.

18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.

20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.

21 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.

22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

Ian

 

[MrVersatile48]

See also

Broken Bonds

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=29946&p=348222#p348222

'There's something rotten in the state of Denmark' - as Hamlet would say

I have twice posted Revelation 18 @ http://www.BibleGateway.org & it's twice been deleted

What enemy of the gospel is trying to hide the Bible prophecy of global financial collapse?

"You can't serve both God & money" said Jesus

Ian

 

[MrVersatile48]

Revelation 18

The Fall Of Babylon

1 After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven. He had great authority, and the earth was illuminated by his splendor.

2 With a mighty voice he shouted:
"Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!
She has become a home for demons
and a haunt for every evil[a] spirit,
a haunt for every unclean and detestable bird.

3 For all the nations have drunk
the maddening wine of her adulteries.
The kings of the earth committed adultery with her,
and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries."

4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
"Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
5 for her sins are piled up to heaven,
and God has remembered her crimes.

6 Give back to her as she has given;
pay her back double for what she has done.
Mix her a double portion from her own cup.

7 Give her as much torture and grief
as the glory and luxury she gave herself.
In her heart she boasts,
'I sit as queen; I am not a widow,
and I will never mourn.'

8Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her:
death, mourning and famine.
She will be consumed by fire,
for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.

9 "When the kings of the earth who committed adultery with her and shared her luxury see the smoke of her burning, they will weep and mourn over her.

10 Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry:
" 'Woe! Woe, O great city,
O Babylon, city of power!
In one hour your doom has come!'

11 "The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes any moreâ€â€

12 cargoes of gold, silver, precious stones and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet cloth; every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory, costly wood, bronze, iron and marble;

13 cargoes of cinnamon and spice, of incense, myrrh and frankincense, of wine and olive oil, of fine flour and wheat; cattle and sheep; horses and carriages; and bodies and souls of men.

14 "They will say, 'The fruit you longed for is gone from you. All your riches and splendor have vanished, never to be recovered.'

15 The merchants who sold these things and gained their wealth from her will stand far off, terrified at her torment. They will weep and mourn

16 and cry out:
" 'Woe! Woe, O great city,
dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet,
and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls!

17In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!'

"Every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors, and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off.


18 When they see the smoke of her burning, they will exclaim, 'Was there ever a city like this great city?'

19 They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out:
" 'Woe! Woe, O great city,
where all who had ships on the sea
became rich through her wealth!
In one hour she has been brought to ruin!

20 Rejoice over her, O heaven!
Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets!
God has judged her for the way she treated you.' "

21 Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said:
"With such violence
the great city of Babylon will be thrown down,
never to be found again.

22 The music of harpists and musicians, flute players and trumpeters,
will never be heard in you again.
No workman of any trade
will ever be found in you again.
The sound of a millstone
will never be heard in you again.

23 The light of a lamp will never shine in you again.
The voice of bridegroom and bride
will never be heard in you again.
Your merchants were the world's great men.
By your magic spell all the nations were led astray.

24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints,
and of all who have been killed on the earth."

Footnotes:

Revelation 18:2 Greek unclean

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Deuteronomy 8:11-18 Beware that thou forget not the LORD thy God, in not keeping his commandments, and his judgments, and his statutes, which I command thee this day:
Lest [when] thou hast eaten and art full, and hast built goodly houses, and dwelt [therein];
And [when] thy herds and thy flocks multiply, and thy silver and thy gold is multiplied, and all that thou hast is multiplied;
Then thine heart be lifted up, and thou forget the LORD thy God, which brought thee forth out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage;
Who led thee through that great and terrible wilderness, [wherein were] fiery serpents, and scorpions, and drought, where [there was] no water; who brought thee forth water out of the rock of flint;
Who fed thee in the wilderness with manna, which thy fathers knew not, that he might humble thee, and that he might prove thee, to do thee good at thy latter end;
And thou say in thine heart, My power and the might of [mine] hand hath gotten me this wealth.
But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for [it is] he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as [it is] this day.


a·mor·al ADJECTIVE: Not admitting of moral distinctions or judgments; neither moral nor immoral.

One of the most common of satan's traps is to set something amoral before a Christian and ask them to explain if it is moral or immoral. Fire is neither good, nor evil. It can be used for both. Money, by itself, is amoral. Neither good nor evil. The heart of the person that possesses it, the heart of the person that seeks it, the purposes for which the money is used, these are the things that can be judged as either good or evil.

To choose to have 'just enough' is one of the most selfish things a Christian can do. Enough to pay my bills, meet my needs, and cover a bit of entertainment, and then just 10% more to cover the tithe.

One should desire enough to meet their needs, plus an abundance to be used to do the work of the Lord. God is not looking for the bottom line, or percentages. Money comes with responsibility. My prayer is that the Lord would search the hearts of His people, find those who are willing to go into all of the world to preach the gospel, and open the windows of heaven to pour out blessings on them. My prayer is that those who have a heart to serve the Lord would also know the material blessings, comforts, and joy that He offers. May those who are willing to go into all of the world to carry the gospel ~ be blessed with an abundance of cars, planes, literature, employees, computers, cameras, and microphones, along with an abundance of wisdom, knowledge and understanding.

May they also have a comfortable place to bathe, and be able to enjoy entertaining and informative broadcasts on a really cool TV.

Amen?

 

[Vic C.]

9. Personality and Activities.

Wesley was the busiest man in England. He traveled almost constantly, generally on horseback, preaching twice or thrice a day. He formed societies, opened chapels, examined and commissioned preachers, administered discipline, raised funds for schools, chapels, and charities, prescribed for the sick, superintended schools and orphanages, prepared commentaries and a vast amount of other religious literature, replied to attacks on Methodism, conducted controversies, and carried on a prodigious correspondence.

He is believed to have traveled in the course of his itinerant ministry more than 250,000 miles, and to have preached more than 40,000 times. The number of works he wrote, translated, or edited, exceeds 200. The list includes sermons, commentaries, hymns, a Christian library of fifty volumes, and other religious literature-- grammars, dictionaries, and other textbooks, as well as political tracts. He is said to have received not less than 20,000 for his publications, but he used little of it for himself. His charities were limited only by his means. He died poor.

He rose at four in the morning, lived simply and methodically, and was never idle, unless by compulsion. In person he was rather under the medium height, well proportioned, strong, with a bright eye, a clear complexion, and a saintly, intellectual face. He married very unhappily, at the age of forty-eight, a widow, and had no children. He died, after a short illness in which he had great spiritual peace and joy, leaving as the result of his life-work 135,000 members, and 541 itinerant preachers, owning the name "Methodist."

http://www.swordsearcher.com/christian- ... esley.html

 

[handy]

One of the most common of satan's traps is to set something amoral before a Christian and ask them to explain if it is moral or immoral. Fire is neither good, nor evil. It can be used for both. Money, by itself, is amoral. Neither good nor evil. The heart of the person that possesses it, the heart of the person that seeks it, the purposes for which the money is used, these are the things that can be judged as either good or evil.

I agree with this. I really do agree with this! Very sound theologial point there!

To choose to have 'just enough' is one of the most selfish things a Christian can do. Enough to pay my bills, meet my needs, and cover a bit of entertainment, and then just 10% more to cover the tithe.

Now, you're beginning to lose me. I don't necessarily see this as selfish. I'll explain in a minute.

One should desire enough to meet their needs, plus an abundance to be used to do the work of the Lord. God is not looking for the bottom line, or percentages. Money comes with responsibility. My prayer is that the Lord would search the hearts of His people, find those who are willing to go into all of the world to preach the gospel, and open the windows of heaven to pour out blessings on them.

Fair enough. And, with the Internet, it's getting easier and easier to go into all the world. But, one really doesn't need a lot of weath to get the gospel out. This is just as true today as it was in Wesley's day. Or Paul's day for that matter.

My prayer is that those who have a heart to serve the Lord would also know the material blessings, comforts, and joy that He offers. May those who are willing to go into all of the world to carry the gospel ~ be blessed with an abundance of cars, planes, literature, employees, computers, cameras, and microphones, along with an abundance of wisdom, knowledge and understanding.

May they also have a comfortable place to bathe, and be able to enjoy entertaining and informative broadcasts on a really cool TV.

Amen?

Again, you're losing me. Here's why: We are all on a different path. What may be good for one, may not be good for all. Take for instance your quote, that choosing to have 'just enough' is selfish. I disagree. Sometimes choosing to live on just enough is the most important thing to do. Example? Take my own family. The Lord never fails to meet our needs on a day to day basis, but we have just enough. We are driving older model cars, buy our clothes on sale at discount stores, yadda-yadda. Our biggest 'splurges' are the satalite TV at the most basic service with no frills (without which we would have no TV whatsoever), and my cheap, somewhat unreliable computer and cheap, somewhat unreliable ISP.

Why do we choose to get by on 'just enough' when we both are college educated and could be able to make way more than we do? Because of our kids. Both of our kids are adopted from the foster care programs. They both came with us with deep emotional scars. Our daughter came to us with some scars that weren't so emotional either, but thankfully the ones on her face have completely disappeard. We were her 5th home in life, and she was only 3 when she came to live with us. Steve and I both agreed that we would live very simply, 'just enough' so that we could live on one paycheck and allow me to stay home. By me staying home and have the kind of home that we do, which is a kid paradise, even if it is pretty inconvient at times for me, has gone a long way towards allowing our kids to heal and overcome their very rough start in life. This is the work that the Lord has given us to do at this time in our lives. To do otherwise, would be going against His will for us. Sure, if He wanted to, He could pour out an abundance of material weath and we could live large. But, while we're more than willing to be blessed in this way, so far He hasn't choosen to do so, and that's OK.

Vic posted an excellent account on one man of God who was able to do a great work for the Lord and still die poor. There are also some great men of God who do wonderful works for God and get quite rich. Your first quote, the one about money being amoral, and that it's the heart of the person with the money and the uses to which they put the money that is either good or evil was...dare I say it... right on the money (gag). It is neither moral, nor immoral to have wealth or 'just enough'. But, we were created for His purposes. And, He will give us what we need to accomplish those purposes according to His riches and His glory.

I don't doubt that I'll reside in a mansion one day, and maybe that mansion will be fitted with golden plumbing. I'm not sure, as Jesus is the One preparing it. He knows the heart of His country girl though, and I won't mind if my mansion doesn't have gold plumbing, if it's sitting on a hill, much like the one my double-wide is sitting on right now. I'm sure whatever He comes up with will far surpass whatever I might obtain here on earth, and I'm more than willing to wait until then.

 

[Vic C.]

Awe-inspiring post, Handy. It brought tears to my eyes... not good, since I'm still in my little techroom, at work. 8-)

Vic posted an excellent account on one man of God who was able to do a great work for the Lord and still die poor. There are also some great men of God who do wonderful works for God and get quite rich.

So that you and gabby know, it wasn't my intention to dismantle gabby's post; it was just meant to show the flip side of how God can work HIS wonders with next to nothing (hmm, Moses also comes to mind). It occurred to me as I was sitting behind the PC in the Youth Pastor's office last night, that I recalled somewhere a few years ago that Wesley died poor, so I looked it up. (slaps head) I didn't even think of Paul. :

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

We are all on a different path. What may be good for one, may not be good for all.

Hence the definition of amoral.
We tend to focus on the Christian who is wealthy, and it is often assumed that one who is wealthy is also greedy.
We never hear about the poor folks who use poverty as an excuse for never giving anything, or the poor man who obsesses on get rich quick schemes and places his faith and trust in lottery tickets.

 

[handy]

We tend to focus on the Christian who is wealthy, and it is often assumed that one who is wealthy is also greedy.
We never hear about the poor folks who use poverty as an excuse for never giving anything, or the poor man who obsesses on get rich quick schemes and places his faith and trust in lottery tickets.

Now, I'm in total agreement with you on this one. And the parable of the talents is one that shows that God expects us to be faithful with whatever He has given us.

It brought tears to my eyes... not good, since I'm still in my little techroom, at work.

Careful there, buddy. I wouldn't want you to blow something up or anything. :smt073
:

 

[Guest]

What if we lived to put "charities" out of business?

Are we to give out of our abudance or our "just enough"?

Does God not supply our every need or our abudance supply our need?

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Another thought on the subject:

I believe that Scripture teaches that the wealth of the wicked is laid up for the righteous. I, for one, am praying that the enemies of the cross find themselves bankrupt, and that things stolen would become a curse in the way that the Arc of the Covenant was a curse to the Philistines. A curse so great that the wicked can not wait to abandon it.

That said; all of that $$$ needs to go somewhere.

My prayer is that God puts it into the hands of people that use it for His glory, and that none of it is used to finance the enemy camp.

 

[Guest]

Another thought on the subject:
That said; all of that $$$ needs to go somewhere.

My prayer is that God puts it into the hands of people that use it for His glory, and that none of it is used to finance the enemy camp.

It's very interesting to see Christians claim that there is no problem with being wealthy, when in fact there is... God has provided people with everything they need in order to live a good life, but God did not make money! Money is the product of Capitalism!

Note: I say that Money is a product of Capitalism, but some may argue that Capitalism is a product of Money (since coins were made before Capitalism). My argument is for the modern-day wealth that Christians are usually concerned with; we can still look back and determine if money is or is not even supposed to exist.

By wealth, in Biblical terms, one usually understands the ownership of land, live-stock and goods, not money. Money, unlike goods, does not spoil! Money is an unlimited resource, the Government (uncontrolled by God) can print more money. But looking towards the future, we may not even need to have paper money but Credits (like credit cards) which represent some value of labor or goods which we agreed upon. This takes us further and further away from the abundance and wealth the Bible talks about.

So according to the Bible, God provides everything in abundance, but even that isn't entirely true. The earth has a limited amount of resources which, as we see, can be depleted. If humans keep reproducing without regulation, as the Bible and God suggest that people should, eventually there will be too many people to live off the resources that are present on Earth.

But back to the question: "How wealthy can a Christian be?" and my answer would be: Christians should not be wealthy in the current sense of the worth (having a lot of money), but they may be wealthy enough (in God given resources) to support themselves and a bit more to give to charity.

But we don't live in a place and time where money does not exist, so can a person live in a Capitalist society and be a "true" Christian? I guess we're back to square one, but I'd say it would be REALLY difficult to be a good Christian and a Capitalist. Capitalism and Christianity are highly contradictive concepts.