Hybrid Vehicles

[Free]

After my little rant on iPhones, I figured I would start one about hybrid cars, particularly electric. I will say outright that I am all for cleaning up the environment and that we should all do what we can.

So many people are quick to jump on the bandwagon of electric vehicles because they are "clean" and "environmentally friendly". The problem is that the batteries used are most likely nickel-metal-hydride (Ni-MH), as in the Prius Hybrid.

The problem with rechargeable batteries is that they are only good for so many discharge and recharge cycles. Eventually, all the batteries in these electric cars will have to get replaced (I can only imagine what that would cost), and likely more than once.

The main problem is that nickel mining is very bad on the environment. One site, actually a Top Gear video on youtube claims that over the life of the Prius Hybrid, it is more harmful on the environment than a Hummer.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=prius+vs+m3&search_type=&aq=1&oq=prius+

Anyways, all this just to say, don't be so quick to jump on alternative fuels (some of them are more harmful on the environment to produce than oil) or electric vehicles. It's mostly fear-mongering--and fear, like sex, sells.

 

[Photosmith]

Generally the easiest way to identify impact is to look at cost. This isn't true for all things (for example, paintings can be very expensive, with very low environmental impact) but for mass-produced goods, generally the more something costs, the more impact it has.

For example, a luxury car may cost $50,000 and weigh 4-5000 pounds, have rare leather imported from Europe, wood trim from south america, complex electronics from Korea, and so on and so forth. The large number of parts, the large weight of steel and aluminum that had to be mined for the frame and structure, transporting all of these items to their assembly plants, all of that adds to the impact. Compare it against a $15-20k compact car that weighs 2500-3000 pounds and has simpler, local materials, and obviously much fewer raw materials based on the weight of the end product, and its clear that it should have lower environmental impact.

Things that are hard to obtain are expensive to obtain. This is simple supply and demand. This is why a 100 pound NiMH battery pack is $1500 when a 100 pound lead-acid battery is $100. Lead and sulpheric acid are far more common than nickel and less expensive to arrange into a battery. As such, 100 pounds of lead-acid battery is far cheaper than 100 pounds of nickel batteries and although lead-acid batteries are about 500 times as toxic to groundwater supplies, their impact for production is lower.

Bottom line is that cost is the best indicator of impact. I think you could easily argue a Prius has a greater impact than a Yaris, since the Prius is more complex and costs $10,000 more to buy and probably won't save $10,000 worth of gas versus a Yaris. However the CNW Marketing study (the one that claimed a Hummer has lower impact than a Prius) has been discredited by every legitimate research lab and university which has analyzed it. CNW Marketing says whatever you want them to as long as you pay them enough. What's why it's called a marketing firm, not a research lab.

I've read quite a lot about environmental impact and the bottom line is always dollars. The more you spend, the more the impact is. People try to break it down to things like air travel's impact versus home heating, electricity usage, etc but all of those things have impact which is fairly appropriate to their cost. The more money you spend on manufactured goods and consumables, the greater the impact tends to be. There's exceptions, sure, like buying locally grown food generally has lower impact than imported food, even if the local food costs more, although even that can end up being false if the reason the local food costs more is because they have to use greenhouses with electric climate control and heavy fertilizier usage and irrigation versus imported foods that grow freely in low-fertilizer intensive fields.

Bottom line tends to remain the same - the more you spend, the greater the impact. That's the easiest way to break it down.

 

[Paidion]

I have two "hybrids" (actually a misnomer. A hybrid is not "half-electric/half-gasoline". It's a car with a gasoline motor assisted by a powerful battery).

The first one, a Honda Insight, is a small, two seater, manual transmission and gets about 70 miles to a gallon of Canadian gas.

This year I bought a Honda Civic Hybrid, with a larger and more powerful engine, four-door, with a continuously variable transmission. It goes about 50 miles to a Canadian gallon. Not bad, either.

I almost bought a car that will operate on E85 (85% ethanol, 15% gasoline) but I found that all models which use this fuel simply use too much fuel in general. However, I think it's great for people to have cars which use this fuel. They are supporting the U.S corn farmers (field corn not used for human consumption) instead of the big oil cartel. Arab terrorists?

Only the starch from the corn is used to make ethanol. The other nutritional parts of the corn are made into food for farm animals.

There is a myth that the means of producing ethanol is harder on the environment than simply using gasoline in vehicles. And that's what is is --- merely a myth.

 

[stovebolts]

So many people are quick to jump on the bandwagon of electric vehicles because they are "clean" and "environmentally friendly". The problem is that the batteries used are most likely nickel-metal-hydride (Ni-MH), as in the Prius Hybrid.

For your reading pleasure :D

http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editoria ... NewsID=188

Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. As already noted, the Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the ‘dead zone’ around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.

http://ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=1134627

It's so much fun to see what makes a difference'' in driving styles and conditions. ``I get much better gas mileage going to Tucson than driving back to Patagonia _ elevation. If it's a really windy day, it knocks off 4 or 5 miles a gallon.''

Not every hybrid owner is as enthusiastic. Jennifer Sordyl, a Green Valley music teacher and professional musician, was shocked when she had to pay $4,000 for a new battery pack for her Honda Civic hybrid last year.

She bought the 2003 car used in May, 2005, for $14,300 with 30,000 miles on it. The battery failed when the car hit 150,000 miles, Sordyl said, not long past its projected life expectancy.

She said the car's mileage has dropped from 47 to 53 mpg, when she got the car, to 41 to 43 mpg more recently.

All that being said, GM is working on Lithium-ion batteries.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-9881869-54.html

If Simbol Mining's plans work out, within a decade it will deliver one-fourth of the world's increasing demand for lithium, used in batteries of hybrid and electric cars without creating waste or pollution.

 

[stovebolts]

I almost bought a car that will operate on E85 (85% ethanol, 15% gasoline) but I found that all models which use this fuel simply use too much fuel in general. However, I think it's great for people to have cars which use this fuel. They are supporting the U.S corn farmers (field corn not used for human consumption) instead of the big oil cartel. Arab terrorists?

You should have bought it. As Gas goes up again, and since corn demand is well below normal, not to mention Obama's green movement which includes E-85 (think switch grass), the cost of Ethenol will be far less than the cost of a gallon of gas. I feel comfortable saying that within the next 5 years, gas will be back around 5 bucks a gallon or more and E-85 will be around 2 bucks.

 

[Vic C.]

All that being said, GM is working on Lithium-ion batteries

They are behind the times as usual. :D Toshiba and other manufacturers have been on this fast charging battery technology for almost two years.

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2008/01/worlds-first-li/

...and they won't catch fire and explode either!

 

[stovebolts]

All that being said, GM is working on Lithium-ion batteries

They are behind the times as usual. :D Toshiba and other manufacturers have been on this fast charging battery technology for almost two years.

Last time I checked, Toshiba isn't making cars ;) GM, however, does partner with suppliers to make parts for their cars.

Anyway, I remember seeing some of the first fuel cells and battery packs back in 2002 at the Warren Tech center's R&D building. Even got to talk to a few of the Dr's about them.

I'll do some digging with my friend at Power Train, but I believe GM's role is to optimize the battery.

http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServ ... ocid=44828

* Battery engineers develop new computer testing procedure, leverage global resources to accelerate development of extended-range electric vehicles (E-REV)
* Engineers integrate T-shaped battery into vehicle structure
* Designers improve aerodynamics to lower energy consumption

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2008/01/worlds-first-li/

...and they won't catch fire and explode either!

We aint talking about Dell laptops here

But anyway, the link you provided only tells about the company that's producing the batteries for GM and Chrysler... I didn't read anything about Toshiba but again, isn't that a moot point?

 

[Vic C.]

Last time I checked, Toshiba isn't making cars.

... and GM doesn't make batteries either.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22240865/

TOKYO - A new battery that can be recharged to 90 percent capacity in under five minutes and lasts 10 years will start shipping in March, Toshiba Corp. announced this week, hailing it as "a new energy solution" for cleaner transportation.

Toshiba plans to initially make the quick-charging Super Charge ion Battery for electric bikes, forklifts, construction machinery and other industrial use. It can work in temperatures as low as minus 22 degrees Fahrenheit.

A newcomer in rechargeable batteries, Toshiba said the lithium-ion battery could be used in hybrid and electric cars by 2010, Mochida said.

We aint talking about Dell laptops here.

:toofunny

 

[stovebolts]

Last time I checked, Toshiba isn't making cars.

... and GM doesn't make batteries either.

That's why GM, as well as all automotive manufacturers have suppliers ;) GM dictates to the suppliers what is needed and the suppliers produce what is in demand. :yes GM doesn't make bolts or windshield either, but they do dictate the quality :nag But anyway, I have my athiest buddy who is very close to the hybred team at Power Train so I'll give him a call on my way home tonight and see if he'll throw me a bone.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22240865/

TOKYO - A new battery that can be recharged to 90 percent capacity in under five minutes and lasts 10 years will start shipping in March, Toshiba Corp. announced this week, hailing it as "a new energy solution" for cleaner transportation.

Toshiba plans to initially make the quick-charging Super Charge ion Battery for electric bikes, forklifts, construction machinery and other industrial use. It can work in temperatures as low as minus 22 degrees Fahrenheit.

A newcomer in rechargeable batteries, Toshiba said the lithium-ion battery could be used in hybrid and electric cars by 2010, Mochida said.

That's cool! GM needs a battery that will last upward of 10 years because as it sat, the battery they had only lasted two years and cost six grand to replace. Boy do I need to talk to my athiest friend more often

We aint talking about Dell laptops here.

:toofunny

Hey, how come my last post my head was slanted to the right, now I'm slanted to the left? :biglol