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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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I’ve had second thoughts about the gospel
- Thread starter John Zain
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John Zain
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- Sep 16, 2010
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I’ve been having second thoughts about what Jesus’ gospel really is all about!
Jesus’ gospel means Jesus’ good news.
Jesus’ GOOD NEWS includes the fact that God is a personal God who really cares about people!
So, Jesus preached the word, performed miraculous healings, and cast demons out of people.
Jesus came to preach the gospel, to heal the sick, and to help people spiritually
“The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives (of Satan)
and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed …” (Luke 4:18)
Jesus evangelized with spiritual power, demonstrating God’s love and compassion for the people
“And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people … and they brought to Him all sick people who were afflicted with various diseases and torments, and those who were demon-possessed, epileptics, and paralytics; and He healed them.” (Matthew 4:23-24)
“When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick …” (Matthew 8:16)
“Then Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.”
(Matthew 9:35)
Jesus gave His disciples spiritual power and instructed them what to say and do
“And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits,
to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. … These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: ‘… And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons.”
(Matthew 10:1-8)
“Then He called His twelve disciples together and gave them power and authority over all demons,
and to cure diseases. He sent them to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick.
… So they departed and went through the towns, preaching the gospel and healing everywhere.” (Luke 9:1-6)
“After these things the Lord appointed seventy others also, and sent them out two by two …
‘And heal the sick there, and say to them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’ ’ …
Then the 70 returned with joy, saying, ‘Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.’ ” (Luke 10:1-17)
Jesus’ told His disciples what to do after His ascension
“Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized
will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will follow those
who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them;
they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” … And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.”
(Mark 16:15-20)
After Jesus’ ascension, the apostles continued preaching with signs and wonders
“And through the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done among the people.
… And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women …
Also a multitude gathered from the surrounding cities to Jerusalem, bringing sick people
and those who were tormented by unclean spirits, and they were all healed.” (Acts 5:12-16)
“And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and signs among the people.” (Acts 6:8)
“Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria and preached Christ to them. And the multitudes
with one accord heeded the things spoken by Philip, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. For unclean spirits, crying with a loud voice, came out of many who were possessed; and many
who were paralyzed and lame were healed. And there was great joy in that city.” (Acts 8:5-8)
How Paul evangelized
“And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom,
but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.” (1 Corinthians 2:4-5)
“… in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God, so that from Jerusalem and round about to Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.” (Romans 15:19)
The New Testament
Everything was recorded and written down for our knowledge and use.
We know what the apostles said and did, and we have exactly the same information they had.
Their preaching and performing miracles always went hand in hand.
What’s the difference between then and now?
Then … Multitudes of lost people needed to be evangelized, and they didn't have Bibles.
Now … Multitudes of lost people need to be evangelized, and they don't have Bibles.
… People need to be evangelized in exactly the same way as was done 2000 years ago.
… The same gospel message needs to also be confirmed by signs, wonders, and miracles.
One major difference
Satan has had many hundreds of years to deceive the church into believing
that the spiritual power gifts are not for today.
You know who Satan is … “the god of this world”, “the ruler of this world”,
the greatest liar and deceiver in the history of this world.
The time is short …
the church needs to get the revelation about what is necessary to evangelize the lost!
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John Zain
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News Flash …
Historically, man has always been a spiritual idiot.
Historically, Satan has always been the world’s greatest liar and deceiver.
So for 1900 years, many have been deceived into believing God’s signs have ceased.
But, they have not ceased, and now they are really needed!
A parallel is obvious …
Jesus and the apostles used signs and wonders to evangelize people who had no Bibles.
But guess what, today we have literally millions of villages world-wide with no Bibles.
Many thousands of Muslim villages have no Bibles (they don’t even have Qur’ans).
Many thousands of Hindu, Buddhist, etc. villages of course have no Bibles.
These villages will respond to the gospel when it is verified by God’s mighty miracles!
This is what is required to break hundreds of years of satanic strongholds.
Who believes this … and who has faith … and who wants to be called to go forth?
R
rrowell
Guest
There is a difference in "Not Having Bibles", and "Bibles Not Existing"
If everyone would realize that the "that" in "that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part will be done away", simply means that "that which is perfect" described here is the "Bible" and not Jesus (Nowhere else in the Bible has Jesus ever been referred to as "that", besides if it were Jesus, at the time this was penned he had already come, he said "come" not "come again")
1 Corinthians 13:10 (KJV)
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
Until the Bible was finished, the Apostles "Knew in part" and "prophesy in part" (see the preceding verse 9.) what Paul knew Peter may not etc... they only knew what was revealed to them, once the Bible was completed, it ended the Apostolic age, and the Miracles they performed with it..,
1 Corinthians 13:9 (KJV)
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
We are commissioned to go throughout the world and preach the Gospel... if someone knows someone does not have a bible, they need to get them one and teach them what is in it...
Mark 16:15 (KJV)
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
John Zain
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Greetings!
The OP says the "perfect" refers to Jesus at His future Second Coming.
In each of those several million villages (post 3), you will meet many "someones"
who have no Bibles. Then you're all set, you just give each one of them a Bible,
hold Bible classes for a few years, and everything will be great.
Let's see ... it should only take you maybe 25 million years!
What am I doing in this forum anyway? ... Am I out of my mind?
R
rrowell
Guest
See, even those who have Bibles fail to use them rightly dividing the word of God :
Ephesians 4:11-16 (KJV)
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
It is the Bible, and the Church that is the Perfect that 1 Cor. 13:10 speaks of, the Bible and the Church is the "that", Christ has not once in the Bible referred to as "that" and is rather rude to refer to him as such...
No, your not out of your mind, just learning like the rest of us.
John Zain
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Okay, no point in arguing the Scriptures.
What sayest thou to the many millions of people worldwide who have come to the Lord
in da past few decades as a direct result of being presented with the glorious gospel,
the truth of which was verified by signs, wonders, and miracles?
Thou mayest claim that these were the workings of Satan,
but thou risketh blaspheming the (work of the) Holy Spirit.
What sayest thou? (Can't wait, dis should be good!)
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John Zain
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From an Administrator in a non-denominational Christian Forum …
I was once a Cessationist and I BATTLED AGAINST this topic... all I was doing was battling against God. I surrendered... finally surrendered and a lot of what I wrote above is what He showed me and pointed out to me. I ignored and refused to accept all those scriptures and events I mention in this post while I was in bondage to the Cessationist doctrine(s). All those chapters might as well been removed from all the Bible's I had. When I surrendered, first seeing, and then understanding, and then accepted the truth of those scriptures followed. Until I threw away that man-made Cessationist doctrine... what God did in my heart "was not possible." The "cliche" about having "one's eye's opened"... well... when eyes ARE opened to the truth... they can't be closed again. My eyes were not opened and that cessationist doctrine ENSURED that they stayed closed to the truth of God's Word. Thus the very HARD period of surrender began some years ago.
I posted:
Almost everyone turns a blind eye to what God has been doing in the way of signs/wonders/miracles.
But, at least they refrain from attributing it all to Satan.
And he responded to me:
I've raised this fact in many other threads. People don't understand if they CAN'T call a s/w/m of satan... they need to REALLY look into their heart and ask God... WHY not?
This is one of the MAIN elements in God leading me OUT of the cessationist bondage
until the day I was finally free of it. Then I was truly able to "see" what was false (of satan), fake (of man), and what was real (of God).
R
rrowell
Guest
If one blasphemes the Holy Spirit, one is lost...
One must know what blaspheming the holy spirit is before one accuses one of doing such a serious offense (committing the unforgivable sin) and I would be very careful using it as it could easily backfire on you...
I have given you scripture that I believe proves that these what you call "signs, wonders, and miracles" do not happen today as they did before the Bible...
It is much safer for your own soul to show me biblical proof they exist today than to accuse someone of blaspheming the Holy Spirit as defense for such behavior carried on in some so called churches today...
I really do suggest you do a good study on what blaspheming the Holy Spirit is (the unforgivable sin) before you try throwing that about again...
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R
rrowell
Guest
I never once said in my previous post that you are seeing the works of satan, I simply showed biblical proof that what you believe is happening is in fact not what the bible teaches. To say it is the work of satain would have to have been a conclusion you have drawn yourself.
John Zain
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To satisfy you, the word would have to say the s/w/m will NEVER cease.
And, there are things in the word which are said to last forever: God, the word of God, etc.
Also, I very recently had an idea ...
Paul was absolutely right by saying the gifts would cease.
But, he did NOT say for how long ... he did not say they would cease FOREVER.
That leaves the door open for them to return at some point, which they most definitely have.
Just in time for the very last days ... see Joel 2.
Was Peter mistaken when he thought Joel 2 applied to the Day of Pentecost?
Or do the last days last for 2000 years?
I know what that blasphemy is all about ... I was just testing you.
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Brightmorningstar
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rrowell,
Jesus sent out the apostles to perform signs and wonders and teach disciples to obey all He commanded, healing was what He commanded.
The dangers are that on the one hand Satan can also perform signs and wonders, and on the other even he cant perform them for people who simply dont believe.
The Bible doesnt actually say what you claim and I would dispute your interpretation and not the right one and not one demonstarted even in my life.
But the Corinthian verses do nothing of the sort. That at present we see in part was written by Paul who was perfoming miracles. So then how could he say we unless he was only speaking to the other apostles? In the context of the letter commending the church at least on some spiritual gifts that cant be the case.
Jesus sent out the apostles to perform signs and wonders and teach disciples to obey all He commanded, healing was what He commanded.
The dangers are that on the one hand Satan can also perform signs and wonders, and on the other even he cant perform them for people who simply dont believe.
The Bible doesnt actually say what you claim and I would dispute your interpretation and not the right one and not one demonstarted even in my life.
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That really doesn't fit the context and is unlikely to be the case.
It matters not that it doesn't say "come again."rrowell said:
Mat 1:20 But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. (ESV)
Isn't "that" in reference to Jesus?
Luk 20:18 Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him." (ESV)
A clear reference to Jesus, no different than "that which is perfect."
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (ESV)
Used of people in general, which supports the notion that it can be used of Jesus. I know that I have come across a similar reference to the Holy Spirit but that was a quick search and should suffice.
So you're saying, despite the enormous divisions in the Church and differences in interpretations, we, the Church, know "completely" and the Apostles, some of whom wrote those very letters and epistles, only knew "in part"?rrowell said:
John Zain
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If the gifts have ceased ...
then a Scripture like this one has no relevance for the believer
(other than the believer in the first century or so):
Matthew 7:
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;
but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name?
and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
If there are no more working of miracles, who are these poor folks Jesus is referring to.
Is the Word of God only relevant to the first century or is it everlasting?
Why would Jesus warn about the "gifts" being useless without "fruit" if there are
no more gifts? Is it fair that only the first century "fake" saints miss Christ "in that day"?
Another example ...
Matthew 24:
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs
and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Unless one is a preterist and believes this prophecy was fulfilled in the first century (70AD),
you would have to conclude that before His Second Coming there will be false christs that will exhibit great miracles. How is it possible for the elect to be even close to being fooled by them? If you do not believe in miracles, signs, wonders its not possible to be fooled when you see them occur, they would have to be obviously from the devil since God stopped doing them in the first century. Simply put, there has to be "real" prophets and "real" miracles occurring to be fooled by "false" prophets and "lying" wonders. No one counterfeits a $3 dollar bill, they only counterfeit a real bill. Similarly, in order for the devil to fool anyone, there must be a real thing. If there are no real miracles, prophets, etc. there cannot be false ones in existence.
R
rrowell
Guest
You cannot dispute these verses, I did not write them, the things spoken of here went away when the Bible was complete, remember when Jesus spoke ANYTHING, the Bible had not yet been written :
Ephesians 4:11-16 (KJV)
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Paul explains here in verse 13 that these powers were given "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and knowledge of the son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of fulness of Christ." this is the New Testament he is referring to, to deny that is to say the Bible is :
- Unable to bring us to the full "unity of faith".
- Unable to give us "knowledge of the son of God".
- Dose not contain what is required to make a "perfect man".
- Cannot bring us to the "fulness of Christ".
To deny this is to say the Bible is not perfect yet the bible clearly says again:
2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJV
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
"That which is perfect is come" is the Bible, Not Jesus, he had already come to deliver the perfect revaluation of Gods Will, and he will come again!
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John Zain
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rr ...
You're doin' a wonderful job of jumping through hoops and doin' backflips,
but thou aren't gettin' any applause from me. 'Cause it's all nonsense.
I'ze a-lookin' for believers, not unbelievers.
Did you read my testimony? http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=43155
Have a great day!
R
rrowell
Guest
You really make no sense, you start a thread that says "I've had second thoughts about the gospel" then say your looking for believers... ???
Remember when you said in one of your posts "am I losing my mind?" I though you were joking?
If you have been to all those places, and they don't have Bibles, you should do what you can to get them Bibles...
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You are begging the question. Of course no one can dispute those verses but one can certainly dispute what you think they mean. Show us where the unity in the faith is.
R
rrowell
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1 Corinthians 1:10 (KJV)
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.