I am an atheist

[coelacanth]

It seems there are many objections to atheism that are raised by people, that have not been entirely answered in this forum. I meant to start this thread in order to promote understanding. Many people think that without God, atheists have no source of morality, that life is meaningless, etc. These are but two examples of total misconceptions that I wish to address, if only I were asked. Please, if you have objections to my worldview, just ask, and I will answer honestly. I can offer my own views, but atheism is without any doctrines, so my views are my own.

 

[azlan88]

I have a couple questions about atheism. How has atheism given people hope, joy and strength to persevere despite persecution like Christianity has? Christians have called on Jesus to save them from their Soviet overlords, but can I call on your atheist philosophers to rescue me from my faith?

 

[Carol Lowery]

Hey Coela,

I hope in Christ all is well. Thought I'd give a little peek-a-boo on you to see how you're doing. We have some awesome brethern here, and I hope you're finding answers to your questions among us. I know it kind of puts you in a pickle at times trying to express yourself, and I'm sure some of us get in a pickle too in finding the God given words to minister to you, [instead of using our own] and at the same time answer your questions. But I just wanted to let you know....we care...we love in Christ....and in the name of Jesus we pray. I'm praying for you Coela, and I hope in Christ there's no offense between us in me doing this.

I'm not saying you're a bad person, I believe you're a good person, but my concern is that there is alot of good people going to hell, because they failed to choose who they serve. As the saying goes: [When you choose not to choose, then you've been chosen.] There's a positive and negative in all things, and for me, [outside the Bible/and my relationship with HIM] it's [in your face] proof of God's existence.

And I really pray that you don't see God as Dirty Harry with his 44 magnum pointing it at you saying: This is the most powerful handgun in the world and it will blow your head clean off your shoulders with one shot....so do you feel lucky? Well....Do ya punk?

Anyway....let me get off the soap box, and say you're upon my heart in prayer, and it's good to see you still here. GBU Coela

 

[Gabe]

It seems there are many objections to atheism that are raised by people, that have not been entirely answered in this forum. I meant to start this thread in order to promote understanding. Many people think that without God, atheists have no source of morality, that life is meaningless, etc. These are but two examples of total misconceptions that I wish to address, if only I were asked. Please, if you have objections to my worldview, just ask, and I will answer honestly. I can offer my own views, but atheism is without any doctrines, so my views are my own.

To me, atheism is simply another world-view. I probably have as many Atheist friends as I do Christian, and I love them all. I think the misconceptions (in part) start from individual atheists. As with all types of “fundamentalistsâ€Â, they are the loudest. These anti-theist atheists (not actually fundamental atheists, but you get the idea) give the impression that atheists in general are aggressive towards theists, when this is not the case. Sanitarium (another atheist member) has previously tried to make the distinction between these anti-theist atheists & atheists, but I fear her efforts fell on deaf ears. It would be great if other atheists felt compelled to address this important issue which affects so many individuals. I suppose this could fall within the scope of your OP?

 

[coelacanth]

I have a couple questions about atheism. How has atheism given people hope, joy and strength to persevere despite persecution like Christianity has? Christians have called on Jesus to save them from their Soviet overlords, but can I call on your atheist philosophers to rescue me from my faith?

If you would like to talk about persecution, perhaps you should realize that today in the U.S., typical voters will admit that they will not elect an otherwise qualified candidate who admits they are an atheist. Perhaps we should look at George Bush (Not W.) and his claim that atheists should not be considered citizens because this is “One Nation Under God� I wonder where you live that persecution is such an issue for Christianity, because Christianity is the norm where I live.

Or, perhaps instead we should look at the book “Society without God†by Phil Zuckerman. He notes statistics that irreligious societies such as Denmark and Sweden have the lowest rates of violent crime in the world, the best elder care, the best child care, wealth is shared, education is highly valued, etc. I presume these are all things you hold in high regard, and that predominantly Christian countries struggle with. While I recognize that correlation does not imply causality, there are very strong implications here.

Let’s look at some definitions, shall we?
Hope: the feeling that what is wanted can be had or that events will turn out for the best
Joy: the emotion of great delight or happiness caused by something exceptionally good or satisfying; keen pleasure; elation:

“Emotion†and “Feelingâ€Â… Notice that neither of these says anything about truth. When it comes to a choice, I would prefer truth over delusional bliss. I find hope and joy in plenty of things, but I do not require promises of eternal bliss to entice me into that state.

And if the time ever required, can I call on your atheist philosopher's to save me from my faith.

My atheist philosopher’s what? Pet donkey? Favorite color? Propensity to engage in doubt?
All kidding aside, this question requires clarification: are you referring to any philosopher who is not a theist? What do you mean by “save me from my faith� Are you talking about Nietzsche? Who? As I said in the OP, there are no doctrines of atheism. However, there are very inspirational philosophers who were not theists, I simply do not understand what you intend with your question…

Also, please explain the historical context of the "Soviet overlords" you refer to. Stalin? If so, what relevance does that have?

 

[coelacanth]

Hey Coela,

I hope in Christ all is well. Thought I'd give a little peek-a-boo on you to see how you're doing. We have some awesome brethern here, and I hope you're finding answers to your questions among us. I know it kind of puts you in a pickle at times trying to express yourself, and I'm sure some of us get in a pickle too in finding the God given words to minister to you, [instead of using our own] and at the same time answer your questions. But I just wanted to let you know....we care...we love in Christ....and in the name of Jesus we pray. I'm praying for you Coela, and I hope in Christ there's no offense between us in me doing this.

I'm not saying you're a bad person, I believe you're a good person, but my concern is that there is alot of good people going to hell, because they failed to choose who they serve. As the saying goes: [When you choose not to choose, then you've been chosen.] There's a positive and negative in all things, and for me, [outside the Bible/and my relationship with HIM] it's [in your face] proof of God's existence.

And I really pray that you don't see God as Dirty Harry with his 44 magnum pointing it at you saying: This is the most powerful handgun in the world and it will blow your head clean off your shoulders with one shot....so do you feel lucky? Well....Do ya punk?

Anyway....let me get off the soap box, and say you're upon my heart in prayer, and it's good to see you still here. GBU Coela

Carol, as always, you seem to be a model of a caring person. I appreciate your prayers, I simply am not a person who believes that they are worthwhile. No insult intended, I am simply being honest. You should always continue to do what you believe helps people, but I hope that you are a person who questions things.

 

[coelacanth]

It seems there are many objections to atheism that are raised by people, that have not been entirely answered in this forum. I meant to start this thread in order to promote understanding. Many people think that without God, atheists have no source of morality, that life is meaningless, etc. These are but two examples of total misconceptions that I wish to address, if only I were asked. Please, if you have objections to my worldview, just ask, and I will answer honestly. I can offer my own views, but atheism is without any doctrines, so my views are my own.

To me, atheism is simply another world-view. I probably have as many Atheist friends as I do Christian, and I love them all. I think the misconceptions (in part) start from individual atheists. As with all types of “fundamentalistsâ€Â, they are the loudest. These anti-theist atheists (not actually fundamental atheists, but you get the idea) give the impression that atheists in general are aggressive towards theists, when this is not the case. Sanitarium (another atheist member) has previously tried to make the distinction between these anti-theist atheists & atheists, but I fear her efforts fell on deaf ears. It would be great if other atheists felt compelled to address this important issue which affects so many individuals. I suppose this could fall within the scope of your OP?

Very good point, Gabe. I do not consider myself to be of the "evangelical atheist" type. I am just a person who enjoys a good debate. I once heard a quote that went something like this: "If you're not smart, surround yourself with smart people. If you are smart, surround yourself with smart people who disagree with you". I'm not sure where to attribute the quote, but it didn't come from myself. I do not wish to sound overconfident in my intellectual capabilities; I know I have less than infinite knowledge and capacity. However, I agree with the statement, and it sums up my main purpose for posting on this forum, in addition to membership in forums where I am the average, middle-of-the-pack. I really do just want just one person to square off with me from time to time. I think it is healthy to have one's worldview challenged, and I take it all in stride and genuinely consider the thoughts put forth by an adversary. Most atheists I know are afraid to admit it, and are hiding amongst the ranks of Christians for fear of persecution. If I am your (someone other than Gabe) first exposure to outspoken atheism, please do not take my views as the sum-total of what all atheists think. I can only speak for myself.

 

[coelacanth]

It seems there are many objections to atheism that are raised by people, that have not been entirely answered in this forum. I meant to start this thread in order to promote understanding. Many people think that without God, atheists have no source of morality, that life is meaningless, etc. These are but two examples of total misconceptions that I wish to address, if only I were asked. Please, if you have objections to my worldview, just ask, and I will answer honestly. I can offer my own views, but atheism is without any doctrines, so my views are my own.

To me, atheism is simply another world-view. I probably have as many Atheist friends as I do Christian, and I love them all. I think the misconceptions (in part) start from individual atheists. As with all types of “fundamentalistsâ€Â, they are the loudest. These anti-theist atheists (not actually fundamental atheists, but you get the idea) give the impression that atheists in general are aggressive towards theists, when this is not the case. Sanitarium (another atheist member) has previously tried to make the distinction between these anti-theist atheists & atheists, but I fear her efforts fell on deaf ears. It would be great if other atheists felt compelled to address this important issue which affects so many individuals. I suppose this could fall within the scope of your OP?

To be more specific, anti-theists are people you as Christians are more likely to hear from. Your typical atheist is far less likely to challenge you. If you are a Christian reading this, most Christians do not go out of their way to disparage other faiths directly any more than the average atheist disparages a faith that they do not hold. When an atheist who is also an anti-theist confronts you, it would be unwise to assume that all atheists are confrontational in the same way, or even that they hold the same beliefs.

 

[Carol Lowery]

Carol, as always, you seem to be a model of a caring person. I appreciate your prayers, I simply am not a person who believes that they are worthwhile. No insult intended, I am simply being honest. You should always continue to do what you believe helps people, but I hope that you are a person who questions things.

That's OK sweetie, you're entitled to believe they're not worthwhile, but I believe you're worthwhile of me saying them. I respect honesty.....this is our common ground. I question many, many, many things....having a husband with an IQ of 190 our conversations are competitive knowledge, and at times my primary focus is to retain the wisdom to speak it lovingly.....lots of practice with my hubby.

And lots of practice with my daddy who had been a hardcore devout atheist for 67 years up until 1998. A near death out of body experience turned him to Jesus, [clinicly dead 7 minutes] he remembered every detail coming to the Light, and hearing the most beautiful singing, and feeling the love....he came to me and would only discuss it with me cause I was a believer. I never saw my daddy cry...very strong hard working man. But when my daddy told me of his experience, he literally was sobbing from the things God had shown him. And his biggest question was...Why? how could HE love me so much to show me what I saw...I deserve nothing....HE could have just let me go to hell. He explained it as more vivid/real there than our mortal life, and he didn't want to come back, but he was told it wasn't his time.

My daddy died last Easter Day.....

 

[sheshisown]

coelacanth~

Hello and welcome to CFnet! I do not normally like to debate, however that would depend upon your view of debate. :yes

Also, normally, I do not tend to partake of these foundational faith discussions. The reason is because I believe what the bible says about humanity before we come to faith. ( I include myself, as a one time unbeliever ) That no unbeliever may understand the truths in the bible unless they are "spiritually" enlightened. Which requires a work of God in the heart; and only after the choice has been made to understand the Bible as it is revealed by God, not by humanity. Therefore, Christians can share their faith and insights with you, however, as a professed atheist, you may never understand any of them. So the whole exercise could be useless. :nod

However, I also believe the bible when it says, that no one may come to God unless they are first drawn by God.

If you are merely looking to go rounds with others about issues you have knowledge about to excerise your intellect, I wonder why you would choose Christians as sound thinkers to debate with, and why you would desire to discuss atheism if ( as you say, it is a logical yet subjective choice as your ideology ). How can people who have turned away from your worldview as "error" possibly offer you worthy opponents? I am honestly interested in your answers, I am not goading you at all.

Also, on the premise~ from my end~ that you may be drawn by God here to find Him... let me ask you about the evidence from the book “Society without God†by Phil Zuckerman. First, much like yourself, I cannot appreciate debate that is unfair, ie.

I can offer my own views, but atheism is without any doctrines, so my views are my own.

That is fair, and calls for fairness.

If you desire fairness, then you need to play by the rules you set. Phil Zuckerman's book is hardly a realistic offering to compare worldviews. He never once separates the differing religions of the world into separate views. He treats Muslims and Christians and Jews as having the same worldview. His book divides statisics as he sees fit, ie. "using Scandinavian countries as societies without God." I am certain many Christains and Muslims live there. He also fails to even begin to look at prior treatises that have done excellent work in refuting religious societies. As an intellectual, you can find much weighter works to debate with, that are not so filled with error.

Also, we can all quote statistics till we are blue in the face and talk theoretically about societies ills, we will be bored in no time. So what? We have all heard it before. BLAH BLAH BLAH...

Since your beginning conclusion is that society is better off without God, why don't we let our discussion go to the truly subjective and more interesting level immediately? How is your life better (using whatever premises you want ) without God? :eyebrow I would be ready to talk along those lines with you. :nod

Awaiting your reply... bonnie

 

[Gabe]

To be more specific, anti-theists are people you as Christians are more likely to hear from. Your typical atheist is far less likely to challenge you. If you are a Christian reading this, most Christians do not go out of their way to disparage other faiths directly any more than the average atheist disparages a faith that they do not hold. When an atheist who is also an anti-theist confronts you, it would be unwise to assume that all atheists are confrontational in the same way, or even that they hold the same beliefs.

This is something I can say Amen to. Most atheists (from experience) have no interest in debating someone's belief at all, but the picture one gets on the net is of the complete opposite. Its a shame that negative stereotypes are so hard to break.

 

[Sanitarium]

I think the misconceptions (in part) start from individual atheists. As with all types of “fundamentalistsâ€Â, they are the loudest. These anti-theist atheists (not actually fundamental atheists, but you get the idea) give the impression that atheists in general are aggressive towards theists, when this is not the case. Sanitarium (another atheist member) has previously tried to make the distinction between these anti-theist atheists & atheists, but I fear her efforts fell on deaf ears.

THIS ^

To be more specific, anti-theists are people you as Christians are more likely to hear from. Your typical atheist is far less likely to challenge you. If you are a Christian reading this, most Christians do not go out of their way to disparage other faiths directly any more than the average atheist disparages a faith that they do not hold. When an atheist who is also an anti-theist confronts you, it would be unwise to assume that all atheists are confrontational in the same way, or even that they hold the same beliefs.

and THIS ^

Although I am a little different - I am not an anti-theist, but I do spend a great deal of my time debating Islam with Muslims. So I guess I am an anti-Islamist or anti-Allahist (it's a word!)

 

[Gabe]

Although I am a little different - I am not an anti-theist, but I do spend a great deal of my time debating Islam with Muslims.

And very good at it you are, too. In fact you put some of us ex-Muslims to shame.

*discreetly PM's Vic with a request to ban Sani, for making Gabriel look bad*

 

[Sanitarium]

And very good at it you are, too. In fact you put some of us ex-Muslims to shame.

*discreetly PM's Vic with a request to ban Sani, for making Gabriel look bad*

uh oh.....
*wonders how it can be discreetly done if you have just announced it*

*PM's Vic to ask him to ignore Gabe's latest PM*

 

[Gabe]

*wonders how it can be discreetly done if you have just announced it*

How about now?

*discreetly PM's Vic with a second request to ban Sani, for making Gabriel look bad*

 

[Sanitarium]

How about now?

*discreetly PM's Vic with a second request to ban Sani, for making Gabriel look bad*

I think the admin should install the soliloquy tags for situations such as this!

@coelacanth: Sorry for derailing your thread a bit....it was all Gabe's fault! *points* :p

 

[Gabe]

Yes, my apologies to coelacanth. I know this is a serious issue which deserves to be discussed as such.

 

[VaultZero4Me]

I have a couple questions about atheism. How has atheism given people hope, joy and strength to persevere despite persecution like Christianity has?

As an atheist, I see the hope, joy, and strength to persevere despite persecution originating from the human spirit.

Christians have called on Jesus to save them from their Soviet overlords, but can I call on your atheist philosophers to rescue me from my faith?

In short no.

I rely on my strength and the help of others when in need.

I do see some value in the hope people get from religion, but also see it as a double-edged sword. There are many who use this as a way to gain wealth from the despair of those seeking hope.

 

[turnorburn]

Atheists are no different than any unbeliever, they put a name on it as if
it were the superior stance to take.

I have a surprise for you as if you haven't heard it before, God chooses
you, you don't choose God.

John 6:44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me
draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

If I were you I'd be on my knees begging his forgiveness unless you want
to maintain your a god unto yourself.

I'm brash, Jesus is as gentle as a summer breeze, you need his touch.


turnorburn

:amen

 

[coelacanth]

Carol, as always, you seem to be a model of a caring person. I appreciate your prayers, I simply am not a person who believes that they are worthwhile. No insult intended, I am simply being honest. You should always continue to do what you believe helps people, but I hope that you are a person who questions things.

That's OK sweetie, you're entitled to believe they're not worthwhile, but I believe you're worthwhile of me saying them. I respect honesty.....this is our common ground. I question many, many, many things....having a husband with an IQ of 190 our conversations are competitive knowledge, and at times my primary focus is to retain the wisdom to speak it lovingly.....lots of practice with my hubby.

And lots of practice with my daddy who had been a hardcore devout atheist for 67 years up until 1998. A near death out of body experience turned him to Jesus, [clinicly dead 7 minutes] he remembered every detail coming to the Light, and hearing the most beautiful singing, and feeling the love....he came to me and would only discuss it with me cause I was a believer. I never saw my daddy cry...very strong hard working man. But when my daddy told me of his experience, he literally was sobbing from the things God had shown him. And his biggest question was...Why? how could HE love me so much to show me what I saw...I deserve nothing....HE could have just let me go to hell. He explained it as more vivid/real there than our mortal life, and he didn't want to come back, but he was told it wasn't his time.

My daddy died last Easter Day.....

I'm very sorry to hear that, it sounds like you two had a wonderful, loving relationship.