I am starting to REALLY like the Catholics (OC plz read)

[Soma-Sight]

I have been watching quite a bit of EWTN lately and the Franciscan (I think that is spelled right) monks that come on late at night....

I like the fact that there preaching style is more about trying to understand different points of view and SHARING the Gospel message rather than FORCING it down peoples throats....

Plus the Orthodox and Catholic systems are the oldest Churches and there have been many Holy men, Saints and mystics like Augustine and the like which are very inspirational for me personally!

Last night the monk was explaining how Assisi used to see Christ in ALL THINGS. His blood on the roses, his tears in the rain, his cross in the trees, etc.... That is awesome and I am surprised that I have never heard that kind of preaching before and it made my heart glad!

It sure beats the brow beating protestant hellfire messages thats for sure!

 

[Lyric's Dad]

I have been watching quite a bit of EWTN lately and the Franciscan (I think that is spelled right) monks that come on late at night....

I like the fact that there preaching style is more about trying to understand different points of view and SHARING the Gospel message rather than FORCING it down peoples throats....

Plus the Orthodox and Catholic systems are the oldest Churches and there have been many Holy men, Saints and mystics like Augustine and the like which are very inspirational for me personally!

Last night the monk was explaining how Assisi used to see Christ in ALL THINGS. His blood on the roses, his tears in the rain, his cross in the trees, etc.... That is awesome and I am surprised that I have never heard that kind of preaching before and it made my heart glad!

It sure beats the brow beating protestant hellfire messages thats for sure!

Yeah, we should never teach on hell, it is just not politically correct enough.

We teach the WHOLE counsel of God and if people don't like it, they can take it from there.

Since you like the RCC so much why don't you join up. It has to be better then where you are right now.

 

[Relic]

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Soma-Sight wrote:It sure beats the brow beating protestant hellfire messages thats for sure!

Lyric's Dad wrote:
Yeah, we should never teach on hell, it is just not politically correct enough.

Relic writes:

Of course Lyric's Dad, we all know you are using a bit of sarcasm there. :P

Oh my goodness! Soma-sight, You search everywhere but for JESUS!
If we don't include teaching about hell what do you expect the we are being saved from? Sin? Of course, well then, if we aren't saved from our sins, that is, to repent from them, to turn away from them and to go and sin no more, where do you think that leads to?
Let's see, how much did Jesus teach about hell? Jesus knew full well about the torments of hell. Hell is the place of the unrepentant sinner. It is torment. The torment is a consequences of sin. All sin leads to torment, then death. If we don't humble ourselves, and repent from it. We have torment from it. If we don't accept Jesus to save us from our sins, then what do you think he was teaching when he spoke about hell and the place of torment? He taught about it it plenty! We are to teach the FULL Gospel, not part of it! The Catholics ignore too much! I left the catholic church a long time ago because how screwed up their teachings are.


Here's an excerpt from an article on masterbuilder.org:

"...However, Jesus Christ Himself believed in Hell--He taught on it more often and more extensively than any other person in the Bible--so the follower of Christ has a tough decision to make: (a) either Jesus was deluded and subject to all the misguided popular opinions of His day (in which case, why be a Christian at all?), or (b) there is in fact such a place as hell, and Jesus, being the Son of God, knew all about it.

The latter conclusion would seem to make sense. If He knew of the place, if He had seen it, and even been party to its design, then He would know of its horrors better than anyone else, and be more anxious to warn people to avoid it at any cost. "


and in another place within that article:


"Did you kow .. that hell is referred to over three hundred times in the New Testament? There are 11 references to Hades, the place where the rich man went immediately after his death; 12 mentions of Gehenna, the final abode of the lost; and one reference to Tartarus, the pit where the angels who left their place in heaven are kept. The remainder refer to hell by such descriptive names as "everlasting destruction," "outer darkness," "flaming fire," and "Lake of Fire." "


Read the whole article on masterbuilder.org entitled:
Hell: What Jesus Taught
by Kim Harrington.



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[bibleberean]

I am an ex-Catholic and I heard a lot about hell as a child in Catholic school.

I said this prayer every Friday from first to eighth grade at the Catholic school I attended.

Act of Contrition

O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee, and I detest all my sins, known and unknown, not only because I dread the loss of heaven and dread the pains of hell, and not only because Thou art my Creator, my Redeemer and my Sanctifier, but most of all because my sins have offended Thee, my God, Who art all good in Thyself and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to confess my sins, to do penance and to amend my life. Amen.

Catholics believe in hell and the fires of it.

If you are thinking of becoming a RC because you don't like the doctrine of hell you are headed in the wrong direction.

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
SECOND EDITION

IV. HELL

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

Soma bounces from one thing to another like a rubber ball... :roll:

 

[Relic]

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ummmm, if I may ask you to mention, BB...


The part the Catholics believe about this place called purgatory.... :roll:

The Catholics brow-beat you with threats about purgatory and paying pennance for your sins in purgatory. How about telling Soma-Sight how the Catholics put their own twist to how to get into heaven if you die without having confessed all of your sins before you flew the earthly coup. :P

Try and match that up with the teachings in the bible.
I'm sure the Catholics came up with something. It's been so long, I forgot what scripture they use to justify their teaching on this purgatory place.

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[Relic]

I like the fact that there preaching style is more about trying to understand different points of view and SHARING the Gospel message rather than FORCING it down peoples throats....

You know what they FORCE down people throats?

The tithe envelopes! They make you become a member of the church and the first thing you get.... is a pack of tithing envelopes. to bring to church every sunday. They are neat and tidy in that respect. It's so they can keep track of what their parishioners give to the church.

And another thing they FORCE down your throat. Is if you are divorced and you want the church to marry you. You have to get an annulment through the church before they will marry you again.

Another thing they FORCE down your throat. all of their man made doctrines!


Did I read somewhere in this forum that the Catholics doctrines are in such a huge volume that it is larger than the bible itself? :o :


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[Orthodox Christian]

I like the fact that there preaching style is more about trying to understand different points of view and SHARING the Gospel message rather than FORCING it down peoples throats....

I totally agree. I think it is good to be bold about one's faith, but I think that the judgemental and overbearing presentation adopted by so many Evangelicals today alienates more than it attracts.

Not all- I note with fondness and warm rememberance many deeds of great kindness and love done among my Evangelical friends years ago, and I recall the effect that this had on the unchurched...which was joy.

"Let your light so shine before men that might see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven..."

The Kingdom grows by attraction. Families and households grow in this manner. I have two teenagers, and their friends like to hang out at our place. Not because we have the cool house or the cool stuff, which we don't- but because we love each other.

This is the way the Household of God grows, too.

Oh, you can get people to sign pledge cards if you scare them with hell and then give them the easy out (just say a prayer and join us, and avoid inifinite jail time). You can also build membership with slick preaching gifts and/or flashy media presentations. But neither of these build the household.

And both alienate those who are not compelled by either, those who are looking for the genuine article.

Last night the monk was explaining how Assisi used to see Christ in ALL THINGS. His blood on the roses, his tears in the rain, his cross in the trees, etc.... That is awesome and I am surprised that I have never heard that kind of preaching before and it made my heart glad!

I've heard this saying attributed to St Francis:
"Preach the gospel at all times, and if necessary, use words." or some variant thereof.
Yes, Soma, it was the holy mysticism and wisdom of saints like Francis, Ephraim of Syria, Gregory Palamas....and many others that awoke in me a hunger for something deeper than what I had experienced as an Evangelical. In fairness, the good of what I experienced as an Evangelical made me hungry and thirsty for more of God and His Ways.

In a final, brief note, I acknowledge that we Orthodox and the Catholics do believe in a literal hell. We don't shy from speaking about it, either. There is a judgement at the end of days, and we shall all face this. Maturing Christians must embrace the hard sayings of Christ- for themselves- not for everyone else. I read Christ's sayings, some of them very challenging and difficult, and I apply them to me. Many Evangelicals seem to believe that they have passed from judgement, and are now passing along the judgement.

They seem more interested in compulsion than covenant, more inclined toward interpretation than sharing.

Anyway, thank you for seeing us as brothers. I know just what you mean when you say that these holy men and women of the ancient faith are an inspiration to you- they are dear to my heart...for though every believer is a 'saint,' there are some Saints whose lives and words inspire the Spirit within us to encouragement, growth, and faith.

James

 

[cj]

- Soma-Sight - I like the fact that there preaching style is more about trying to understand different points of view and SHARING the Gospel message rather than FORCING it down peoples throats....
- Orthodox Christian - I totally agree. I think it is good to be bold about one's faith, but I think that the judgemental and overbearing presentation adopted by so many Evangelicals today alienates more than it attracts.

"Alienates more than attracts",...... this coming from one who would claim to present the killing work of the cross to others.



And herein we find the underpining foundation for the move towards the one-religion system, the awaited high-card play of God's adversary......... "Can't we all just get along?"


Satan and his ways had nothing in Jesus, and so it must be in each believer.

".... be bold about one's faith,"...... faith is of God, and is even God, there is no ownership of this Faith that one can be bold with in an induvidual manner, outside of God Himself.


"One's faith"....... there is only one faith, this is Christ. And Christ is one.


The reality of this faith is simly oneness, but you present faith to us in a manner that would subtly suggest that it is perfectly acceptable to be in divided.


This is the sickness of the Roman MYSTERY, Babylon The Great, The MOTHER Of The HARLOTS And The ABOMINATIONS Of The EARTH.

Not all- I note with fondness and warm rememberance many deeds of great kindness and love done among my Evangelical friends years ago, and I recall the effect that this had on the unchurched...which was joy.

Funny isn't it,..... God gives each man breath to live and receive Him as eternal life, but the majority pay no heed to this, they have no appreciation for this great mercy and grace of the Creator.

But OC would have us believe that human kindness and human love shown towards an unbeliever will do the job.

This is the lie of the enemy, the lie perpetuated by the apostate institutions such as the Orthodox and Roman.

Saints, human kindness and love both have their place, but salvation is through the hearing of faith. This requires the speaking of faith.

Many believers show human kindness and love, not out of faith but out of form. And God hates this.

Yet, the apostate institution market this anti-Christ doctrine as the truth.

Don't buy it.

"Let your light so shine before men that might see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven..."

Scripture tells us that when light comes darkness flees. Scripture also tells us that God is light, and that this light can be a very painful thing to receive.

Who here has not suffered even as the light of God has been rising in their lives?

Sure the suffering brings in God's grace, but there is still suffering as the transformation takes place.

Contrary to how I believe OC is presenting the above scripture, "your good works" is not just an outward expression, but must first be an inward reality.

1 Peter  2 : 12, "Having your manner of life excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the matter concerning which they speak against you as evildoers they may, by your good works, as they see them with their own eyes, glorify God in the day of His visitation."

"Good works" is not just being kind and loving, but first is a holy manner of life (1:15) and the good manner of life in Christ (3:16), a life not only for God but filled and saturated with God. This manner of life is versus the vain manner of life of the unbelievers (1:18).

Paul tells us this in Ephesians 4 : 17 - 24,...

"This therefore I say and testify in the Lord, that you no longer walk as the Gentiles also walk in the vanity of their mind, being darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance which is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; Who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lasciviousness to work all uncleanness in greediness.

But you did not so learn Christ, if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him as the reality is in Jesus, that you put off, as regards your former manner of life, the old man, which is being corrupted according to the lusts of the deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind and put on the new man, which was created according to God in righteousness and holiness of the reality."

True kindness and love issue out of a righteous and holy reality, which is simply God, not humanity.


The kingdom of God is not "numbers" but is just God Himself lived out through vessels. Thus the real growth of the kingdom is found in those who are open to the killing work of the cross so that the resurrection life of Christ may flow into our entire being, saturating and constituting our being with God Himself, transforming and conforming each of our beings with the very life and nature of God so that God might have His increase in and through His many sons.

As God grows in men so too does the kingdom grow.

Read again what Paul says in the above verses from his epistle to the Ephesians...... "as the reality is in Jesus, that..... you..... put off, as regards your former manner of life, the old man, which is being corrupted according to the lusts of the deceit, and that.... you.... be renewed in the spirit of your mind and put on the new man, which was created according to God in righteousness and holiness of the reality."

Yes, Soma, it was the holy mysticism and wisdom of saints like Francis, Ephraim of Syria, Gregory Palamas....and many others that awoke in me a hunger for something deeper than what I had experienced as an Evangelical. In fairness, the good of what I experienced as an Evangelical made me hungry and thirsty for more of God and His Ways.

I thank God that my thirst for the truth was created by His Spirit in me, and not by my fallen thoughts of the accomplishments of other sinners like me.



Saints, I know my words are hard, but the time is short. The Lord has tarried for almost two thousand years; how much longer do we make Him wait?

Satan has been judged, but God has placed the execution of this judgement in the hands of those who would believe. But Satan has corrupted the way so deeply that believers have struggled to come into the truth. And when I read things such as OC writes, my heart is filled with sorrow, I mourn with the Lord.

When will we turn from such wickedness, turn from the apostate doctrines that have pervaded the gatherings of believers for so long. When will we be bold in Christ and take a stand against the counterfeit of the enemy of God, and contend to the uttermost for the saints, no matter what the cost may be, no matter how foolish we may look while doing so.

Don't allow Satan to come to these boards and spread his lie.

Speak the truth, and pray for those believers such as OC, who have been drawn into the enemy's lie. For we need OC as much as we need all the other believers.

But saints, do this in the Lord, and only in the Lord.


In love,
cj

 

[bibleberean]

Jesus did not send believers into the world to teach the acceptance of different points of view.

We are not to "entice people into the kingdom" using the wisdom of the world.

1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Doing good deeds is not preaching the gospel. Francis of Assisi was wrong.

1 Corinthians 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

1 Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

It takes preaching to save people. Preaching the message of the cross is what pleases God.

"it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."

 

[bibleberean]

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ummmm, if I may ask you to mention, BB...


The part the Catholics believe about this place called purgatory.... :roll:

The Catholics brow-beat you with threats about purgatory and paying pennance for your sins in purgatory. How about telling Soma-Sight how the Catholics put their own twist to how to get into heaven if you die without having confessed all of your sins before you flew the earthly coup. :P

Try and match that up with the teachings in the bible.
I'm sure the Catholics came up with something. It's been so long, I forgot what scripture they use to justify their teaching on this purgatory place.

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The RCC invented purgatory as a means of getting into the pocket books of it's members.

"If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema." (ibid., p. 46 -- Sixth Session, Chapter XVI, Canon 30)

Council Of Trent

When Jesus died on the cross, He said "It is finished"! John 19:30.

Jesus completed the work of redemption at the cross.

Jesus said this praying to the Father in the gospel of John 17:4


John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

In Hebrews Jesus states:

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Hebrews 10:14

Those who believe in the finished work of Christ are "made perfect" forever.

Romans 8:1 says, "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

The RCC has made up some strange doctrines.

Mary can do what Rome claims Christ failed to do on the cross.

The Sabbatine Privilege

"Sacratissimo uti culmine" of John XXII, 3 March, 1322.

In this Bull the pope is made to declare that the Mother of God appeared to him, and most urgently recommended to him the Carmelite Order and its confratres and consorores.

The Blessed Virgin asked that John, as Christ's representative on earth, should ratify the indulgences which He had already granted in heaven (a plenary indulgence for the members of the Carmelite Order and a partial indulgence, remitting the third part of the temporal punishment due to their sins, for the members of the confraternity); she herself would graciously descend on the Saturday ( after their death and liberate and conduct to heaven all who were in purgatory."

Source Catholic Encyclopedia

http://www.catholicity.com/encyclopedia ... ilege.html

You would be hard pressed to justify this "papal bull" from scripture. :roll:

And we must not forget the magical "Brown Scapulor"

"Whosoever dies clothed in this (scapular) shall not suffer eternal fire"

The Blessed Virgin Mary's PROMISE, made July 16, 1251, to St. Simon Stock."

 

[Orthodox Christian]

- Soma-Sight - I like the fact that there preaching style is more about trying to understand different points of view and SHARING the Gospel message rather than FORCING it down peoples throats....
- Orthodox Christian - I totally agree. I think it is good to be bold about one's faith, but I think that the judgemental and overbearing presentation adopted by so many Evangelicals today alienates more than it attracts.

"Alienates more than attracts",...... this coming from one who would claim to present the killing work of the cross to others

I don't present the 'killing work of the cross.' I present Christ Crucified AND resurrected. I am interested in reaching out to those who are seeking.

And herein we find the underpining foundation for the move towards the one-religion system, the awaited high-card play of God's adversary......... "Can't we all just get along?"

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of the most high.

We have peace with those that are sons of peace.

".... be bold about one's faith,"......

faith is of God, and is even God, there is no ownership of this Faith that one can be bold with in an induvidual manner, outside of God Himself.

Let's just make it clear that being bold doesn't include being wantonly offensive. Rather, it involves speaking truth in humility without regard for appearing cool, suave, distant, cosmopolitan, or spiritual.

"One's faith"....... there is only one faith, this is Christ. And Christ is one.


The reality of this faith is simly oneness, but you would present faith to us in a manner that would subtly suggest that it is perfectly acceptable to be in divided.

Divisions within the people who call themselves by His Name is completely unacceptable and sorrowful to me. Unification is not accomplished by name-calling.

This is the sickness of the Roman MYSTERY, Babylon The Great, The MOTHER Of The HARLOTS And The ABOMINATIONS Of The EARTH.

Not all- I note with fondness and warm rememberance many deeds of great kindness and love done among my Evangelical friends years ago, and I recall the effect that this had on the unchurched...which was joy.

Funny isn't it,..... God gives each man breath to live and receive Him as eternal life, but the majority pay no heed to this, they have no appreciation for this great mercy and grace of the Creator.

But you would have us believe that human kindness and human love shown towards an unbeliever will do the job.

Just what exactly is "the job" of which you speak?

See how Christ indeed instructed us to feed and give drink to our enemies, and thus cause them to consider. Or consider that Paul stated that a believing wife can win her unbelieving husband without a word. How? With kindness, obedience, and gentleness.

 

[Relic]

Getting back on track here.


What St Francis of Assisi said and the monks that interpreted it....

Is what St Francis of Assisi and the interpretation the monks gave to his words indicative of the whole body of Christians or Catholics? NO!

So my point being Soma-Sight is that Just because one person from a certain denomination says something doesn't mean he, that one person, is speaking for the whole of that particular denomination. One person from hell can say one tid bit truth of what God's word says. Does that make the congregation of hell so attractive then? No.
cj, made an excellent point about how one word or action from a group or individual is not necessarily that as being representative of Christ-like spirit as a "whole". Bits and pieces... We are to separate the wheat from the chaff. And remember, Jesus said to let the tares grow with the wheat until the time of harvest. What does that say to you? And in due time, we are to bundle up the tares in preparation of the burning of them at the time of harvest. What does that mean to you?

St. Francis of Assisi was using his poetic expression....
Does that mean there was truth in it just because he is of the Catholic faith? No! It means he, as an individual, said something and he, as an individual, expressed a truth or a deception of the truth. It has nothing to do with one admiring the style of one denomination or a religious group of people. What would that be basing your decision on, what nonsense is that Soma-Sight? Just because one man says something pretty and artistic in nature and the couple of monks agree in their interpretation of it, you are saying you like the way the Orthodox and Catholic systems are inspirational to you? :o
The Catholic and Orthodox Catholic religion is more than you see on the surface, as is any "religious" "group" of people. But that is another topic that has been dragged through the mud many a time on these boards.
But in dealing with anything that is said by any one person or body of people... this is why we all need to not base our decisions on what the few artistic expression of one or two or three people are saying as being representative of that whole group or denomination of peoples as a "basis" or as a conclusion of how inspirational they are as a group of people or denomination.

We must always determine the spirits from an individual perspective in such cases as to what writing is inspirational, or not. You can't group the whole denomination as being the source of such things.

I don't allow my self to be influenced by the makings of any organized religious "group" of people. They are not my Lord and Savior. They can use poetic expression all they want, but if it is not of truth, then it is bundled up in that pile of tares! I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. And if a church, group, or individual person tells me contrary to what Jesus teaches me, I'll speak out.

Here's the point...

The congregations of people and the denominations they belong to has nothing to do with how each "individual" person is in relationship to God and Christ-like Spirit. If one person in the whole mass of people says something profound, does that mean the whole body of them is in agreement with it? Not if it is of a type of deception. but then there have been whole masses of people falling under the spell of certain "groups" of people from all varieties of denominations, and non-denominational groups. This is why we need to rely on Jesus to teach us to be our shepard in the midst of the wolves in sheeps clothing. We need Jesus to be IN us to overcome. Jesus teaches us to overcome the trickery of the devil. And I see the poetic expression of many "sometimes" being used as a tool of the devil. Learn how to decern the spirit(s).


What St Francis of Assisi said was poetic in nature. Many people can take an object and find something to say about it as they see fit to see Christ in "it". The symbolic meaning of it TO THEM. Even the Rosicrusians are very good at doing that. The Masons, the Catholics, the Protestants. Many "religious" "groups" are very good at using their poetic license in their writings and create ICONS as symbols of what ways their "religion" speaks out to them. It's all artistic expression.
And for that matter, we all have done so in many ways at various times in our lives. The thing is, whether we come to face the fact of it being truth or not, "after" the fact of all that creativity of ours. And the thing that matters then is if we are willing to admit to the real truth behind the writing. Creative writing is "fun". But we must stop and consider this..... and ask our selves....Does having a poetic license really mean that it speaks the truth when we use it? Does our poetic license take us away from the truth or does it speak the truth of the Holy Spirit of Christ Jesus?

We must never forget.... When we take our eyes off of God... that's when we are vulnerable to allowing the corruptions to enters in. Yes, Satan does try us! It is up to us to not allow his trickery to take our eyes off of the truth of what the Holy Word teaches us about the truth of JHVH GOD and His only begotten Son Jesus Christ.

Yes, satan attacked me about the writings of man.... and how much emphasis should I be placing on them? It is the Truth of Jesus we must always keep our focus on. Not the bits and pieces of the imaginings of man. It is not always easy to stay on track, being human, as we are. Without Christ IN us, we lose track and fall. We all fall short, without Christ Spirit in us being Lord and Savior, daily, every moment in time! If we lose sight of Jesus and stray, we must then repent of it and seek after God's own heart. Jesus came to save us from our sins, the sins of the world. We need to take him on daily. It is a daily renewing of the mind and a daily task of putting on the Whole Armor of God. A daily thing we must do, take on Christ. In the Old testament times, King David was an example of frail nature in man, the falling and the rising up to then seek after God. He showed repentance, and God then revealed grace. It takes a man willing to face the error of his ways and repent to come to the truth of God.

We can wallow in our fantasies all we want, but if they are outside of the REAL TRUTH, then where does that leave us? We are then like lost children, are we not?

Did St. Francis of Assisi repent of anything? Was he so perfect in what he wrote? I wonder if he repented after writing some things of nonsense. And were those monks that interpreted his writing so perfect in doing so, in this instance? Are any of us so righteous in our interpretations outside of the guidance of the Holy Spirit? Nope, we are all vanity, without the Holy spirit of Jesus Christ come to save us.


What did St. Francis of Assisi write? What does it have to do with biblical significance? Anyone can take it apart and put it back together again:

Is Jesus's blood in a rose? No. His blood was shed on the cross by the sword of man. Just because a rose is red doesn't mean it is representative of what blood Jesus shed. Does it? The Rosicrusians use the white rose as a symbol in the middle of their cross. Artistic license? Poetic license? You tell me. How far can we go with it until it leads us astray?

Jesus' tears in the rain? Where did that come from, poetic license? But what does it truly mean?
I see rain as being condensation that falls from the sky and feeds the plants in this earth. Water... it rises up and falls back to the earth, The body of water, a home to the creatures in lakes and the sea. Rain is symbolic of the flood. And now... St. Francis sees another angle and says it is symbolic of the tears of Jesus? The strange thing is.... where's the completed thought of this catch phrase he wrote? I can debate it and say, I don't see Jesus's tears in the rain.... I see the tears coming from the heart of men and from the heart of God. Tears of joy and tears of sadness. it is all a matter of emotion and expression. If you want to get poetic in expression. I can get carried away and say rain is Manna from heaven fell from the sky.... is that poetic expression, or is it literal truth? Manna from heaven was like the coriander seed. it had stripes and was pure white. Symbolism, or literal truth? Poetic license, Artistic expression? What truth is of it? Just because someone says they are saved, does that mean they really are if they don't know to turn to Jesus and not to nature or man? We see things in nature, and we see things in man, but do they truly speak of Jesus? Or are we playing with words that are not in line with the Truth of The Holy Spirit of God? I know I'm not the best writer, and I make mistakes also... But does it mean just because someone belongs to some certain denomination and they write something, does it mean they are speaking for the whole group of where the source of inspiration comes from?

And to continue on.... St. Francis writes of the trees....
Is the cross in the trees? All poetic expression. Many people do that. Not just the Catholics and the Orthodox Catholics.



Soma-Sight, we need to be careful whom we are praising here and to whom the honor goes to. Surely, it must not be to any certain individual that receives the praise and honor, not to any specific denomination or group of people! We must praise God for blessing them in the holy spirit of truth.

Ask, is what St. Francis of Assisi wrote so profound, really? Or was he just spending a lazy day in nature fantasizing.


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And please do forgive me, I have a difficult time relaying some thing in just a few sentences. We are all guilty of this, at times. Yes? 8-)

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[cj]

I don't present the 'killing work of the cross.' I present Christ Crucified AND resurrected. I am interested in reaching out to those who are seeking.

OC says that he does not..... "present the 'killing work of the cross.' I present Christ Crucified AND resurrected."

"Christ Crucified AND resurrected"....... at the center of which we find, the killing work of the cross.

But don't take my word for it, take the words of God Himself,....

John 12:24, "Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it abides alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit."

And also Paul, the apostle of God, says,....

1 Corinthians  15 : 36, "Foolish man, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies;"


A history lesson....... In the early years of the Church, Satan did all that he could to put and end to the "way"........ he had believers executed, he had them hated, cast out, beaten, imprisoned, and surely persecuted to the ends of their strength.

But the Church continued, and even grew in numbers, despite this torrid persecution.

Then Satan changed his tactics, and in an act of extreme craftiness and guile, he "joined" himself to the body so that a counterfeit might be produced from within her.

And thus was the Roman institution conceived, and later, made manifest.


Satan is well aware that he is defeated,.... but he is also very much aware that he has the power to continue to delay the Lord's return and thus lengthen his days of spreading pain and suffering amongst that which he hates the most on this earth, the body of Christ.

The body is not built up by the adding of numbers, but by the growth of God within the very being of those who would believe.

Therefore, if Satan can stop this growth from taking place, he can effectively hinder the Lord's return; for the Lord is returning for His grown bride.


And how does the body grow?


Listen again to the Lord's own words...... "Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it abides alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit."


Yes saints, growth in God comes only through the killing work of the cross, which is the way the old man is terminated.


Any who would attempt to play down this truth is a liar and the truth is not in him. For the cross and its killing work is the center of God's work in man.

There is no way to have a living and a being in resurrection other than through the cross, and the application of its killing work.


If nothing else, understand this, the way of the mother of all harlots is centered on having those who would believe try to attain the risen Christ (and all that He is to us in His resurrection) through works, and not through death. This is the wickedness of God's adversary, as it denies what the Son has done.

"I don't present the 'killing work of the cross.' I present Christ Crucified AND resurrected."

And let us compare it with what Jesus declares as being the reason for which He came, and thus find the true pattern......

John 12:27, "Now is My soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save Me out of this hour. But for this reason I have come to this hour.


John 10:17, "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again."


And why saints, why is the work of the cross so crucial for us to see and have applied to our own life?

Let the precious one, Peter, he who throughout his life struggled with his own old man, tell us in his own words......

1 Peter 1 : 18 - 19, "Knowing that it was not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, that you were redeemed from your vain manner of life handed down from your fathers,..... but with precious blood, as of a Lamb without blemish and without spot, the blood of Christ;


The entire earthly life of our Lord was focused on, and thus for, what would take place on Mount Calvary. And this is our pattern to take.



John the Baptist said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

And our Lord said in Luke 10:3, "Go; behold, I send you as lambs in the midst of wolves."


And there is so much more saints, so much more from which to draw in order that the counterfeit work of Satan may be exposed.


Just see saints, just allow the Lord to continue to apply His light to your being through the opening up of His word, and see the truth concerning Satan's counterfeit work.


In love,
cj

 

[cj]

Jesus did not send believers into the world to teach the acceptance of different points of view.

We are not to "entice people into the kingdom" using the wisdom of the world.

1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Doing good deeds is not preaching the gospel. Francis of Assisi was wrong.

1 Corinthians 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

1 Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

It takes preaching to save people. Preaching the message of the cross is what pleases God.

"it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."

And thus the ground of oneness is establish, and therefore made manifest.


John 17:21, "That they all may be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that You have sent Me."


How they vainly attempt to trample down the truth with their lies.


In love,
cj

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Doing good works preaches the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus said so.

Of course, this is only the beginning of the gospel, or one part- certainly the entirety of the gospel is not the social gospel- nor is the netirety of the gospel the Last Judgement.

Wisdom is knowing when to preach what to whom. We see clearly that Paul knew how to become all things to all men that he might win some. There are an abundance of people who will hear the gospel in the midst of human kindness. Still others are moved by displays of courage, yet others by patience. The gospel is not words only, but words carried in truth, and in spiritual fruit (Galatians 5:22) which makes the words become Word for the hearer.

Foolish men who think that people hear only with their ears.

 

[bibleberean]

Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Doing good works preaches the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus said so.

Of course, this is only the beginning of the gospel, or one part- certainly the entirety of the gospel is not the social gospel- nor is the netirety of the gospel the Last Judgement.

Wisdom is knowing when to preach what to whom. We see clearly that Paul knew how to become all things to all men that he might win some. There are an abundance of people who will hear the gospel in the midst of human kindness. Still others are moved by displays of courage, yet others by patience. The gospel is not words only, but words carried in truth, and in spiritual fruit (Galatians 5:22) which makes the words become Word for the hearer.

Foolish men who think that people hear only with their ears.

Doing good works glorifies God but it is not preaching the gospel.

Believers are saved "for" good works not "by" them.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

An atheist or pedophile can do good works too but it will not save them nor will it lead people to Christ.

The preaching of the gospel is what pleases God and saves people.

Words are necessary.

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Romans 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

 

[Judy]

I have edited out all the personal attacks in this topic. However, if I have missed some of the negitive remarks, please point it out and I will delete it also.
Now that the topic have been cleaned up can we please not take personal shots at each other. :-? Stay on topic and if you disagree with what is being said. Then address what you disagree with but not the person.

Thanks :wink:

 

[Vic C.]

Plus, lets try and keep the posts down to a respectable length. Some of the posts are very long. Break it up into tow posts if the thought is that long.

 

[Orthodoxy]

Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Doing good works preaches the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus said so.

Of course, this is only the beginning of the gospel, or one part- certainly the entirety of the gospel is not the social gospel- nor is the netirety of the gospel the Last Judgement.

Wisdom is knowing when to preach what to whom. We see clearly that Paul knew how to become all things to all men that he might win some. There are an abundance of people who will hear the gospel in the midst of human kindness. Still others are moved by displays of courage, yet others by patience. The gospel is not words only, but words carried in truth, and in spiritual fruit (Galatians 5:22) which makes the words become Word for the hearer.

Foolish men who think that people hear only with their ears.

Doing good works glorifies God but it is not preaching the gospel.

Believers are saved "for" good works not "by" them.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

An atheist or pedophile can do good works too but it will not save them nor will it lead people to Christ.

The preaching of the gospel is what pleases God and saves people.

Words are necessary.

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Romans 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

bibleberean,

Will I be saved if I do good things after I "confess Jesus Christ with my mouth and believe in my heart that He has risen from the dead"? 

Will God send me to hell for my "good works"(which BTW are nothing before Him for I do nothing good) and "working out my own salvation with fear and trembling"? 

The is no question that "good men" do "good works" for the heathen and pagans do "good works". Thus "works" are not a requirement for salvation however works are a clear indication one has converted. It is unfortunate the heterodox faith preaches against works for that is a significant indication one has had a change of heart. Thus I question the "salvation" of the heterodox that poo poo works in the Kingdom of God.

It is interesting how you say words are necessary yet it is not the words but the preacher and his feet that bring the glad tidings which are orally transmitted. Note nothing is said about a bible? Why do you think Paul did not say "how shall they hear without reading the "bible"? Who appoints the preacher who is sent to preach the gospel? 

I submit the Church ordains and sends "the preacher" as Jesus sent the aposltes. Jesus ordained the aposltes in is ministry and they in turn appointed men. Jesus never sent a book to preach the gospel. Nothing is said in these verses about the preacher reading a book then preaching a gospel of his own making, no, it plainly states "how shall they preach, except they be sent?" The act of sending has its origins in the historical and authentic Church. Unless the "preacher" is speaking what has always been understood and believed by the whole Church throughout time and space, he is speaking from "leaning on his own understanding". 

Orthodoxy

 

[Orthodoxy]

Orthodox Christian,

I agree. We must try and remember also "he that does not work, does not eat". Maybe there will be a whole bunch of hungry heterodox christians in the kingdom?

Orthodoxy