I am struggling to keep my faith would love some help or support!

[MikaNL]

Hello everyone, i hope you are all doing well, my name is Mika, 21 years old and i am from the Netherlands! Last months i was in a pretty dark place regarding my faith and the church i normally go to (which is a Dutch reformed church on the lighter side of Calvinism) I am a church goer for 2 years now and was not raised Christian, me and my girlfriend are the only Christians in my group of loved ones but my parents are supportive and loving.

I hope i am not posting the wrong thing here or wasting anyone's time with this post but I do hope you have some wisdom of your own or recommendations for books or resources to share regarding these issues. I am currently still in a confusing and pretty depressing place regarding some Faith and life issues and they are making my life pretty hard to live for some reason. They are making my faith even harder to keep because i start doubting if all of this Christianity is true or not, I know for sure God exists in some way and i am very convinced of Jesus's resurrection based on the evidence but some things are making me very sad.

+disclaimer+ i will now get into the issues if you are scared of losing your faith or getting 'infected' by someone's doubts and losing your salvation you don't have to read this, much love anyways!

This is going to be a very long post and i hope you will read it but if you don't have the time, don't feel guilty!

I'll start by being grateful for life, I love life a lot. i am a very blessed guy i am starting a business in health/mental health-care together with my dad and my girlfriend would like to get involved in some time in the future as well and it is working out pretty well not making enough to move out yet but very grateful and i love what i do. I had to struggle really hard to get fit, start the business etc. God blessed me with the best girlfriend in the world who always supports me and we fill each others gaps perfectly. I've always loved nature and animals very much i feel the closest to God and the most at peace when in nature or watching a nature doc etc. So praise God, he also delivered me from my drug addictions and other bad lifestyle stuff, i am also grateful for my past as an addict because that gave me the experience to help people with my business.

I (just as everyone else) have also suffered a lot in this life but that does not break my worldview perse because i don't want to label situations good or bad, because i don't know what God wants to do with it on his timing, (a little thought experiment) lets say a meteor strikes this earth right now, it will feel horrible but it could be so that this earth scatters and seeds into 4 other earths within 5 billion years or so, that could result in 5 times the life and the progression of this universe and in some way God could intend his good with that (just a hypothetical to say that God is truly sovereign and knows Good from evil, we don't know it on that grand a scale).

With that being said i will get into the things i really wrestle with:

- Why do we as Christians and some writers in the bible use satan some type of opposite force to God or some scapegoat for evil if God also created him and us full knowing the evil that would happen (if you categorise evil in that way, i don't do that perse but the church i go to does and most Christian influencers do as well). That seems totally illogical to me why would God allow an enemy angel of Him to cause evil if killing satan would harm no humans or their free will. In the first and second temple Judaism this idea is also not really present but mostly in the Hellenistic period it starts to come into play. Modern rabbinic Judaism also has a more 'God is in control' idea that seems a lot more logical to me.

- Why should i hate this world and always look to the next world, or always value what happens after i die more then this life on this side of eternity, that also seems very weird keeping in mind my first struggle, God created this world so why hate it all it makes me question Gods ability to create something good, i have seen a lot of community's completely isolate themselves from the world with exception of evangelising (lots of respect for that though). I struggle a lot with having my centre of gravity, so to speak, on being saved from hell after i die, this completely killed my will to live, to do good, try to make the world a better place by God's spirit working in me and to love my parents and loved ones who are not believers (who would, by proxy of this doctrine, be sent to infinite hell for finite transgressions or thought crimes of not thinking the gospel is true).

- Why did God make people to be sent to hell anyways or this world and universe even if it should all be destroyed eternally and renewed only for the people of my specific religion (i know this is a byproduct of Calvinism so you don't have to address this if you don't believe He causally determines everything). The doctrine of penal substitutionary atonement is where i laid my diagnosis for this struggle, once again makes me question God's ability to create if all is condemned to hell by default and only the ones who believe that and accept Jesus will be living in eternal bliss in the next age. It makes me feel so incredibly dead inside that i wanted to actually grill myself if you know what i mean. Makes it seem as if every good thing that i try to do With God powering my every being just does not matter because it will not get me to 'be saved' or my parents and friends who have been through so much. I would gladly go to hell to know my parents to not go so i don't get it at all.

To be honest, i don't blame people for rejecting this version of Christianity because they did not chose to be born, none of us did, and there still is a lot felt suffering among all beings, aswell as a lot of joy i don't see the patterns of real life matching up to this religion perse.

The people i know that rejected Christian teaching like my dad and my mom don't say they reject Jesus, they just struggled with the same things i do know after 2 years in Christianity, and they started living for this life because these issues made them not think Christianity is true anymore.

Once again we did not chose to be born so a lot of the analogy's I commonly hear don't really work when talking about eternal punishment or Penal Substitutionary Atonement, same with literal hell or heaven. They kind of get less convincing for me especially with the whole God is always in control theme the old testament wisdom literature brings like proverbs, Job and especially Ecclesiastes (my favourite old testament book). God being in control over everything is a hard pill to swallow but it gives you tremendous peace if you can accept it (which i did before becoming Christian) i was convinced of Judaism (noahidism) before i was convinced of Jesus's resurrection. And the longer i have been in Christianity the more depressed and suicidal i have gotten. I took a long break from church and went back to just reading bible and limiting my Christian content consumption to a select few and my depression got the edge taken off. Note: before Christianity i was not depressed at all, i was very peaceful and purposeful to live for God in jewish or even non religious context.

I may read a bit aggressive here and maybe a bit judgemental in my attacks or critiques, i hope i have not offended anyone but i am just looking for a way to live as God wants me to live and to do as much good by His power as i possibly can. Also having my purpose back to do good on this world would be nice because every Sunday after church has made me increasingly more depressed

English is not my first language so forgive me for the weird grammar. I hope someone has some wisdom to share with me, please hold me accountable if i have any contradictions in this text i wont get offended i love discussion!

thanks a lot and much love from the Netherlands, if anyone is open for 1 on 1 discussion i am very open too. God bless friends!

 

[Hidden In Him]

Greetings, Mika.

- Why do we as Christians and some writers in the bible use satan some type of opposite force to God or some scapegoat for evil if God also created him and us full knowing the evil that would happen (if you categorise evil in that way, i don't do that perse but the church i go to does and most Christian influencers do as well). That seems totally illogical to me why would God allow an enemy angel of Him to cause evil if killing satan would harm no humans or their free will. In the first and second temple Judaism this idea is also not really present but mostly in the Hellenistic period it starts to come into play. Modern rabbinic Judaism also has a more 'God is in control' idea that seems a lot more logical to me.

In short, because that's what scripture teaches.

- Why should i hate this world and always look to the next world, or always value what happens after i die more then this life on this side of eternity, that also seems very weird keeping in mind my first struggle, God created this world so why hate it all it makes me question Gods ability to create something good, i have seen a lot of community's completely isolate themselves from the world with exception of evangelising (lots of respect for that though). I struggle a lot with having my centre of gravity, so to speak, on being saved from hell after i die, this completely killed my will to live, to do good, try to make the world a better place by God's spirit working in me and to love my parents and loved ones who are not believers (who would, by proxy of this doctrine, be sent to infinite hell for finite transgressions or thought crimes of not thinking the gospel is true).

God doesn't say to hate it all, just not to put it before Him.

- Why did God make people to be sent to hell anyways or this world and universe even if it should all be destroyed eternally and renewed only for the people of my specific religion (i know this is a byproduct of Calvinism so you don't have to address this if you don't believe He causally determines everything). The doctrine of penal substitutionary atonement is where i laid my diagnosis for this struggle, once again makes me question God's ability to create if all is condemned to hell by default and only the ones who believe that and accept Jesus will be living in eternal bliss in the next age. It makes me feel so incredibly dead inside that i wanted to actually grill myself if you know what i mean. Makes it seem as if every good thing that i try to do With God powering my every being just does not matter because it will not get me to 'be saved' or my parents and friends who have been through so much. I would gladly go to hell to know my parents to not go so i don't get it at all.

Well, without wanting to sound too condemning, I think this stems more from the Calvinistic worldview than a traditional Christian one. There is nothing fatalistic in my Christian worldview, but maybe precisely because I'm not a Calvinist.

may read a bit aggressive here and maybe a bit judgemental in my attacks or critiques, i hope i have not offended anyone

Not at all. Welcome to CFN, and you may get some other responses later in the day. I'm just giving you the short version atm cuz it's all I have time for.

Blessings,
- H

 

[Henry]

Hello everyone, i hope you are all doing well, my name is Mika, 21 years old and i am from the Netherlands! Last months i was in a pretty dark place regarding my faith and the church i normally go to (which is a Dutch reformed church on the lighter side of Calvinism) I am a church goer for 2 years now and was not raised Christian, me and my girlfriend are the only Christians in my group of loved ones but my parents are supportive and loving.

I hope i am not posting the wrong thing here or wasting anyone's time with this post but I do hope you have some wisdom of your own or recommendations for books or resources to share regarding these issues. I am currently still in a confusing and pretty depressing place regarding some Faith and life issues and they are making my life pretty hard to live for some reason. They are making my faith even harder to keep because i start doubting if all of this Christianity is true or not, I know for sure God exists in some way and i am very convinced of Jesus's resurrection based on the evidence but some things are making me very sad.

+disclaimer+ i will now get into the issues if you are scared of losing your faith or getting 'infected' by someone's doubts and losing your salvation you don't have to read this, much love anyways!

This is going to be a very long post and i hope you will read it but if you don't have the time, don't feel guilty!

I'll start by being grateful for life, I love life a lot. i am a very blessed guy i am starting a business in health/mental health-care together with my dad and my girlfriend would like to get involved in some time in the future as well and it is working out pretty well not making enough to move out yet but very grateful and i love what i do. I had to struggle really hard to get fit, start the business etc. God blessed me with the best girlfriend in the world who always supports me and we fill each others gaps perfectly. I've always loved nature and animals very much i feel the closest to God and the most at peace when in nature or watching a nature doc etc. So praise God, he also delivered me from my drug addictions and other bad lifestyle stuff, i am also grateful for my past as an addict because that gave me the experience to help people with my business.

I (just as everyone else) have also suffered a lot in this life but that does not break my worldview perse because i don't want to label situations good or bad, because i don't know what God wants to do with it on his timing, (a little thought experiment) lets say a meteor strikes this earth right now, it will feel horrible but it could be so that this earth scatters and seeds into 4 other earths within 5 billion years or so, that could result in 5 times the life and the progression of this universe and in some way God could intend his good with that (just a hypothetical to say that God is truly sovereign and knows Good from evil, we don't know it on that grand a scale).

With that being said i will get into the things i really wrestle with:

- Why do we as Christians and some writers in the bible use satan some type of opposite force to God or some scapegoat for evil if God also created him and us full knowing the evil that would happen (if you categorise evil in that way, i don't do that perse but the church i go to does and most Christian influencers do as well). That seems totally illogical to me why would God allow an enemy angel of Him to cause evil if killing satan would harm no humans or their free will. In the first and second temple Judaism this idea is also not really present but mostly in the Hellenistic period it starts to come into play. Modern rabbinic Judaism also has a more 'God is in control' idea that seems a lot more logical to me.

- Why should i hate this world and always look to the next world, or always value what happens after i die more then this life on this side of eternity, that also seems very weird keeping in mind my first struggle, God created this world so why hate it all it makes me question Gods ability to create something good, i have seen a lot of community's completely isolate themselves from the world with exception of evangelising (lots of respect for that though). I struggle a lot with having my centre of gravity, so to speak, on being saved from hell after i die, this completely killed my will to live, to do good, try to make the world a better place by God's spirit working in me and to love my parents and loved ones who are not believers (who would, by proxy of this doctrine, be sent to infinite hell for finite transgressions or thought crimes of not thinking the gospel is true).

- Why did God make people to be sent to hell anyways or this world and universe even if it should all be destroyed eternally and renewed only for the people of my specific religion (i know this is a byproduct of Calvinism so you don't have to address this if you don't believe He causally determines everything). The doctrine of penal substitutionary atonement is where i laid my diagnosis for this struggle, once again makes me question God's ability to create if all is condemned to hell by default and only the ones who believe that and accept Jesus will be living in eternal bliss in the next age. It makes me feel so incredibly dead inside that i wanted to actually grill myself if you know what i mean. Makes it seem as if every good thing that i try to do With God powering my every being just does not matter because it will not get me to 'be saved' or my parents and friends who have been through so much. I would gladly go to hell to know my parents to not go so i don't get it at all.

To be honest, i don't blame people for rejecting this version of Christianity because they did not chose to be born, none of us did, and there still is a lot felt suffering among all beings, aswell as a lot of joy i don't see the patterns of real life matching up to this religion perse.

The people i know that rejected Christian teaching like my dad and my mom don't say they reject Jesus, they just struggled with the same things i do know after 2 years in Christianity, and they started living for this life because these issues made them not think Christianity is true anymore.

Once again we did not chose to be born so a lot of the analogy's I commonly hear don't really work when talking about eternal punishment or Penal Substitutionary Atonement, same with literal hell or heaven. They kind of get less convincing for me especially with the whole God is always in control theme the old testament wisdom literature brings like proverbs, Job and especially Ecclesiastes (my favourite old testament book). God being in control over everything is a hard pill to swallow but it gives you tremendous peace if you can accept it (which i did before becoming Christian) i was convinced of Judaism (noahidism) before i was convinced of Jesus's resurrection. And the longer i have been in Christianity the more depressed and suicidal i have gotten. I took a long break from church and went back to just reading bible and limiting my Christian content consumption to a select few and my depression got the edge taken off. Note: before Christianity i was not depressed at all, i was very peaceful and purposeful to live for God in jewish or even non religious context.

I may read a bit aggressive here and maybe a bit judgemental in my attacks or critiques, i hope i have not offended anyone but i am just looking for a way to live as God wants me to live and to do as much good by His power as i possibly can. Also having my purpose back to do good on this world would be nice because every Sunday after church has made me increasingly more depressed

English is not my first language so forgive me for the weird grammar. I hope someone has some wisdom to share with me, please hold me accountable if i have any contradictions in this text i wont get offended i love discussion!

thanks a lot and much love from the Netherlands, if anyone is open for 1 on 1 discussion i am very open too. God bless friends!

Hi Mika, I can help you with the answers you're looking for. I also grew up in the Dutch Reformed church in South Africa and know where you're coming from. I had the same struggles you mentioned and someone gave me a solution. After applying it, everything changed and I started to grow in my love relationship with the Lord. Over the 50 years of actively loving the Lord, I have acquired much wisdom as to how the Kingdom of God and the spiritual realm functions. As I read your plea, many answers to you concerns came to me. I would like to stay in touch with you because it will take time to walk the road with you. I'm new on this platform and am scared I might lose contact with you. My mother tongue is Afrikaans, a derivative of Dutch, i.e. Dutch speaking and Afrikaans speaking people understand one another. I leave you my email address in case we lose contact: cwhl@live.co.uk. Groete, Henry

 

[Who Me]

I am currently still in a confusing and pretty depressing place regarding some Faith and life issues and they are making my life pretty hard to live for some reason. They are making my faith even harder to keep because i start doubting if all of this Christianity is true or not

Welcome to the forum.
May I ask why you think we should have a say in whether we are born or not?

God grants us life and gives us rules how to live this life.
Why then is there an objection to how people.e who by their life style reject God and his rules?

The world is very beautiful and has many wonderful people init, yet the world is scarred by the consequences of sin, people no matter how lovely do not seek to honour their creator.
So why didn't God stop the devil? Simple because God wants us to love him willingly and not as mindless robots.

This means there is a consequence to not following/obeying God.

 

[D-D-W]

Hi Mika and welcome to the forums!

As to your look into Judaism, past and present, you are faced with a problem. And it is also at the root of the disagreement between Calvin and Arminius. It is a difference of world views and logic frameworks.

Judaic writings (including the Bible - both testaments) use what is called "Judaic block logic" or Adductive logic. It is quite different from the Aristotelian logic most of the world takes as axiomatic. Block logic predates Aristotle by at least a millennium. Many things that are considered "mutually exclusive" in Aristotelian logic can live quite comfortably together in Block logic. Like predestination and free will. Even the ideas of "Perseverance of the Saints" (once saved always saved) and the ability to lose salvation.

If you have questions on this, please ask.

 

[MikaNL]

Hi Mika and welcome to the forums!

As to your look into Judaism, past and present, you are faced with a problem. And it is also at the root of the disagreement between Calvin and Arminius. It is a difference of world views and logic frameworks.

Judaic writings (including the Bible - both testaments) use what is called "Judaic block logic" or Adductive logic. It is quite different from the Aristotelian logic most of the world takes as axiomatic. Block logic predates Aristotle by at least a millennium. Many things that are considered "mutually exclusive" in Aristotelian logic can live quite comfortably together in Block logic. Like predestination and free will. Even the ideas of "Perseverance of the Saints" (once saved always saved) and the ability to lose salvation.

If you have questions on this, please ask.

Thank you sir, did not know about the block logic but predestination and free will never collided for me either, because God is outside of time we, by our own logic, cannot apply that limited logic to God. Thanks! Did you know Calvin was a lawyer btw? that probably made him able to bottle the gospel very compactly (much respect) but maybe, lowering the resolution of the idea a bit too much in my opinion. Thanks again!

 

[MikaNL]

Welcome to the forum.
May I ask why you think we should have a say in whether we are born or not?

God grants us life and gives us rules how to live this life.
Why then is there an objection to how people.e who by their life style reject God and his rules?

The world is very beautiful and has many wonderful people init, yet the world is scarred by the consequences of sin, people no matter how lovely do not seek to honour their creator.
So why didn't God stop the devil? Simple because God wants us to love him willingly and not as mindless robots.

This means there is a consequence to not following/obeying God.

Thanks for the reply! I don't think we should have a say in wether we are born or not, that is not my point.

What is my struggle is the consequence of not being convinced of the gospel (a thought crime) or doing a finite bad thing being eternal punishment (in doctrine, not always in the bible) this makes it very hard to defend because we are then forced to be born and forced to be in a specific religion or be punished eternally. I don't defend this position but this is the logical consequence down the road of some very common doctrines.

 

[MikaNL]

Greetings, Mika.


In short, because that's what scripture teaches.


God doesn't say to hate it all, just not to put it before Him.


Well, without wanting to sound too condemning, I think this stems more from the Calvinistic worldview than a traditional Christian one. There is nothing fatalistic in my Christian worldview, but maybe precisely because I'm not a Calvinist.


Not at all. Welcome to CFN, and you may get some other responses later in the day. I'm just giving you the short version atm cuz it's all I have time for.

Blessings,
- H

Thanks for taking the time anyways! Much love.

on the: "In short, because that's what scripture teaches." response. I get that, but scripture teaches other things in other parts. which makes it biblically and logically hard to defend.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Thanks for taking the time anyways! Much love.

on the: "In short, because that's what scripture teaches." response. I get that, but scripture teaches other things in other parts. which makes it biblically and logically hard to defend.

Ok, well then let’s address this one, and you provide the scriptures you say which state the opposite.

But for starters, angels were created with free will as well, yes? And as such, what would it say to the rest of creation if the Lord simply eradicated His creations when they sinned?

 

[Who Me]

we are then forced to be born and forced to be in a specific religion or be punished eternally.

You say forced to be born, but the bible describes children as a blessing, so the idea of birth being an unpleasant thing to be endured is not true.

God as creator has the right to state the terms by which we should live.

What standard do you use to judge God?

 

[MikaNL]

You say forced to be born, but the bible describes children as a blessing, so the idea of birth being an unpleasant thing to be endured is not true.

God as creator has the right to state the terms by which we should live.

What standard do you use to judge God?

Judging God is impossible that is not my point. God has every right to state His terms i agree. But muslims and jews also think that the terms their scriptures state are form God and we would say they are wrong, some would say so wrong they are damned by it. This in context of not choosing to be born in, lets say a muslim family, makes this doctrine hard to defend for me.

But once again brother i am not defending this doctrine, i love life, i love being born in God's beautyful creation. And children are indeed a blessing of God. But within the doctrine i am talking about you are forced to be born because being born in a muslim family and dying a muslim, trying to search for God, (if we could make such a hypothetical) could damn one to hell.

I cannot believe that God would do that that is why i have my critique to this doctrine. But i have no judgement towards God. Thank you for the honest reply!

 

[MikaNL]

Ok, well then let’s address this one, and you provide the scriptures you say which state the opposite.

But for starters, angels were created with free will as well, yes? And as such, what would it say to the rest of creation if the Lord simply irradiated His creations when they sinned?

Thanks for the invitation! Lets state first that i don't want a fight or want to attack your faith i just love discussion so let's go.

Firstly as I said i found the issue biblically and logically hard to defend, we are now going in to biblical discussion but my logical issue is not tackled by default, hopefully the bible sets that straight.

As to the angel argument (i hope i understand it right) i don't really know if all angels are created with free will but we could go with that to be true just for clarity. As for your question after: I think you mean irradicated (but at least you mean something bad)

If the root cause for sin is satan then killing the root cause would save the estimated 2.5 million deaths by God in the old testament just through wars and purging sinful people like the cananites etc (if satan is not a part of God's plan, which i think in some way he has to be). This is also an argument against your question, God used the nation israel to kill loads of people in the old testament who sinned, so killing the root cause (satan or the serpent in the garden) would be a lot less cruel. or at least would leave us with a lot less death.

If you see holes in that argumentation let me know, but i must say i am not saying God is not doing His job or something like that. I am saying that if we presume satan as a force for evil separate from God then we are judging God in his descisions by proxy.

now the issue at hand about hating the world, or at least that big paragraph you answered.

1. if you read ecclesiastes 9:1-10 it can bring up some questions, it is beautyful wisdom though
2. Not exactly on the same issue but a really interesting passage is isaiah 45 (the whole thing) but zooming into verse 6 and 7 especially.
3. ecclesiastes 3:12-13, proverbs 15:15, john 10:10, james 1:17, phillipians 4:4 (these are not arguments perse but are verses that lead me to a more balanced and joyful perspective)
4. God created the world good in genesis of course, He gave us the task to partner with Him, we messed up in the partnership (if that was what was meant to be or not depends on your conclusion of the first discussion about angels etc) but it is not strange for me to assume he still wants to partner with us, and heal us and the world through Jesus to bring His Kingdom here on earth, i think Jesus also talked a really fair bit about that.

I don't remember the passage exactly but in the gospel of Luke Jesus was asked about this kingdom by the pharisees and Jesus said it is already here, but also coming soon, and also not to be seen or viewed. so I think there is something mystical going on there that is not that easily put in a theological box.

 

[KV-44-v1]

Hello everyone, i hope you are all doing well, my name is Mika, 21 years old and i am from the Netherlands!

Woah, freind, don't dox yourself! Privacy is a good thing.

recommendations for books or resources to share regarding these issues.

https://answersingenesis.org https://creation.com https://str.org <-- three GREAT sites that defend the Faith! read many of articles, these sites post fairly often.

I am currently still in a confusing and pretty depressing place regarding some Faith and life issues and they are making my life pretty hard to live for some reason. They are making my faith even harder to keep because i start doubting if all of this Christianity is true or not,

Christianity logically explains the most things, out of all the worldviews that there are.

I know for sure God exists in some way and i am very convinced of Jesus's resurrection based on the evidence but some things are making me very sad.

Bombardier beetle design. Fine tuning of universe. Mao, lenin, stalin, all ATHIESTS - rejecting God leads to evil. Romans 1:20-25 being proven right by athiest behavior. And more.

I (just as everyone else) have also suffered a lot in this life but that does not break my worldview perse because i don't want to label situations good or bad, because i don't know what God wants to do with it

on his timing,

Great advice: Uppercase He, Him, His, when referring to God. thanks
Clears away confusion and respects Him.

- Why do we as Christians and some writers in the Bible use satan some type of opposite force to God or some scapegoat for evil if God also created Him

Same reason history book writers use hitler as some type of evil force. Because that is objectively, really, what happened in history. The devil chose to rebel because he got prideful.

and us full knowing the evil that would happen (if you categorise evil in that way, i don't do that perse but the church i go to does and most Christian influencers do as well). That seems totally illogical to me why would God allow an enemy angel of Him to cause evil if killing satan would harm no humans or their free will.

if God were fake, why does anything exist? why are the laws of physics the way they are, instead of evolving? why do many humans have intrinsic morality? There are going to be questions we won't know the answer to in this world. Pick which worldview has the least of these questions that are so tough or even impossible for us to truly know the answers to.
I'd rather struggle with "why does evil exist" than "why does anything exist".
if there were ""NO"" God why does GOOD exist?
evil existing is evidence that Genesis actually happened and that lucifer actually rebelled. Not a fairy tale at all.

In the first and second temple Judaism this idea is also not really present but mostly in the Hellenistic period it starts to come into play. Modern rabbinic Judaism also has a more 'God is in control' idea that seems a lot more logical to me.

How so? Christians also believe God is in control of things. Elaborate?

- Why should i hate this world and always look to the next world

Don't need to hate it, just hate the evil and sin. dont do idolatry.

makes me question Gods ability to create something good

Read Genesis, He already did make good things. But lucifer wanted rebellion. Blame the devil for bad states of things. Blame lazy nonChristians who functionally worship themselves instead of being Christians making things better.

(who would, by proxy of this doctrine, be sent to infinite hell for finite transgressions or thought crimes of not thinking the gospel is true).

Sins are sins against an Eternal God. Also, God is Just, so i believe they will suffer less than someone like stalin. i believe the devil itself will get the absolute WORST punishment.

- Why did God make people to be sent to hell

What do you mean by this? That He intended them to go there, somewhat like how someone intends to write a book?

anyways or this world and universe even if it should all be destroyed eternally and renewed only for the people of my specific religion (i know this is a byproduct of Calvinism so you don't have to address this if you don't believe He causally determines everything).

Freewill is real. Calvinism is likely not correct in some areas.

It makes me feel so incredibly dead inside that i wanted to actually grill myself if you know what i mean.

Well, murder is a sin, and sucide is self murder. It will quickly drag those who commit sucide to the eternal fire. And it is an abuse of your body which is precious. God loves all.

Makes it seem as if every good thing that i try to do With God powering my every being just does not matter because it will not get me to 'be saved'

Faith saves. works are simply evidence you are saved, but remember - the works do NOT save, the FAITH does.

Analogy: The tiny crumbs of your food on your mouth are evidence you ate food, but they didn't feed you. the FACT that you DID eat food is what will keep you alive. The crumbs aren't even in your stomach, so how can the crumbs keep you alive?

or my parents and friends who have been through so much. I would gladly go to hell to know my parents to not go so i don't get it at all.

Go? as in a visit for a few minutes?

To be honest, i don't blame people for rejecting this version of Christianity because they did not chose to be born, none of us did, and there still is a lot felt suffering among all beings, aswell as a lot of joy i don't see the patterns of real life matching up to this religion perse.

There are so few actually Saved, Biblical Christians. Gold and platinum are rare, too, but does that make them fake? You have to look, freind.

The people i know that rejected Christian teaching like my dad and my mom don't say they reject Jesus, they just struggled with the same things i do know after 2 years in Christianity, and they started living for this life because these issues made them not think Christianity is true anymore.

I'm sure they can come back. Try to win them over and show them those great sites.

. And the longer i have been in Christianity the more depressed and suicidal i have gotten.

Keep browsing this great forum for advice. We have you supported. you are in good hands here. ^0^
Maybe it is demons giving you those feelings? Idk, pray to Jesus and sincerely ask Him to "sort it out."

Note: before Christianity i was not depressed at all, i was very peaceful and purposeful to live for God in jewish or even non religious context.

Before calvinism, you mean? Seems like calvinism, specifically, did this. Not Christianity as a whole.

i love discussion!

so do i :D

 

[KV-44-v1]

If the root cause for sin is satan then killing the root cause would

Too easy. The devil's punishment is to basically burn forever.

save the estimated 2.5 million deaths by God in the old testament just through wars and purging sinful people like the cananites etc

How did you get this number? And no, not necessarily. Humans have free will so they would still sin whether or not the devil was punished.

This is also an argument against your question, God used the nation israel to kill loads of people in the old testament who sinned,

Fdr used americans to kill loads of natzis and Axis powers people too. The president during ww1 used Americans to kill loads of Central powers people too. The Union killed loads of confederates also. I don't like it either, but that's what happened.
This is NOT an excuse to reject God because by that logic, you must also reject that ww2, ww1, and the american civil war happened too.
I wish adam and eve never sinned, but sadly they did sin. There is good and there is evil. We see that the "victims" were not innocent, but evil, and you see their deeds.

killing the root cause (satan or the serpent in the garden) would be a lot less cruel. or at least would leave us with a lot less death.

If Adam and Eve did that, that would be great. But you saw their choice.
a lot less No death, because death didn't enter creation till the fall of man.

then we are judging God in His descisions by proxy

I doubt that.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I think you mean irradicated (but at least you mean something bad)

Yes, LoL. I just now noticed. It's spelled eradicated, so I was way off. Ha!

If the root cause for sin is satan then killing the root cause would save the estimated 2.5 million deaths by God in the old testament just through wars and purging sinful people like the cananites etc (if satan is not a part of God's plan, which i think in some way he has to be). This is also an argument against your question, God used the nation israel to kill loads of people in the old testament who sinned, so killing the root cause (satan or the serpent in the garden) would be a lot less cruel. or at least would leave us with a lot less death.

If you see holes in that argumentation let me know

My argument is that He is in the redemption business, and that if He were to simply eradicate (got it right that time) His creations when they sinned, what message does it send? That He is a merciless tyrant. But scripture says He would that all men come to repentance and be saved. Will Satan repent? No, he will never repent. He's too filled with hate. But how would God be viewed if Satan was never given a shot, and how would He be viewed if you and I were never given a shot either?

 

[Freedomtofly]

If the root cause for sin is satan then killing the root cause would save the estimated 2.5 million deaths by God in the old testament just through wars and purging sinful people like the cananites etc (if satan is not a part of God's plan, which i think in some way he has to be). This is also an argument against your question, God used the nation israel to kill loads of people in the old testament who sinned, so killing the root cause (satan or the serpent in the garden) would be a lot less cruel. or at least would leave us with a lot less death.
deaths by God in the old testament just through wars and purging sinful people like the cananites etc (if satan is not a part of God's plan, which i think in some way he has to be). This is also an argument against your question, God used the nation israel to kill loads of people in the old testament who sinned, so killing the root cause (satan or the serpent in the garden) would be a lot less cruel. or at least would leave us with a lot less death.
I wonder if I can just add something to this. …….a different prospectives to consider.
The whole issue for me was whether Adam and Eve would follow Gods wisdom and advice or their own. We all have free will with regards to how we respond to temptation or circumstances. The whole of the Old Testament is an unravelling story of God people either following their own wisdom or Gods, who did they trust, and what often follows are the consequences of those choices which have rippling effects all around us for good and bad.
I have always struggled with all the violence in the Old Testament , and if I am honest after 45 years of being a Christian I still don’t understand it all, but I know in my heart now that I have limited vision with regards to the bigger picture, and that’s what I trust God with.
My son and I are looking at the book of revelation, he is a young Christian , came to faith in his late 20’s, he was surprised when I said that I view it as a book of hope. He asked me ‘ What about all the bad things that it’s conveys ‘ well I relayed that it’s the knowledge that God knows exactly what is going on and why and it’s to put things right , as they should be. I don’t have an answer for all the suffering, but I no longer try to give an answer to that side of things.
I know that we have limited vision and understanding, God doesn’t. I think that has come with time. I have continuously asked questions over the years, never stopped and it’s through questioning that we grow as Christians. I find my questions change and when I look back I often discover that I have peace, not always answers, to things I have questioned in the past.
Not sure any of that will help, but felt I needed to respond.

 

[for_his_glory]

Satan is only planting doubt in your mind trying to steal your faith. Never allow Satan to steal your joy and the works you want to do to bring honor and glory to the Lord.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Is this fair and justifiable? Why would God create evil if He is suppose to be a loving just God?

The evil that God has created are His righteous judgements that come upon those who are not obedient to His commands. It's like that of the10 plagues in the book of Exodus as Pharaoh oppresses Israel while taken them into captivity as even though God gave him a chance to let them go he refused so God's punishment came against Egypt.

The same with many battles we read of in the OT that came against God's people as all is done in righteous judgement of God to show He is the Great I Am, Exodus 3:10-15.

So will it also be in the end of days when Christ returns in all His righteous judgement, Rev 19:11-21.

Since the beginning of Gods creation of the heavens and earth in Genesis chapter one there has been an adversary that separates us from God through deceit, temptations and lies. This adversary has many names which include: Lucifer, Satan, Devil, Beelzebub, Belial, Adversary, Dragon, Serpent and I’m sure a few others, but the important thing is who this being is and what purpose did he have and still has in heaven and earth. How did he come into existence in the first place and why was he not destroyed for his evil! Let us go and search the word of God for the answers.

God is a Spirit without form and the Lord made his angels spirits without form also. From these two scriptures below in John and Psalms we see that the inhabitants of heaven are not flesh and blood, but spirits created by God that cannot be destroyed by physical death, thus the term spiritual death that separates us from God. This is why Satan could never be physically destroyed.
(John 4:24; Psalms 104:4)

Lucifer’s name meant lightbearer when he was created as he was a reflection of Gods brightness as one who had favor in the Lord. God changed his name to Satan, which means adversary, after he fell from heaven. God changed many names from one to another in the Bible to reflect his glory through them as a nation. Lucifer was created perfect in all his ways with beauty, wisdom and freewill. God placed him as the guardian or protector over the throne of God in heaven. He was entrusted with many possessions and found much favor in the Lord.
(Ezekiel 28:13-17; Isaiah 14:12-15)

Satan was cast down to the earth and became the ruler of iniquity over it before the creation of man which is why he had the power and right to give the kingdoms of the world over to Christ. Satan corrupted the nations until there was no righteous person found except Noah. Even after Satan was cast down to the ground he still vowed that he would ascend back into heaven and take his place on the throne and be like the most high.

Remember, Satan is a spirit and not flesh and blood so when he was cut down to the ground it was not literal, but symbolic that his so called kingdom would be that of a lesser magnitude than Gods kingdom. Satan is the total opposite of the love that God represents so whatever good that God does Satan does the opposite. For instance we know that the greatest commandment of God is to love and our commission is to take his word out into the world. Our service is to feed the hungry, cloth the naked, visit the sick and those in prison. Prison can be a literal prison or those who are imprisoned in mind by their own devastation's of life circumstances that engulfs them. Since Satan is known as the god of this world and the prince of the powers of the air he has access to the throne of God to accuse the saints of God as Jesus makes intercession for them. Satan has no authority in heaven as he lost that privilege, but was cut down to earth and through his hatred and anger of God now uses his deceit to separate man from God by stealing the word of God from them thus stealing their faith in God.
(Matthew 22:36-40; Matthew 28:18-20; 2Corinthians 4:4; Ephesians 2:2; Rev 12:10)

We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the ruler of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Satan moves to and fro on the earth and has access to the throne of God to accuse the brethren. God made man in his image and breathed life into him. Man was created innocent, but also given free will, until Satan deceived Eve into eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil which she also gave to her husband Adam to eat of. Satan is very cunning and should be respected in the sense that he can do whatever it takes to separate us from God as his spiritual wickedness is increased through out the nations.
(Ephesians 6:11-12)

God has cut himself off from the world because of Satan’s reign of deceit and lies whom turned men’s hearts from the love of God as man devised unto their own imaginations and separated themselves from Gods will to their own will as they set up their own gods within themselves as being their own god. Satan has controlled the nations of this world from the beginning of mans creation using his angels (demons) placed in the souls of those world leaders who have turned away from God to reign with the power of Satan’s control working in them and through them as they seek out the riches of their nations by crushing those under their feet. God destroyed the earth once, but saved a remnant in Noah’s family and even today saves a remnant of those who are truly his that Satan will never separate from the love of God.
(Jeremiah 17:5-10; Genesis 6:5-8)

 

[JLB]

Why do we as Christians and some writers in the bible use satan some type of opposite force to God or some scapegoat for evil if God also created him and us full knowing the evil that would happen (if you categorise evil in that way, i don't do that perse but the church i go to does and most Christian influencers do as well). That seems totally illogical to me why would God allow an enemy angel of Him to cause evil if killing satan would harm no humans or their free will.

God did not create Satan.

Lucifer was created as a wise and beautiful angel.

He became lifted up in his heart and was removed from heaven along with 1 third of the angels.

Lucifer (light bearer) became Satan (enemy).

“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
For you have said in your heart:
I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
Isaiah 14:12-15


Again

Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:41-46

 

[Who Me]

But muslims and jews also think that the terms their scriptures state are form God

Yet Jesus says john8:19,You do not know me or my Father,” Jesus replied. “If you knew me, you would know my Father also.”
Neither Jews and Muslims do not know or worship Jesus, so they cannot know who God is, or they would worship Jesus.

you are forced to be born because being born in a muslim family and dying a muslim, trying to search for God, (if we could make such a hypothetical) could damn one to hell.

Again you say we are forced to be born! Where in the bible do you find this idea?
Because if it's not in the bible, then that idea is false.

As for those who do not know of God. Can you not consider that God would know who will accept Jesus and who would reject God andas a result arrange that those who would accept him, to ensure that they will meet with him.

If God knows which people will accept or reject him, can you not trust him to get it right about the many people who are not known to have heard of Jesus?

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Mika, I can help you with the answers you're looking for. I also grew up in the Dutch Reformed church in South Africa and know where you're coming from. I had the same struggles you mentioned and someone gave me a solution. After applying it, everything changed and I started to grow in my love relationship with the Lord. Over the 50 years of actively loving the Lord, I have acquired much wisdom as to how the Kingdom of God and the spiritual realm functions. As I read your plea, many answers to you concerns came to me. I would like to stay in touch with you because it will take time to walk the road with you. I'm new on this platform and am scared I might lose contact with you. My mother tongue is Afrikaans, a derivative of Dutch, i.e. Dutch speaking and Afrikaans speaking people understand one another. I leave you my email address in case we lose contact: cwhl@live.co.uk. Groete, Henry

Hi Henry,,,,
I would suggest that if you want to give someone your email address, you do it via email to keep it a private.
Just a suggestion.

Also, if you post on here, there are others with maybe the same questions that might benefit from your replies.

Welcome to the Forum !