I challenge all apologists: Prove Ps. 30:1-4 does not show Prophet David believed in Postmortem Salvation

[Alfred Persson]

You have brought up my soul from Sheol

1 A Psalm of David. A song at the dedication of the temple. I will extol you, O LORD, for you have drawn me up and have not let my foes rejoice over me.
2 O LORD my God, I cried to you for help, and you have healed me.
3 O LORD, you have brought up my soul from Sheol (07585 שְׁאוֹל she’owl); you restored me to life (02421 חָיַה chayah) from among those who go down to the pit (0953 בּוֹר bowr).
4 Sing praises to the LORD, O you his saints, and give thanks to his holy name. (Ps. 30:1-4 ESV)

Notes:

חִיָּה (never: to call into being out of nothing) always means to restore to life that which has apparently or really succumbed to death.-Keil, C. F., & Delitzsch, F. (1996). Commentary on the Old Testament (Vol. 5, p. 240). Hendrickson.

The MT reads מִיוֹרְדֵי־בוֹר (mîyôreḏê-ḇôr lit., “from the ones going down into the pit”), and the Qere suggests מִיָּרְדִי (mîyorḏî, “from my going down”). In view of the usage of this phrase in Ps. 28:1 and the unusual grammatical form of the Kethiv it is preferable to accept the MT without emendation. MT Masoretic text.-VanGemeren, W. A. (1991). Psalms. In F. E. Gaebelein (Ed.), The Expositor’s Bible Commentary: Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs (Vol. 5, p. 259). Zondervan Publishing House.

The “pit” is where those without hope go (Is. 38:18; Ez. 26:20; 31:14, 16; 32:18, 24, 29-32; Ps. 28:1 30:4; 88:5; 143:7).

David had what is today called an “Near Death Experience” or perhaps an “After Death Experience”. Other commentators agree:

David had a near-death experience that he describes in Ps 30.-Hamilton, J. M., Jr. (2021). Psalms (T. D. Alexander, T. R. Schreiner, & A. J. Köstenberger, Eds.; Vol. 1, p. 352). Lexham Academic.

The psalmist writes of being in the depths, of enemies eager to gloat over his vulnerable position, and perhaps even a near-death experience (30:1–3). Yet God had responded with deliverance, healing, and life.-Longman, T., III, ed. (2010). Psalms thru Song of Songs (Vol. 5, p. 29). Barbour Publishing.

David writes this psalm as a man who has just come out of a near-death experience.-Smith, J. J., & Akin, D. L. (2022). Exalting Jesus in Psalms 1–50 (D. Platt, D. L. Akin, & T. Merida, Eds.; p. 227). Holman Reference.

The point is not that David had actually died and been buried in the grave. Rather, “grave” (Hebrew, Sheol) simply depicts forcefully a near-death experience.-Barker, K. L. (1995). Praise. In Cracking old testament codes: a guide to interpreting literary genres of the old testament (p. 226). B&H Academic.

David reports he was near to dying the death of the wicked i.e., being cast into the pit and so “dying the death” of those who have no hope—-the second death from which there is no return to life. David literally says his soul was restored and brought up from Sheol from among the dammed going down into the pit.

Some claim this is only figurative of trials on earth but that would be deceptive.

If God didn’t literally rescue David from Sheol, the entire is misleading. Using figurative language to describe what does not exist in reality damages the credibility of scripture. What in it could we trust, if such plain language doesn’t mean what it says? Moreover, extolling God for scenarios that are not true is dishonest, misleading others about the truth. Furthermore, inspiring belief in falsehood is what we expect from prophets of Satan, not God. Therefore, David’s claim of being restored to life in an After Death Experience proves postmortem salvation is taught in scripture.

 

[electedbyHim]

Are people really teaching this?

Salvation after death?

 

[Alfred Persson]

Are people really teaching this?

Salvation after death?

It was the "orthodox Christian" belief in 2nd century Jerusalem:

Clement of Alexandria (150–215) Christian teacher at Alexandria who spent his twilight years with his friend Alexander when he became bishop of Jerusalem, had this to say about souls in Hades:

So I think it is demonstrated that God (being good) and the Lord (being powerful) both save with a righteousness and equality that extends to all who turn to God, whether here or elsewhere. For it is not here alone that the active power of God is present. Rather, it is everywhere and is always at work.… For it is not right that those persons [who died before Christ] should be condemned without trial, and that those alone who lived after His coming should have the advantage of the divine righteousness. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, EE Eastern), 2.491. Dead, Intermediate State of The. (1998). In D. W. Bercot (Ed.), A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More than 700 Topics Discussed by the Early Church Fathers (p. 192). Hendrickson Publishers.

Centuries later it became distorted, morphed into the abomination called Purgatory by Catholics. Rightly rejected by the reformers, who unfortunately didn't return to apostolic beliefs about those who died without Christ.

 

[hawkman]

A Psalm of David. A song at the dedication of the temple.

A song Alfred Persson .

“Sacred Songs Sung to Musical accompaniment”

 

[Alfred Persson]

A song Alfred Persson .

“Sacred Songs Sung to Musical accompaniment”

You dismiss the Prophet's Psalm as a mere song? Peter, by Holy Spirit calls King David a prophet, his Psalm prophecy:

29 "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
30 "Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,
31 "he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.
32 "This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. (Acts 2:29-32 NKJ)

Why not dredge up the usual eisegetical nonsense hurled at my posts, so I can enjoy proving how wrong it remains by the Scriptures.

 

[hawkman]

3 O LORD, you have brought up my soul from Sheol (07585 שְׁאוֹל she’owl); you restored me to life (02421 חָיַה chayah) from among those who go down to the pit (0953 בּוֹר bowr).

KJV , Thou hast kept me alive . No ADE .

3O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

 

[Alfred Persson]

KJV , Thou hast kept me alive . No ADE .

3O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

God kept David "spiritually alive" by saving Him from the "pit" of destruction, from "dying the death" of the wicked.

It is required we look for truth in the prophetic word a casual careless reading does not reveal.

Jesus also quotes David's words as prophecy:

1. Psalm 22:1 - In Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34, Jesus quotes Psalm 22:1 on the cross: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" This Psalm is seen as a prophetic depiction of the suffering of the Messiah.
2. Psalm 110:1 - In Matthew 22:44, Mark 12:36, and Luke 20:42-43, Jesus refers to Psalm 110:1: "The Lord said to my Lord, 'Sit at my right hand, until I put your enemies under your feet.'" Jesus uses this to demonstrate His divinity and authority, showing that David spoke of the Messiah's exaltation.
3. Psalm 118:22-23 - In Matthew 21:42, Mark 12:10-11, and Luke 20:17, Jesus quotes Psalm 118:22-23: "The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone." He uses this to describe how He, the Messiah, was rejected by the religious leaders yet chosen by God as the foundation.
4. Psalm 69:9 - In John 2:17, after Jesus cleanses the temple, His disciples remember Psalm 69:9: "Zeal for your house will consume me," viewing it as prophetic of Jesus' actions and fervor for God's house.

 

[hawkman]

It was the "orthodox Christian" belief in 2nd century Jerusalem:

Clement of Alexandria (150–215) Christian teacher at Alexandria who spent his twilight years with his friend Alexander when he became bishop of Jerusalem, had this to say about souls in Hades:

So I think it is demonstrated that God (being good) and the Lord (being powerful) both save with a righteousness and equality that extends to all who turn to God, whether here or elsewhere. For it is not here alone that the active power of God is present. Rather, it is everywhere and is always at work.… For it is not right that those persons [who died before Christ] should be condemned without trial, and that those alone who lived after His coming should have the advantage of the divine righteousness. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, EE Eastern), 2.491. Dead, Intermediate State of The. (1998). In D. W. Bercot (Ed.), A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More than 700 Topics Discussed by the Early Church Fathers (p. 192). Hendrickson Publishers.

Centuries later it became distorted, morphed into the abomination called Purgatory by Catholics. Rightly rejected by the reformers, who unfortunately didn't return to apostolic beliefs about those who died without Christ.

I trust God will do what is right with the people that did not have a chance at salvation . It is up to God , out of my hands . Do you trust God Alfred Persson ?

And I will NOT speculate on postmortem salvation because I can not find ANY reason to do so .

 

[Free]

This is not an apologetics topic, Alfred Persson. This has nothing to do with defending the faith.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I trust God will do what is right with the people that did not have a chance at salvation . It is up to God , out of my hands . Do you trust God Alfred Persson ?

And I will NOT speculate on postmortem salvation because I can not find ANY reason to do so .

Who cares about what you trust.

Christians care "what saith scripture". Its plainly taught a judgment occurs after someone unsaved dies. Then its determined if the ransom Christ paid will be applied to the sinner. All approved then eagerly wait for Christ's second coming, for salvation from hell:

22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.
23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another--
26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:22-28 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

This is not an apologetics topic, Alfred Persson. This has nothing to do with defending the faith.

God is blasphemed around the world because Protestants refuse to heed the scriptures.

Therefore, its should be at the center of apologetics. Someone must correct the record, purge unscriptural tradition that no one really believes anyway:

If they really believed those who die unsaved will be tormented in hell forever, they wouldn't cease warning everyone 24/7 about hell. Instead, no one preaches it. Everyone avoids it.

AND those who claim to believe it fabricate various unscriptural ways around it! Making unscriptural exceptions for "good people of other religions" etc.

There is no salvation apart from Christ, ever.

"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12 NKJ)

I am defending the faith of the apostles, not your novelties. True apologetics:

Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. (Jude 1:3 NKJ)

 

[Free]

God is blasphemed around the world because Protestants refuse to heed the scriptures.

Therefore, its should be at the center of apologetics. Someone must correct the record, purge unscriptural tradition that no one really believes anyway, and those who claim to believe it continually fabricate unscriptural ways around it.

There is little, if anything, to your claim. That one theologian stated "For it is not right that those persons [who died before Christ] should be condemned without trial, and that those alone who lived after His coming should have the advantage of the divine righteousness," does not make this orthodox belief. It doesn't even make it true.

God will deal justly with all those who died prior to Christ and all those who have died since without having heard of Christ.

Consider what Paul states:

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. (ESV)

And, consider what Jesus states:

Luk 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.
Luk 12:48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more. (ESV)

And, then finally, what the writer of Hebrews states:

Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, (ESV)

 

[Alfred Persson]

There is little, if anything, to your claim. That one theologian stated "For it is not right that those persons [who died before Christ] should be condemned without trial, and that those alone who lived after His coming should have the advantage of the divine righteousness," does not make this orthodox belief. It doesn't even make it true.

God will deal justly with all those who died prior to Christ and all those who have died since without having heard of Christ.

Consider what Paul states:

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. (ESV)

And, consider what Jesus states:

Luk 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.
Luk 12:48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more. (ESV)

And, then finally, what the writer of Hebrews states:

Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, (ESV)

Incorrect. If God can save apart from Christ there was no reason to sacrifice His Only Son, He could have put everyone in that other "system".

None of the scriptures you cite says God will save people apart from Christ. In fact, you seem to be condemning everyone who died without Christ because they couldn't learn the gospel by studying creation.

Well, NO ONE learns the gospel of Christ by studying creation. We learn by reading the Bible.

And you quoted Hebrews 9:27 out of context.

"What saith scripture?" A judgment occurs after someone unsaved dies. Then its determined if the ransom Christ paid will be applied to the sinner. All approved then eagerly wait for Christ's second coming, for salvation from hell:

22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.
23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another--
26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:22-28 NKJ)

 

[Free]

Incorrect. If God can save apart from Christ there was no reason to sacrifice His Only Son, He could have put everyone in that other "system".

None of the scriptures you cite says God will save people apart from Christ. In fact, you seem to be condemning everyone who died without Christ because they couldn't learn the gospel by studying creation.

Well, NO ONE learns the gospel of Christ by studying creation. We learn by reading the Bible.

You seem to have completely misunderstood what I was saying. In no way whatsoever am I saying that anyone can be saved apart from Christ. I am saying that it strongly appears that those who die without Christ remain without Christ. Then comes judgement, where they will be judged as unrighteous.

And you quoted Hebrews 9:27 out of context.


"What saith scripture?" A judgment occurs after someone unsaved dies. Then its determined if the ransom Christ paid will be applied to the sinner. All approved then eagerly wait for Christ's second coming, for salvation from hell:

22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.
23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another--
26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:22-28 NKJ)

How is it out of context? You simply quoting Scripture without any explanation. Heb 9:27 is quite clear in what it is saying. Verse 28 reaffirms what verse 27 states, by stating that since Christ already died once for sins, his return will only be for those who "eagerly wait for Him," that is, those who are saved. He will not be saving anyone at that time because his return is "apart from sin."

This is a little clearer:

Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. (ESV)

Maybe you are misunderstanding what is meany by "save those who are eagerly waiting for him." By definition, those who eagerly wait for Christ are those who are already justified. What this is speaking about is the completion of salvation, which is glorification. Salvation is given in Scripture as a past event (justification), an ongoing process (sanctification), and a future event (glorification). Clearly there is a chronological order here, a process. One cannot be finally and completely saved (glorified) if they have not already, prior to death, been justified.

 

[Alfred Persson]

You seem to have completely misunderstood what I was saying. In no way whatsoever am I saying that anyone can be saved apart from Christ. I am saying that it strongly appears that those who die without Christ remain without Christ. Then comes judgement, where they will be judged as unrighteous.

Well, given that means many of your relatives and friends, coworkers etc., are condemned. You must be warning them 24/7, never ceasing. And we should find many posts of you warning everyone here.

Where are those posts? I don't recall you posting anything like that. Why, if you REALLY believe it?

To illustrate. You attend the funeral of an unsaved person. As someone who knows he is condemned as unrighteous, you hasten to the grieving relatives, mother and father and quickly warn them "the same hell is waiting for YOU, unless you believe in Christ now before you die!

Or YOU will "die the death of the wicked" just like their son or daughter or unsaved friend.

That is what you do, without fail, given your heartfelt belief all the unsaved who die are condemned forever.

Everyone claiming all who die without Christ are eternally judged unrighteous, are under obligation to warn everyone, not leave anyone out. Its that serious:

18 "When I say to the wicked,`You shall surely die,' and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, that same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. (Ezek. 3:18 NKJ)

 

[Free]

Well, given that means many of your relatives and friends, coworkers etc., are condemned. You must be warning them 24/7, never ceasing. And we should find many posts of you warning everyone here.

Where are those posts? I don't recall you posting anything like that. Why, if you REALLY believe it?

Yes, I believe that everyone who dies without Christ is condemned, and so everyone should be warning people and praying for them. You don't recall me posting anything like that because we generally don't post in the same threads, but I have done so several times. Not that it matters, since your argument is fallacious and an avoidance of what I posted.

Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (ESV)

Whoever does not put their faith and trust in Christ, believing him to be who he said he was, prior to death "is condemned already"--"it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment."

 

[Alfred Persson]

Yes, I believe that everyone who dies without Christ is condemned, and so everyone should be warning people and praying for them. You don't recall me posting anything like that because we generally don't post in the same threads, but I have done so several times. Not that it matters, since your argument is fallacious and an avoidance of what I posted.

Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (ESV)

Whoever does not put their faith and trust in Christ, believing him to be who he said he was, prior to death "is condemned already"--"it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment."

Prove one cannot hear the gospel and believe after death. Christ doesn't agree:

25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. (Jn. 5:25 NKJ)

Compare:

5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:5-6 NKJ)

Who are these "eagerly waiting" for Christ's "second coming" after they died and went through a judgment:

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

God is blasphemed throughout the earth because of Protestants and their novel (unknown to the apostles) doctrines about hell. It is irrelevant immaterial and incompetent they inherited much of it from catholics. Who are they? Does God speak through them?

Its time to return to the doctrine of the apostles. Discard unscriptural and dark beliefs about God and how He will judge the earth.

To make things worse, they don't act like they believe the lies they speak, they only disparage all who refuse to believe them.

I'm sure everyone can recite the denominations that tell parents and friends during funerals: "they also will go to hell and be condemned with the unrighteous just like the deceased, if they also die unbelieving."

Yeah, we see that happen all the time among Protestants, don't we?

Their disbelief speaks louder than their empty words. Yet they continue to cling to what abhors them, offends their God given sense of justice, mercy and love. Even burning at the stake those who objected. Incredible hypocrisy. We can be certain none of this goes unseen by God Almighty.

 

[Alfred Persson]

If the Apologists here aren't up to the task, I suggest you send the text of my post to the "greats", to list a few.

• William Lane Craig (b. 1949): A philosopher and theologian known for his work in the philosophy of religion, debates on the existence of God, and founder of Reasonable Faith, an organization dedicated to providing a Christian perspective on major world issues.
• Tim Keller (b. 1950): A pastor, theologian, and author known for his work in urban ministry and apologetics through Redeemer Presbyterian Church and City to City, an organization focused on church planting.
• Greg Koukl (b. 1950): Founder of Stand to Reason, Koukl focuses on equipping Christians to think more clearly about their faith and engage others with wisdom and grace.
• Sean McDowell (b. 1977): An author, speaker, and associate professor of Christian apologetics at Biola University, McDowell focuses on equipping young people to defend their faith.

GotQuestions.org should be alerted to my direct rebuttal of their misconceptions:

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Discuss this article at EndTimeNewsForum.net Nowhere does the Bible teach that we will have a second chance to receive Christ and be saved after we die. This is one reason why the Bible says, “I tell you, now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation” (2 Corinthians 6:2). I pray

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[Alfred Persson]

Never mind. I quit this board. Suppressing my "apologetic post" putting it in this form, is the last straw. Any who want to argue with me can do so at my forum:

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