I hate these people......

[Dakota]

ugh, its unfortunatly hard to belive in Jesus with people going around saying he didn't fulfill prophicy. Help me with all of these please!

It is important to understand why Jews don't believe in Jesus. The purpose is not to disparage other religions, but rather to clarify the Jewish position. The more data that's available, the better-informed choices people can make about their spiritual path.

Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah because:

1) Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.

2) Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah.

3) Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations.

4) Jewish belief is based on national revelation.

At the end of this article, we will examine these additional topics:

5) Christianity contradicts Jewish theology

6) Jews and Gentiles

7) Bringing the Messiah

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1) JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2) JESUS DID NOT EMBODY THE PERSONAL QUALIFICATIONS OF MESSIAH

A. MESSIAH AS PROPHET

Jesus was not a prophet. Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry. During the time of Ezra (circa 300 BCE), when the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets -- Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.

Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended.

B. DESCENDENT OF DAVID

The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David!

C. TORAH OBSERVANCE

The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)

Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He does not observe Shabbat!"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3) MISTRANSLATED VERSES "REFERRING" TO JESUS

Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text -- which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.

A. VIRGIN BIRTH

The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

B. CRUCIFIXION

The verse in Psalms 22:17 reads: "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet." The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically similar to the word "gouged." Thus Christianity reads the verse as a reference to crucifixion: "They pierced my hands and feet."

C. SUFFERING SERVANT

Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the "suffering servant."

In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit. The Torah is filled with examples of the Jewish nation referred to with a singular pronoun.

Ironically, Isaiah's prophecies of persecution refer in part to the 11th century when Jews were tortured and killed by Crusaders who acted in the name of Jesus.

From where did these mistranslations stem? St. Gregory, 4th century Bishop of Nanianzus, wrote: "A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4) JEWISH BELIEF IS BASED SOLELY ON NATIONAL REVELATION

Of the 15,000 religions in human history, only Judaism bases its belief on national revelation -- i.e. God speaking to the entire nation. If God is going to start a religion, it makes sense He'll tell everyone, not just one person.

Judaism, unique among all of the world's major religions, does not rely on "claims of miracles" as the basis for its religion. In fact, the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of "miracles" to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah (Deut. 13:4).

Maimonides states (Foundations of Torah, ch. 8):

The Jews did not believe in Moses, our teacher, because of the miracles he performed. Whenever anyone's belief is based on seeing miracles, he has lingering doubts, because it is possible the miracles were performed through magic or sorcery. All of the miracles performed by Moses in the desert were because they were necessary, and not as proof of his prophecy.
What then was the basis of [Jewish] belief? The Revelation at Mount Sinai, which we saw with our own eyes and heard with our own ears, not dependent on the testimony of others... as it says, "Face to face, God spoke with you..." The Torah also states: "God did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us -- who are all here alive today." (Deut. 5:3)


Judaism is not miracles. It is the personal eyewitness experience of every man, woman and child, standing at Mount Sinai 3,300 years ago.

See "Did God Speak at Mount Sinai" for further reading.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

5) CHRISTIANITY CONTRADICTS JEWISH THEOLOGY

The following theological points apply primarily to the Roman Catholic Church, the largest Christian denomination.

A. GOD AS THREE?

The Catholic idea of Trinity breaks God into three separate beings: The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19).

Contrast this to the Shema, the basis of Jewish belief: "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE" (Deut. 6:4). Jews declare the Shema every day, while writing it on doorposts (Mezuzah), and binding it to the hand and head (Tefillin). This statement of God's One-ness is the first words a Jewish child is taught to say, and the last words uttered before a Jew dies.

In Jewish law, worship of a three-part god is considered idolatry -- one of the three cardinal sins that a Jew should rather give up his life than transgress. This explains why during the Inquisitions and throughout history, Jews gave up their lives rather than convert.

B. MAN AS GOD?

Roman Catholics believe that God came down to earth in human form, as Jesus said: "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).

Maimonides devotes most of the "Guide for the Perplexed" to the fundamental idea that God is incorporeal, meaning that He assumes no physical form. God is Eternal, above time. He is Infinite, beyond space. He cannot be born, and cannot die. Saying that God assumes human form makes God small, diminishing both His unity and His divinity. As the Torah says: "God is not a mortal" (Numbers 23:19).

Judaism says that the Messiah will be born of human parents, and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, and will not possess supernatural qualities. In fact, an individual is alive in every generation with the capacity to step into the role of the Messiah. (see Maimonides - Laws of Kings 11:3)

C. INTERMEDIARY FOR PRAYER?

The Catholic belief is that prayer must be directed through an intermediary -- i.e. confessing one's sins to a priest. Jesus himself is an intermediary, as Jesus said: "No man cometh unto the Father but by me."

In Judaism, prayer is a totally private matter, between each individual and God. As the Bible says: "God is near to all who call unto Him" (Psalms 145:18). Further, the Ten Commandments state: "You shall have no other gods BEFORE ME," meaning that it is forbidden to set up a mediator between God and man. (see Maimonides - Laws of Idolatry ch. 1)

D. INVOLVEMENT IN THE PHYSICAL WORLD

Catholic doctrine often treats the physical world as an evil to be avoided. Mary, the holiest woman, is portrayed as a virgin. Priests and nuns are celibate. And monasteries are in remote, secluded locations.

By contrast, Judaism believes that God created the physical world not to frustrate us, but for our pleasure. Jewish spirituality comes through grappling with the mundane world in a way that uplifts and elevates. Sex in the proper context is one of the holiest acts we can perform.

The Talmud says if a person has the opportunity to taste a new fruit and refuses to do so, he will have to account for that in the World to Come. Jewish rabbinical schools teach how to live amidst the bustle of commercial activity. Jews don't retreat from life, we elevate it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

6) JEWS AND GENTILES

Judaism does not demand that everyone convert to the religion. The Torah of Moses is a truth for all humanity, whether Jewish or not. King Solomon asked God to heed the prayers of non-Jews who come to the Holy Temple (Kings I 8:41-43). The prophet Isaiah refers to the Temple as a "House for all nations."

The Temple service during Sukkot featured 70 bull offerings, corresponding to the 70 nations of the world. The Talmud says that if the Romans would have realized how much benefit they were getting from the Temple, they'd never have destroyed it.

Jews have never actively sought converts to Judaism because the Torah prescribes a righteous path for gentiles to follow, known as the "Seven Laws of Noah." Maimonides explains that any human being who faithfully observes these basic moral laws earns a proper place in heaven.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7) BRINGING THE MESSIAH

Maimonides states that the popularity of Christianity (and Islam) is part of God's plan to spread the ideals of Torah throughout the world. This moves society closer to a perfected state of morality and toward a greater understanding of God. All this is in preparation for the Messianic age.

Indeed, the world is in desperate need of Messianic redemption. War and pollution threaten our planet; ego and confusion erode family life. To the extent we are aware of the problems of society, is the extent we will yearn for redemption. As the Talmud says, one of the first questions a Jew is asked on Judgment Day is: "Did you yearn for the arrival of the Messiah?"

How can we hasten the coming of the Messiah? The best way is to love all humanity generously, to keep the mitzvot of the Torah (as best we can), and to encourage others to do so as well.

Despite the gloom, the world does seem headed toward redemption. One apparent sign is that the Jewish people have returned to the Land of Israel and made it bloom again. Additionally, a major movement is afoot of young Jews returning to Torah tradition.

The Messiah can come at any moment, and it all depends on our actions. God is ready when we are. For as King David says: "Redemption will come today -- if you hearken to His voice."



Part 2



The title "Christ," which was applied almost interchangeably with the name "Jesus" by Christians from the New Testament era onwards, comes from the Greek for "Messiah."

The Messiah is a Jewish hero-figure predicted by the Hebrew prophets to save the Jews and bring justice to the world.

Christians believe Jesus was and is this Messiah; Jews believe he is not and still await a future messiah. Presented below are basic outlines of the reasons given for both views.

Reasons for Jesus as Messiah (Christian Perspective)
Christian Argument
Jewish Counter-Argument
Jesus was born of a virgin. Matthew 1:22-23 fulfills Isaiah 7:14. "Nowhere does the Bible predict that the Messiah will be born to a virgin. In fact, virgins never give birth anywhere in the Bible. This idea is to be found only in pagan mythology. To the Jewish mind, the very idea that G-d would plant a seed in a woman is unnecessary and unnatural." (5, p.31)

"The Hebrew term in Isaiah “almah†which means a “young woman†is mistranslated as “virgin.†Honest Christian scholars now acknowledge that this is “a pious fraud†and now (see the new Protestant “Revised Standard Version†of the Bible) translate the word correctly." (5, p.33)
Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Matthew 2:4-6 fulfills Micah 5:2. Jesus was likely born in Nazareth - the Bethlehem story has no historical foundation.
Jesus was from the line of David. Luke 3 fulfills Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24; II Sam. 7:14; I Chr. 17:11-14, 22:9-10, 28:4-6. A tribal line cannot be passed on through adoption, so Jesus cannot be "son of David" through Joseph. A tribal line also does not pass through the mother, and even if it did, Mary was not descended of David through Solomon. (6, p.2)
Jesus' side was pierced on the cross. John 19:33-37 fulfills Zechariah 12:10.
Jesus was the Suffering Servant. John 12:37-38; Acts 8:30-35; 1 Peter 2:21-25 fulfill Isaiah 52-53. Isaiah 52-53 is referring to the people of Israel, not to the Messiah.
Jesus was God. John 8:58 fulfills Isaiah 9:6. "Nowhere does our Bible say that the Messiah would be a god or G-d-like. The very idea that G-d would take on human form is repulsive to Jews because it contradicts our concept of G-d as being above and beyond the limitations of the human body and situation. Jews believe that G-d alone is to be worshiped, not a being who is His creation, be he angel, saint, or even the Messiah himself." (5, p. 31)


Reasons against Jesus as Messiah (Jewish Perspective)
Jewish Argument
Christian Counter-Argument
The true Messiah is to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalemâ€â€but Jesus lived while the Temple was still standing. Jeremiah 33:18 Jesus will do this at the Second Coming.
The Messiah will reestablish Jewish religious law as the law of the land.
Jeremiah 33:15 Jesus will do this at the Second Coming.
The Messiah will save Israel." In the case of Jesus, the very opposite took place. Not long after his death, the Holy Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed, Jerusalem was laid to waste, and the Jews went into exile to begin a 1900 year long night of persecution,  largely at the hands of the followers of this self-styled Messiah!" (6) Jesus will do this at the Second Coming.
He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). Jesus will do this at the Second Coming.
The Messiah will return all exiles to their homeland. Isaiah 11:11-12
Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3
Hosea 3:4-5 Jesus will do this at the Second Coming.

Jewish response: The claim that Jesus will fulfill the Messianic prophesies when he returns does not give him any credibility for his "first" coming. The Bible never speaks about the Messiah returning after an initial appearance. The "second coming" theory is a desperate attempt to explain away Jesus’ failure. The Biblical passages which Christians are forced to regard as second coming don’t speak of someone returning, they have a "first coming" perspective. (6, p1)

 

[cyberjosh]

I can't tell whether the majority of your post is your arguement or your opponent's arguement so I will just address it as yours. You may correct me later if I am wrong.

Jesus was not a prophet. Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry. During the time of Ezra (circa 300 BCE), when the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets -- Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.

Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended.

Oh please. You clearly misunderstand the meaning of the word prophet. John the Baptist was a prophet. Prophet does not mean exclusively one who has revelation, visions, or premonitions about the future but it more primarily means one who is appointed to speak the word and revelation of God in the present time. King Saul even prophesied though he was no prophet. When Jesus talked to the Samaritan woman at the well she said, "Sir I percieve that you are a prophet." The people back then apparently understood the word better than you do.

The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David!

Oh yes, how devastating. Jesus was legally of the house of David and that is all he needs to establish his kingship.

"And Jesus began to say, as He taught in the temple, "How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David?

"David himself said in the Holy Spirit,
'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD,
"SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET."'

"David himself calls Him 'Lord'; so in what sense is He his son?" And the large crowd enjoyed listening to Him. " (Mark 12:35-37)

Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He does not observe Shabbat!"

Oh yes, lets trust the Pharisees judgement! They would even make God's priests guilty of sinning by serving him in the Temple.

"Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?" (Matthew 12:5)

"But some of the Pharisees said, "Why do you do what is not lawful on the Sabbath?"
And Jesus answering them said, "Have you not even read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him, how he entered the house of God, and took and ate the consecrated bread which is not lawful for any to eat except the priests alone, and gave it to his companions?"
And He was saying to them, "The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."" (Luke 6:2-5)

The Catholic belief is that prayer must be directed through an intermediary -- i.e. confessing one's sins to a priest. Jesus himself is an intermediary, as Jesus said: "No man cometh unto the Father but by me."

In Judaism, prayer is a totally private matter, between each individual and God. As the Bible says: "God is near to all who call unto Him" (Psalms 145:18). Further, the Ten Commandments state: "You shall have no other gods BEFORE ME," meaning that it is forbidden to set up a mediator between God and man. (see Maimonides - Laws of Idolatry ch. 1)

How horribly misapplied. When God came down on Mt. Sinai to speak with the people they were greatly afraid and spoke to Moses saying "You go and speak to God and tell us what he says, but let us not hear another word from God lest we die." Thus Moses became an intermediary for the people and even interceeded on their behalf several times and saved them from wholesale destruction from God's anger. Near Moses' death he prophesied that God would raise up another like him (prophet, leader, and intermediary) and Jesus fulfilled that prophecy. Jesus is our advocate and High Priest.


~Josh

 

[Vic C.]

Hi Dakota,

You addressed a lot here, so I will just address a few points at this time.

1) Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.

Some, but not all, not yet. :

2) Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah.

That can be refuted via the OT, but it would require a thread of it's own.

5) Christianity contradicts Jewish theology

Only misunderstandings and misinterpretations contradict. Most Christian theology expands and expounds on Jewish theology.

A. Build the Third Temple

Ezek 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

John 1:14 14 And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and of truth. (LITV)

Mat 26:61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.
John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
John 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
John 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

note; no need for a physical temple. A careful reading of Revelation reveals this.

B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel

Not yet.

C. Usher in an era of world peace,

Not yet.

D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One"

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

1 Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.

Not historical fact at all, considering history has not come to an end, yet. Remember, many prophecies are twofold, some partially fulfilled, some to be fulfilled in the future.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.

This is due to Jewish eschotology missing (didn't account for) two comings, though it is Spirit-inspired in OT scripture.

Jesus was not a prophet. Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry. During the time of Ezra (circa 300 BCE), when the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets -- Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.

This is innaccurate. All prophecy did was take a break. It's not the first time this has heppened. There was no prophecy for almost 400 years while the Israelites were in captivity in Egypt. John the Baptist was a prophet. Jesus, among other things, was a prophet.

The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet.

Jesus IS the Law personified. He IS forever.

Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He does not observe Shabbat!"

Jesus nevr contradicted the Torah. He never nullified the Commandments nor said they were no longer applicable. It appeared to the Pharisees that He violated the sabbath because they completely distorted Mosasic Law. Doing the work of God does not break Sabbath.

The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

I see no problem with this. I would assume any unmarried young woman at the age of 13 or 14 would be a virgin.

Judaism, unique among all of the world's major religions, does not rely on "claims of miracles" as the basis for its religion. In fact, the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of "miracles" to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah (Deut. 13:4).

Mark 8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.

Luke 11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.

John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

1 Cor 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

 

[Packrat]

Could anyone link me to passages that state that God would preserve or raise up forever a ruler in the line of David? Such as the conditional statement which God said there would always be a ruler on David's throne in Judah if they obeyed God? There are a couple or a few of these passages I think. I'm not looking necessarily for promises from God of a ruler in David's line that are conditional, but any that you can find for me. It would be greatly appreciated if anyone could find them for me. No luck so far. :-?

 

[Imagican]

Pack,

If you are trying to verify or nullify the statements made above, don't waste your time.

The Jews do NOT read the Holy Bible. They rely, instead on the first five books of Moses, (Torah), and the Talmud, a collection of things written by lesser prophets over the thousands of years since Moses. They 'claim' that the Talmud is ORAL history that was not 'written down' at the time of Moses. But basically this is MOSTLY wishful thinking on their part and manipulation by the religious order in order to 'alter' things on their behalf.
In the Talmud they 'did away' with much of that which was NOT beneficial to their standards and inserted things that were. Jubilee is but ONE example of their 'doing away' with that which they didn't 'agree with'. In order to continue to 'gain wealth' they simply 'did away' with jubilee in order to continue to receive payment of debts that God said were nullified every seven years.

So, you would be 'hard pressed' to 'find' much of what Judaism is 'based on' through the Holy Bible.

MEC

 

[stranger]

Hi Dakota,


Interesting article about why Jews don't believe Jesus is the Messiah. My initial thought was drawn to the Apostles comment that a hardening has come upon Israel until the full number of gentiles come in. So a veil extends over the Jews whenever the law is read.

There is also a small but growing Messianic church from (a remnant seed). I have also heard many Jews believe but are fearful at the present time about declaring their belief openly.

Also Messianic expectations of individuals can be wrong not to mention what the expectation of a nation is. More likely I think the true national messianic expectation will be something that gains momentum as it is opposed even by the majority of Jews who will, because of a change of circumstances, be forced to reevaluate. . . Even the holocaust did not have this affect for the most part - so what will it take to change the heart of a Jew? The full number of gentiles coming in?

You wrote:

2) JESUS DID NOT EMBODY THE PERSONAL QUALIFICATIONS OF MESSIAH

A. MESSIAH AS PROPHET

Jesus was not a prophet. Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry. During the time of Ezra (circa 300 BCE), when the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets -- Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.

Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended.

The notion that all prophesy has to be written down or is intended by God to be written down and therefore relevant to the whole world - I think needs to be examined. eg. Prophets were mentioned in the old testament eg. schools of prophets - but we have know little of what they did and nothing of what they said.

So I think it is an assumption that all prophesy ceased for 350 years after Malachi.

blessings: stranger

 

[Packrat]

Pack,

If you are trying to verify or nullify the statements made above, don't waste your time.

The Jews do NOT read the Holy Bible. They rely, instead on the first five books of Moses, (Torah), and the Talmud, a collection of things written by lesser prophets over the thousands of years since Moses. They 'claim' that the Talmud is ORAL history that was not 'written down' at the time of Moses. But basically this is MOSTLY wishful thinking on their part and manipulation by the religious order in order to 'alter' things on their behalf.
In the Talmud they 'did away' with much of that which was NOT beneficial to their standards and inserted things that were. Jubilee is but ONE example of their 'doing away' with that which they didn't 'agree with'. In order to continue to 'gain wealth' they simply 'did away' with jubilee in order to continue to receive payment of debts that God said were nullified every seven years.

So, you would be 'hard pressed' to 'find' much of what Judaism is 'based on' through the Holy Bible.

MEC

Verify or nullify what statements? Which ones? What? Who? I just wanted to know the references to the passages I referred to. If I found anything interesting or worth mentioning, then I might post it up. I didn't read the OP's post in full so I wouldn't know if I wanted to verify or nullify his/her statements. So my original question remains if anyone's willing to help out here:

Could anyone link me to passages that state that God would preserve or raise up forever a ruler in the line of David? Such as the conditional statement which God said there would always be a ruler on David's throne in Judah if they obeyed God? There are a couple or a few of these passages I think. I'm not looking necessarily for promises from God of a ruler in David's line that are conditional, but any that you can find for me.

 

[TanNinety]

Packrat, Jeremiah 33:20-21 ?

 

[Packrat]

Packrat, Jeremiah 33:20-21 ?

TanNinety, that's pretty much what I was looking for. Thanks. I know it's not every passage that refers to God's covenant with David, but it's at least one and maybe one of the major ones I was looking for. What I had in mind was this:

1. Have we somehow broken God's covenant with the day and the night so that they no longer come at their appointed time? If so, how?

2. Was not David the king of Judah and not the king of Israel? See 2 Samuel 2:4, 10.

3. Isn't Christ a descendant of David through Mary (biologically) and Joseph (legally)? See Matthew 1:1-17 and Luke 3:23-38.

4. Since there were two kingdoms (Israel and Judah), why is modern-day Israel called 'Israel' and not 'Judah'? If it was because of the patriarch Jacob (ie. Israel), then is Israel really Judah or is it Israel or is it just a name now?

5. Is there a descendant of David sitting on the 'throne' in Israel right now? If not, then do Jews who deny Jesus believe that we have somehow altered God's covenant with the day and the night, or do they believe that there are still descendants in David's line (with the exception of Jesus) and that Israel will return to a monarchy and that Israel's name will be changed to Judah or that Judah will rise up anonymously and then the supposed Messiah (which has not yet come in their opinion and therefore is not yet a king in David's line - meaning there would be gaps) will reign over that Judah (over all people, so presumably over Judah too)?

That's what they'd have to believe in my opinion if they didn't consider God to be a liar and since they don't believe that Jesus is the living king and Messiah in David's line. Any thoughts and further references? They would be appreciated.

 

[Packrat]

No further thoughts or insight? uppydogeyes:

By the way, when was the book of Jeremiah written? Was there a king in David's line on the throne in Judah always after this promise was made by God even up until the time of Christ (even if it was simply a regent-type king or a puppet king with a higher foreign king/emperor over him but was still from the line of David)?

 

[TanNinety]

1. Have we somehow broken God's covenant with the day and the night so that they no longer come at their appointed time? If so, how?

Makes you go hmmmm? Doesn’t it. How can anyone break the covenant of the night and day no longer coming at their appointed time? If that didn’t happen how can God break His promise that He made that as long as the day and night are not moved there will be a descendant of David always in reign.

I will NOT give you a very popular answer, but however a probable one.

Jeremiah 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise,
And the law of the Lord is with us'?
Look, the false pen of the scribe certainly works falsehood.

The scribes had itchy hands and I believe they added generously to the word of God. We cannot deny what Jeremiah 8:8 says that the scribes held a false pen and worked falsehood.

Knowing now that the scribes had a lying pen couldn’t they have manipulated the work of Jeremiah to include this promise? If the promise was indeed made by God, I believe there would now be a king who is a descendant of David in rule today because no one has managed to changed the appointed times of day and the night. I think this promise was not made by God but was later added to Jeremiah's words.

But that means you have to believe that God would let a false pen etch and sketch some parts of the bible, which will be a shock for the ‘bible is infallible’ believers. I on the other hand do not believe a book to be the infallible word of God, but Yashuah, the Son of God only to be the infallible Word of God. So I have no problem with the above explanation. Told ya it wasn’t going to be a popular answer but only a probable one.

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

Believe me, Christ has fullfilled all or will fullfill all necessary requirements of the Law, and prophecies, in time. Its the same one minus all the crap they tack on, which didn't come from the torah or bible!

 

[Packrat]

Makes you go hmmmm? Doesn’t it. How can anyone break the covenant of the night and day no longer coming at their appointed time? If that didn’t happen how can God break His promise that He made that as long as the day and night are not moved there will be a descendant of David always in reign.

I will NOT give you a very popular answer, but however a probable one.

Jeremiah 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise,
And the law of the Lord is with us'?
Look, the false pen of the scribe certainly works falsehood.

The scribes had itchy hands and I believe they added generously to the word of God. We cannot deny what Jeremiah 8:8 says that the scribes held a false pen and worked falsehood.

Knowing now that the scribes had a lying pen couldn’t they have manipulated the work of Jeremiah to include this promise? If the promise was indeed made by God, I believe there would now be a king who is a descendant of David in rule today because no one has managed to changed the appointed times of day and the night. I think this promise was not made by God but was later added to Jeremiah's words.

But that means you have to believe that God would let a false pen etch and sketch some parts of the bible, which will be a shock for the ‘bible is infallible’ believers. I on the other hand do not believe a book to be the infallible word of God, but Yashuah, the Son of God only to be the infallible Word of God. So I have no problem with the above explanation. Told ya it wasn’t going to be a popular answer but only a probable one.

This passage doesn't particularly bother me. In the passage from Jeremiah, the NIV states in the end: ...can be broken and David will no longer have a descendant to reign on his throne. That says to me that if God's covenant was broken, then David would no longer have a descendant to reign on his throne. Note that it does not say that David will no longer have a descendant reigning on his throne. I believe that Christ is that descendant of David. Christ is not yet reigning on David's throne, but he is certainly a descendant of David's that quite possibly may reign on David's throne.

Even in Young's Literal Translation, it reads: So that he hath not a son reigning on his throne... Here it reads reigning, but it also states son which could be referring to Solomon. I do think that the word 'son' was used for 'descendant' though in Hebrew. I also have heard that the tense of the verb in Hebrew is dependant on the context the verb-word is in. If the Scriptures state that 'we <being verb> resurrected in the future', then we can translate <being verb> to not 'am', 'is', 'are', or 'was', but 'will be'. But I've been told that Hebrew does not make multiple distinctions in the tense of verbs such as English does, so why not have every verb in the present tense in a literal translation if that is the tense by default? At any rate, I do not know, myself. I've studied Hebrew, but I haven't studied tenses of verbs.

This passage, though, seems like it would only pose a threat to those who deny Jesus - the son of David - as the Messiah. That is, unless, my interpretation of it is in error.

And to answer my question about if there was a king in David's line ever after this passage, there was always a king in David's line as the geneaologies in Matthew 1:1-17 and Luke 3:23-38 claim. If there were gaps in David's line, then the genealogies would have to be fabricated.

Some of my questions left to answer are: 1. was there a king in David's line always reigning (even through Roman control such as Herod) up until the time of Christ? 2. Was Herod a king in David's line?

 

[Packrat]

This passage, though, seems like it would only pose a threat to those who deny Jesus - the son of David - as the Messiah. That is, unless, my interpretation of it is in error.

Hmm. I see my interpretation of it may have been in error. If God's covenant is broken, then David will no longer have a descendant to reign on his throne. I really don't know if this particular translation of the passage poses any threat to unbelieving Jews. There are still likely descendants of David floating around out there. :-D

But if the literal translation of Young's Literal is to be interpreted as reigning, then it might just pose a threat to both believers in Jesus and unbelievers. I doubt that a descendant of David's is still reigning on his throne. : But perhaps 'reigning on his throne' is meant to be a symbol of royalty and kingship. In other words, "there would no longer be a descendant of David's who would be king" might be a more accurate interpretation. In that case, I'd have to say that Christ is that descendant and king. I don't think that Israel right now has a monarchy or has a descendant of David reigning on his throne. In that case, there would be gaps in the kingship in David's line if Christ was not the Messiah and rightful king in David's line. Any thoughts as to what 'reigning on his throne' means? Does it mean that literally or as a symbol of royal kingship?

 

[Packrat]

I found another verse: Genesis 49:10. Very interesting stuff. So when Christ came, did the 'sceptre' depart from Judah? If so, was it at his birth or was it afterward?

 

[Guest]

If I may offer a suggestion to those who are attempting to witness to Jewish people - please, please, please use there "Bible" for references.

A Jewish Bible numbers the passages differently.

 

[tim-from-pa]

These Messianic promises and prophesies are all very interesting and very detailed so I do not have the time or space at the moment to comment on all of them. But as for Jesus not fulfilling all of the promises, that is true. But that is why there is going to be a Second Coming and reign from the throne of David here on this earth. Jesus did not fulfill all the promises at his first coming and that's what the Jews see. To a degree, they are right but unbeknownst to them the promises did not have to be fulfilled at once.

As for a descendant of David always ruling, that is why I take a "British-Israel" stance (although I am not officially associated with them). The Jews are really basically 2 tribes, not 12. The other ten were "lost" to history (but not to God) and these people are the ones all through the OT prophets that would migrate, become many nations, and embrace Christianity. In other words, I am saying that many of the Christian nations of today are both the physical and spiritual seed of Abraham. The bible indicates that Israelites would become unaware that they had Abraham as father and think they were Gentiles along with the rest of the Gentile world.

The British Monarchy is descended from King David, as is much of other European royalty. This then would be the fulfillment after the "fall" of the throne in Judah of the prophecy Jeremiah 33:17. The ruler was to become over the house of Israel (not Judah, or the Jews). The house of Israel is different than the Jews. However, the story involving the migration of the royal line (to correspond with the migrations of Israel) is a complex one that I will not get into here. In other words, the royal line went from ruling in Judah over to "Gentile" nations that would become Christian and indeed are really the seed of Abraham.

When modern day Christians do not see this, or believe it, or for that matter poke fun at the evidence to all this, they inadvertently harden the Jew more by "spiritualizing" all these promises instead. To the Jew, these were very real, literal, and worldly prophesies. There are Christians all over this board that do not agree with the literal interpretation and indeed, some think Christ already returned and totally "Gentilize" the Jewish belief thereby alienating them more.