I have a critical question for you

[John Zain]

“Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey,
you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether
(slaves) of sin leading to death, OR
(slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness?†(Romans 6:16)

Were you aware of the above?

Paul says there are ONLY 2 CHOICES:
(1) be a slave of sin … leading to spiritual death
or
(2) be a slave of obedience … leading to righteousness

He recommends (2) because it leads to holiness …
“present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.†(Romans 6:19)

It is claimed that Paul wrote Hebrews as well …
“Pursue … holiness, without which no one will see the Lord†(Hebrews 12:14)

Paul refrained from including what is in parentheses …
“(IF you have) become slaves of God,
you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.†(Romans 6:22)

Paul is instructing the Christians in Rome:
• become slaves of obedience … leading to righteousness
• become slaves of righteousness … leading to holiness
• become slaves of God … leading to holiness, which results in everlasting life

Note: Paul warns that sinning leads to eternal death in Romans 6:16, 6:21, 6:23.

Please choose one of the following:
סּ I am a slave of God, and of obedience, and of righteousness
סּ I am a slave of sin
סּ I am neither of the above

Note: If you do not make any choice, or if you choose #3, you will be included in #2.

 

[Sparkey]

"To whom you present yourself..."​

It's a struggle for me. Yes, I do present myself to God yet there are times when I have, during unguarded moments, presented myself to sin. There are also times when I have purposed within myself to continue sinning and have at those times asked God, "What does this matter?" then went on to in self justification saying, "Nobody was hurt, right."

Still, I do observe myself doing things that I don't like. I've asked the Lord that I might be made to be holy, that I might be sanctified, and have asked in His Name. Paul spoke of a 'thorn in his flesh' that he sought God over three times and yet confessed that he did not consider himself to have crossed the finish line. He admonishes that we run the race with the view toward crossing the line and that we think about how hard athletes train and compete for perishable, and I'd say, false glory.

So where does this leave me in the 1, 2, 3? Shall I quit now or should I not continue through this day, knowing that the Grace of God is renewed upon me daily, hoping for the finish product to have at some point been worked sufficiently into me such that I not only cast out all my false gods from my house, but spit after them in disgust.

The reality of God making us holy is truly amazing! Listen to how John puts it: "Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2).

 

[John Zain]

It's a struggle for me. Yes, I do present myself to God yet there are times when I have, during unguarded moments, presented myself to sin.

Greetings, my brother ...

IMO, the victory of being an overcomer is by following this passage ...

1 John 1:
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.


God's gift of +++++++++++ <--------- slave of ------------->
grace-faith > co-operation > God > obedience > righteousness > holiness > salvation
Eph 2:8-9 ++++ several +++ <------------------Romans 6:15-23 -------------------->


Romans 6:15-23 If you are a slave of God & obedience & righteousness ...
----------------- you will NOT be a slave of sin, which leads to eternal death!

 

[Sparkey]

Part of what I notice is that my conscience (which once was seared) is now much more sensitive. Some may call that a sanctification process? I don't know the best words to describe it but regarding sin, I used to readily make and accept any old excuse for myself, and wore my tattered rags of self-right-ness quite proudly. I am certain that I still do, at least in certain areas but trust God to continue the work He has started in me.

These days? I am pricked in my conscience much more readily and, by God's grace, more able, more equipped than I had understood before, in the battle against sin.

The import and the understanding of what you speak of, that we are indeed slave to those to whom we present our members to - becomes illuminated to a greater extent as one draws nigh unto the Holy One. Stating the obvious now, the light is brighter as we get closer, and we also have less understanding as we turn back to the old ways.

One thing that makes sin so sinful is that unconfessed and unrepented sin includes guilt --even if I don't acknowledge it --so that my ability to freely run into the throne-room as a child might come to his loving Father even to pray for others --is impeded and I go in with a hang-dog expression and not one of pure joy and elation in my spirit before Him. Sin necessarily weakens us and we need each other.

 

[John Zain]

Part of what I notice is that my conscience (which once was seared) is now much more sensitive. Some may call that a sanctification process?

IMO, the sanctification process is primarily about being led by the Spirit in overcoming sin.
NO ONE who is a habitual sinner will see heaven!
At the time of one's death, one must have co-operated with God in overcoming sin.

 

[Sparkey]

Agreed, maybe. What about my dad? He had anger problems (habitual sin) that were not overcome well until he was around 60 years old. I too have had anger problems and can not say they are ultimately overcome (and they are indeed habitual, involving unexpressed thoughts) but there was significant change in me around the age of 40 or so, I'm 60 now. And finally, what about my son, who has realized significant change from his intense anger problems that began in childhood and continued until around the age of 20.

I sometimes wonder about the absolute and unqualified statements that are made regarding God's judgment and am glad of the fact that unto Jesus alone is given that ultimate authority. Good thing I am not your king, right, John? I might say, "Lop off his head" and then later regret it. Just kidding, I know you're saved from sin.

 

[clark thompson]

Jesus set the example by beng a servant to us. He is worthy of us being slaves to Him.

 

[John Zain]

Sparrowhawke,

3 generations of (greater than normal) anger problems
... you all had (have?) a demon of anger.

Satan and his demons COMPEL people to continue in their weakness.
This is why you say the anger is habitual ... very difficult to overcome.

I suggest you search out a deliverance ministry in your area.
A small team of BACs will be successful in driving out this demon.

The Lord loves to be praised ... so continue to thank Him for your future deliverance!
This is all part of being a true believer ... overcoming Satan!
UNBELIEF in God's word and in His promises (which are for today) is a killer!

Good Luck!

 

[Sparkey]

Thanks for the advice but you might not have noticed that I said there were significant changes in our lives. What I did not say rightly is that it was not due to our efforts alone and to God belongs the glory.

My testimony was (in my opinion) on topic and I was responding to the third option of the choices you've presented in your first post:

Please choose one of the following:
סּ I am a slave of God, and of obedience, and of righteousness
סּ I am a slave of sin
סּ I am neither of the above

How about I have been a slave of sin, have presented my members to masters other than God and now experience the result of His (our Father in heaven's) good will to me through the power of Jesus. So the third option, "I am neither of the above" should not preclude "I have been all of the above and continue to trust God in His deliverance."

 

[John Zain]

Please choose one of the following:
סּ I am a slave of God, and of obedience, and of righteousness
סּ I am a slave of sin
סּ I am neither of the above

How about I have been a slave of sin, have presented my members to masters other than God and now experience the result of His (our Father in heaven's) good will to me through the power of Jesus. So the third option, "I am neither of the above" should not preclude "I have been all of the above and continue to trust God in His deliverance."

Okay, if you insist ...
but I see Paul saying one must be a slave of one or the other,
so if one doesn't choose #1, he is a #2.

 

[Sparkey]

Okay, if you insist ...

Thanks, but I wasn't trying to insist, not really. I do like the conversation, appreciate the concern and would agree that ultimately we are slaves to the Master that we present ourselves to. I just don't like what sounds like a false dichotomy and haven't yet been able to express myself to you as well as I might if Paul were here, posting. In fact, I don't think I would dare challenge his statement or suggest that others might take what he says and run with it arriving at a possible erroneous conclusion. That job would better be left to other Apostles, not me.

 

[John Zain]

... ultimately we are slaves to the Master that we present ourselves to.

While we are having a very private discussion about Paul, perhaps we might agree that
no one else here seems to be interested in what Paul has to say ...
re: his dozens of warnings/threats about BACs walking away from their salvation.

I am preparing a new thread ...
which compares Jesus' view with Paul's view re: what is required for eternal life!
And I am hoping that I will be allowed to post it here on this forum.

Do people here agree with the Muslims ...
who complain that Paul's gospel is not the same as Jesus' gospel?

IMO, they are the same ... but people just don't understand how this is possible.

 

[farouk]

Okay, if you insist ...

Thanks, but I wasn't trying to insist, not really. I do like the conversation, appreciate the concern and would agree that ultimately we are slaves to the Master that we present ourselves to. I just don't like what sounds like a false dichotomy and haven't yet been able to express myself to you as well as I might if Paul were here, posting. In fact, I don't think I would dare challenge his statement or suggest that others might take what he says and run with it arriving at a possible erroneous conclusion. That job would better be left to other Apostles, not me.

I think the Biblical analogy is of the Old Testament bondervant. If offered freedom, some bondservants would choose to serve their master willingly for ever and would have their ear pierced.

 

[josefnospam]

The reality of God making us holy is truly amazing! Listen to how John puts it: "Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2).

Christ only is holy...........and we are to if his spirit is in us. But we live in a sinful natural body and we are ALL sinners in the flesh. It is truly amazing what he has done for his people.

 

[WIP]

Christ only is holy...........and we are to if his spirit is in us.

This seems to contradict to me. Either Christ alone is holy or not.
Also, aren't the Father Holy Spirit holy?

 

[Sparkey]

Words are cumbersome, are they not? If we are talking about the HOLY Spirit of God - and about the Man, Jesus, upon whom was poured out the HS without measure, and we speak of these concepts (in context of our other conversations) as "Christ" which may technically be understood as "Anointed" or "The Anointed One" (as the case may be), the words fail somewhat in their intent, to clearly communicate our ideas fully.

Of course, I'm reading behind the lines here and I don't mean to try to speak for another, but am interjecting my own thoughts into the flow of the conversation and words that we read. Probably it would be better to wait for josefnospam's reply but I thought it would be okay to set the stage with my best guess.

 

[Deborah13]

The reality of God making us holy is truly amazing! Listen to how John puts it: "Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2).

Christ only is holy...........and we are to if his spirit is in us. But we live in a sinful natural body and we are ALL sinners in the flesh. It is truly amazing what he has done for his people.

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

washed in the blood of the Lamb
sanctified (holy in His holiness)
justified (by being made righteous in His righteousness)

In His name, by the Spirit of the Living God.

Is this what you were saying?

 

[John Zain]

No one has a comment re: how Paul's gospel compares to Jesus' gospel?

Most BACs think they are presently actually all of the following
because of misunderstood Scriptures and false teachings:
justified, righteous, holy, eternally saved, etc.

But, throughout the NT we are told to BE all of these things
... to prove who IS all of these things.

Just for example ...

Holiness is required

“… but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,
because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.” (1 Peter 1:15-16)

“… He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love …” (Ephesians 1:4)

“… (Jesus wants) to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight,
if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast,
and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel …” (Colossians 1: 22-23)

More verses: 2 Timothy 1:9, 2 Peter 3:11, Romans 12:1, 1 Peter 2:5-9, Rev. 20:6, 21:8

 

[Sparkey]

No one has a comment re: how Paul's gospel compares to Jesus' gospel?

Most BACs...

I should admit my ignorance at this point before we go much further because I don't know what a BAC is? Also, I don't know how we might define things regarding the Good News of the Holy Spirit (Gospel) through Jesus or as given to us through Paul.

I would definitely agree with your statement about holiness though. It is required of us. Just having a little trouble in the translation, if you don't mind?

~Sparrow

PS Hurry to post again and get over the unsightly little blemish in your post count ;)

 

[John Zain]

Sparrowhawke,

BAC is my cute little abbrev. for Born-Again Christian.

Okay, let us see if my thread re: Jesus' gospel and Paul's gospel is posted.