I have a question for you all....

[Admiral]

The bible says that Satan accuses the brethern before God day and night.

If that is true, what do you do when a supposedly good christian brother makes accusations against another Christian or denomination that may or may not be concidered Chrisitan?

Is it legitament for Christian brothers to fight over what is doctrinally sound? Discuss, yes, but fight???

I would like to put forth an idea... The idea of Christian growth...It says somewhere in the NT that various ministers of the Gospel either planted the seed, or watered the young plant, or harvest the fruit of that same plant, but IT WAS GOD WHO MADE IT GROW. We call that growing in the Lord.

You all know your emotional baggage and you all know what happers you in your growing in Jesus. But have you ever truely grown if someone was kicking you, calling you names, and telling you that you habor false doctrines????

I will put forth right now, that ANYONE who accuses you of these things, is an agent of Satan and an enemy of God.

Now, that doesn't mean that you cant disagree with someone's interpretation of the bible...But call him Names????

And if you are studying with him and he still arrives at the same conclusions from bible texts, how can you say that his doctrines are not biblical? How can you even say that they are false???? They came from the bible, did they not???

In my mind, if anyone does that, I have to admit that I question that man's conversion....[Isn't it a good thing that I ain't the judge????!!!!!]

So, whatcha think of my complaint?

 

[mutzrein]

An admirable question Admiral.

& looking forward to seeing the responses.

Yes, our doctrines may differ but it is God alone who knows the heart of man.

 

[Admiral]

An admirable question Admiral.

& looking forward to seeing the responses.

Yes, our doctrines may differ but it is God alone who knows the heart of man.

Yeah, I put this up last night and I dont see many responses....

So, having thought about this last night, I thought I would condencse this down a bit....


Two committed Christian men [we'll call them A and B for simplicity's sake] with divergent views [or even different mainstream denominations] get together for a bible study. In the course of the bible study, one [A] pulls out pre-written arguements from other people against the other's position, calling B's position "anti-Christian" and "cultish" and " Un-Christian" and seeks to convert B to A's position. However, B continues to maintain his position is biblical with reason and biblical evidence.

Is A's behavior Christian?

Is B's behavior Christian?

What is acceptable behavior in disagreeing with other Christians over interpreted biblical text?

 

[GundamZero]

No Christian should treat any brother or sister with anything but respect. We were commanded to treat each other as if the other were greater than we are.

With that said, it is important that tolerance confused with capitulation, because there can be no compromising on Word of God. Any time there is disagreement over doctrine, scripture should be the beginning and the end of the debate, and both parties should conduct themselves in a Christlike manner.

You probably already know this, but I thought it ought to be said.

 

[ArtGuy]

I will put forth right now, that ANYONE who accuses you of these things, is an agent of Satan and an enemy of God.

So... you're saying that a Christian who decries the point of view of another is an agent of Satan. Doesn't this make you an agent of Satan, then?

How about this: People who get angry, call others names, and doubt that other Christians are real Christians are not being very nice and are acting in a non-Christian manner. They're not agents of Satan, they're not enemies of God, they're simply acting unwisely and unhelpfully.

 

[mutzrein]

You know folks - there is blessing in this, and it is one of the only cases where it is more blessed to receive than to give.

Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

So, does anyone want to bless me?

 

[Justice]

An admirable question Admiral.

& looking forward to seeing the responses.

Yes, our doctrines may differ but it is God alone who knows the heart of man.

Yeah, I put this up last night and I dont see many responses....

So, having thought about this last night, I thought I would condencse this down a bit....


Two committed Christian men [we'll call them A and B for simplicity's sake] with divergent views [or even different mainstream denominations] get together for a bible study. In the course of the bible study, one [A] pulls out pre-written arguements from other people against the other's position, calling B's position "anti-Christian" and "cultish" and " Un-Christian" and seeks to convert B to A's position. However, B continues to maintain his position is biblical with reason and biblical evidence.

Is A's behavior Christian?

Is B's behavior Christian?

What is acceptable behavior in disagreeing with other Christians over interpreted biblical text?

How much of the Bible does A or B have to add to or take away from to support the differing positions???

There are many false/stretched doctrines floating around. I try to focus on the words of our Saviour Jesus Christ. If any doctrine disputes his word by adding to or taking away I reject them. Doctrine can become so important to some that they lose Jesus Christ along the way.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Ephesians 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Justice

 

[Admiral]

How much of the Bible does A or B have to add to or take away from to support the differing positions???

There are many false/stretched doctrines floating around. I try to focus on the words of our Saviour Jesus Christ. If any doctrine disputes his word by adding to or taking away I reject them. Doctrine can become so important to some that they lose Jesus Christ along the way.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Ephesians 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Justice

I guess what I am getting at here, is the relationships...If A is insisting, that he is right, even to the point of loudly verbally calling B position as un-Christian, unbiblical, and getting into the face of A and stabbing a finger in A's chest, is A's behavior Christian? Describe the point where A's behavior would be Christian and yet still disagree with him...

If B is taking bible texts out of the bible, EVEN IF HE INTERPRETS THE TEXTS WRONG, but calmly disagrees with A, is B's behavior Chirstian?

 

[Solo]

Here are some examples of Admiral's posts in relation to his questions asked:

If that is true, what do you do when a supposedly good christian brother makes accusations against another Christian or denomination that may or may not be concidered Chrisitan?

Is it legitament for Christian brothers to fight over what is doctrinally sound? Discuss, yes, but fight???

You all know your emotional baggage and you all know what happers you in your growing in Jesus. But have you ever truely grown if someone was kicking you, calling you names, and telling you that you habor false doctrines????

Now, that doesn't mean that you cant disagree with someone's interpretation of the bible...But call him Names????

And if you are studying with him and he still arrives at the same conclusions from bible texts, how can you say that his doctrines are not biblical? How can you even say that they are false???? They came from the bible, did they not???

In my mind, if anyone does that, I have to admit that I question that man's conversion....[Isn't it a good thing that I ain't the judge????!!!!!]

From what I have seen, you don't know what you are talking about and neither does your references. So, PROVE YOUR POINT BY USING YOUR BIBLE....and only your bible.

Here is a list of thier doctrines that you can show is "false " if you can.... Choose one....Your pick...

And Solo, it may get me kicked off the board, but if you do not prove your point, or back down, I will call you an enemy of God,as only an enemy of God accuses the Christian brothern....My promise to you....[Bold Emphasis Added by Solo]

No, YOU are the one that is out of line. Your actions are totally not of Christ.

YOu have not responded with bible quote to refute thier doctrines. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. Not a single one of YOUR articles was written by YOU....Therefore, you don't know what you are saying, but rather you are parroting what someone else says.

I never attacked you, rather I attacked your behavior, which is acting like Satans...accusing Christian brothers that they may not be Christian...That is evidence of Satanic behavior.

This is not about other people...It is about you acting like Satan and doing satan's work, that is, accusing other Christian brothers of not being Christian.

At least I give the oppertunity for debate, and I give the oppertunity to show what is false...YOU KEEP ACCUSING WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE.... You are nothing more than a wolf in sheeps clothing, AN AGENT of Satan....

May God have mercy on your soul...

If that is the case, then YOU need to get your hands dirty and YOU need to study it out FROM THE BIBLEand YOU need to post it ...

You need to do the work that God gave you and prove that the SDAs doctrines are false...OTherwise, you are spreading lies and are accusing the SDA brothers that they are not Christian....

Once you start doing that, you are an agent of satan....because only satan and his agents intimidate Christian brothers.

You have people, who are bitter against the SDAs, giving you thier 'fruit of thier labors' and you are eating it...Tell me, is it the sweet fruit of salvation or is it bitter fruit ?

I dare say that you really don't know unless you open up your bible and look for your self....

All you are doing is spreading bitter fruit from people who are bitter themselves or have somethig against the SDA chruch....

You are still an agent of Satan, who spread bitter fruit and accusations all over the world against all Christian brothern, whether they be SDAs or Baptists, or Methodists or pentecostals...

For shame, doing the work of Satan, you, who claim to be one of God's children.....

Telll,me....Why are you doing doing the work of the Holy Spirit? Why are you attempting to be like God? When you are trying to convict another of thier sins, you are taking God's place and doing His work.... You have listened to Satan's lie, "You can be like God".... Shame, Shame Shame...

I have already shown that you yourself do not know what you are talking about. I have shown that you do not study for yourself the materials that you have posted up here. I have already shown that you take bad material, not origional material, but bad material and you make it worse because of your closed mindedness. I have shown through a cursery look over of the material and coparied to the origional documents that there is a discrepancy . I have shown that you want to take the role of the Holy Spirit and convict people of supposed sins. I have shown that you thirst for God's power. and I have to conclude that you also desire to upserp God Himself if He were to cross you. I have already shown that you do the work of satan, by accusing fellow christians that they can not be christians. I have shown that your works are of the devil himself.

Why should I believe anything that you say?

Maybe I am blinded because your behavior mirrors Satans behavior...

If you say that the Adventist say that they are THE remant Church, and as you say they say that all others have appostitized, you realize that you are giving credance to what the Adventists are saying....that you have appostitized from the Bible and mirrored the behavior of satan...

I know that reasoning sounds convoluted , but I dont know how else to reach you...Your behavior mirrors satans and is not Christian at all.

Disagree with the Adventist all you want, but do not accuse them of not being Christian when they have done so much and proved otherwise....

I have stood in your way...I have held you accountable for what I see as anti-Christian behavior....This subject is closed to me...I will pray for you ....may God have mercy on your soul...

All of these posts can be compared to my posts and correspondance with Admiral. Each one can now know what Admiral is referring to. Please note that I have made notice that the members of the SDA are swell people, and a lot of them are bona fide believers, but the false doctrines that are taught, and the false prophet Ellen G. White should be exposed inorder to set those of the SDA free.

My posts and Admirals above posts can be seen in their entirety at http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=21357

 

[Justice]

2 Timothy 4:1-5

4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
______________________________________________________________________

Romans 16:17-18

16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
______________________________________________________________________

1 Timothy 1:4-6

1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
______________________________________________________________________

1 John 4:20-21

4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
______________________________________________________________________

This is the very reason that I spend so much of my time in current events. When I first joined this forum it was for fellowship but I also found a lot of strife.

I would rather talk to the liberals and atheists then to cause hurt among my breathen. I hope the Lord forgives me because I know not all doctrine discussed here is sound.

Spreading the good news, salvation that can only be found in Jesus Christ who is the root of sound doctrine. Anything that can cause people to stumble, delay salvation, or seek any other way should be not be taught, preached, or told. We should avoid any doctrine that adds to or takes away from God's word.

In some cases we are to mark and avoid those who cause divisions and offences.

While Brothers in Christ are told to love one another. I suppose it's up to you guys to decide which.

Justice

 

[Admiral]

Spreading the good news, salvation that can only be found in Jesus Christ who is the root of sound doctrine. Anything that can cause people to stumble, delay salvation, or seek any other way should be not be taught, preached, or told. We should avoid any doctrine that adds to or takes away from God's word.

While I understand the need to point out errors in doctine, I question the need to "rebuke" , in the tradtional understanding, a brother who is in error.

A brother who habitually abuses other brothers, who uses offensive language that is emotionally charged, who accuses other Christians of not being Christian, ......if that is what is observed by you, are you not obligated to hold this same brother accountable for his abuse? If we know that Satan accuses the brothern, who are we to mirror those same actions? If we follow Christ, then let's follow Christ and be the ambassadors that He calls us to be...Let us be as "wise as serpents , and harmless as doves" in our speach...Let us be circumspect in our speach as well as in our actions....If we do this, this board can be a real meeting place for Christians of all types, because it is a safe place to explore the thoughts of our Lord and Savior.

 

[Justice]

Spreading the good news, salvation that can only be found in Jesus Christ who is the root of sound doctrine. Anything that can cause people to stumble, delay salvation, or seek any other way should be not be taught, preached, or told. We should avoid any doctrine that adds to or takes away from God's word.

While I understand the need to point out errors in doctine, I question the need to "rebuke" , in the tradtional understanding, a brother who is in error.

It's Biblical --- 2 Timothy 4:1-5

A brother who habitually abuses other brothers, who uses offensive language that is emotionally charged, who accuses other Christians of not being Christian, ......if that is what is observed by you, are you not obligated to hold this same brother accountable for his abuse? If we know that Satan accuses the brothern, who are we to mirror those same actions? If we follow Christ, then let's follow Christ and be the ambassadors that He calls us to be...Let us be as "wise as serpents , and harmless as doves" in our speach...Let us be circumspect in our speach as well as in our actions....If we do this, this board can be a real meeting place for Christians of all types, because it is a safe place to explore the thoughts of our Lord and Savior.

Because of Jesus Christ there is hope for non-Christians, cults, and even our own brethen.

The difference is satan is condemned, there is NO hope for him. Comparing brethen to satan for any reason comes off as hopeless.

Stretched/false doctrine does the same thing.

I can give you many examples but for now I'm not getting into that debate.

Justice

 

[shaitiger]

We are all aware that even though we are believers in Christ, we find ourselves acting "un-Christianlike" sometimes. Thank the Lord that when we screw up, eventually God helps us to recognize or wrongs so that we will grow in Him. Sometimes we don't recognize it right away but God will reveal it to us. As someone already said earlier, we don't know the heart of man. Only God's knows. If another brother/sister in Christ is accusing you of something in a negative way, God will handle this person in his own time. It is our duty to provide grace in these type of situations in hope that if the other person is wrong, he/she will see where their fault is.

 

[Admiral]

sorry, double clicked... :

 

[Admiral]

Spreading the good news, salvation that can only be found in Jesus Christ who is the root of sound doctrine. Anything that can cause people to stumble, delay salvation, or seek any other way should be not be taught, preached, or told. We should avoid any doctrine that adds to or takes away from God's word.

While I understand the need to point out errors in doctine, I question the need to "rebuke" , in the tradtional understanding, a brother who is in error.

It's Biblical --- 2 Timothy 4:1-5 .

And which part appears to be more biblical? this-
4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine .
or this

4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

How does an evangelist attract a brother or a non-believer to Christ? By telling him how bad he his, or by telling him how good Jesus is? And if one does accept Jesus, isn't that same person ALL READY REBUKED without ever saying a rebuking word?


That is the issue....

 

[Solo]

Spreading the good news, salvation that can only be found in Jesus Christ who is the root of sound doctrine. Anything that can cause people to stumble, delay salvation, or seek any other way should be not be taught, preached, or told. We should avoid any doctrine that adds to or takes away from God's word.

While I understand the need to point out errors in doctine, I question the need to "rebuke" , in the tradtional understanding, a brother who is in error.

It's Biblical --- 2 Timothy 4:1-5 .

And which part appears to be more biblical? this-
4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine .
or this

4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

How does an evangelist attract a brother or a non-believer to Christ? By telling him how bad he his, or by telling him how good Jesus is? And if one does accept Jesus, isn't that same person ALL READY REBUKED without ever saying a rebuking word?


That is the issue....

God is the one who draws unbelievers to himself through Jesus Christ, by the work of the Holy Spirit by using evangelists preaching the Word of God. God uses evangelists to also reprove, rebuke, and exhort with patience, believers concerning doctrines. Those that are wrapped up in false doctrine will be reproved and rebuked, not ignored.

Both verses of scripture that you posted is the Word of God, and the evangelist will make full proof of his ministry by watching in all things, enduring affliction, and doing the work of an evangelist. The work of the evangelist is to "preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine".

It is the Holy Spirit's responsibility to convict a brother in Christ, or an unbeliever to the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is also the Holy Spirit that gives the evangelist the discernment and the ability to proclaim the Word of God in each situation that arises. If one is not an evangelist, they should not judge God's evangelist with false witness. If one believes that they are an evangelist, then one should make full proof of one's ministry. If one is hesitant to proclaim the Word of God because of being fearful of what another might think of them, then they must re-evaluate their walk.

 

[mutzrein]

solo wrote:

If one believes that they are an evangelist, then one should make full proof of one's ministry. end of quote.

Why do I need someones approval to be His evangelist? I won't get paid tp be His evangelist but I am volunteer evangelist for about 7 years. Am I committing sin against the Lord? I don't think so!!!!

Absolutely! It is God who gives gifts. It is God who ordains. It is God who gives the ability to sow the seed. It is God who gives us the responsibility as to where we sow it. It is after all precious seed and if God directs us to go where he knows the soil is fertile, who is anyone else to stand in his way? And it is God who gives the growth.