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I learned somthing New Today

Jesus was a Man born of a Woman.

When God raised him from the Dead, God gave him all Power in Heaven and on Earth, so God diefied Jesus, and made him God like for want of a better word..... the exception being of course that all are now under Jesus the son, except for God the Father himself.

Now the reason why I used the termanolagy for want of a better word, is the special role Jesus now plays and is spoken of in scripture, the Mediator between God and Man.

Jesus said it himself.... nobody comes to the Father except by me,,,, so while Jesus has God like Power and Authority....given too him by God, he is not actualy God.

He is the Mediator..... scripture actualy tells us this....

There is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, to be testified in due time (1 Timothy 2:5-6).

So no would be my answer, Jesus is not a God, even though he has God like power and authority... given to him by God.

He would be the second most powerfull being in Creation.... second only to God himself.


Grace and Peace to you
 
Poke said:
Spirit Driven said:
Jesus was given all power and authotirty in Heaven and on Earth when God raised him from the Dead, he is now seated at the right hand of God.
Click to expand...

Yes. But, you still have not answered this question: Is Jesus God, a god, or a man?
Click to expand...

Poke,

What makes YOU 'think' that He MUST be EITHER? As God IS unique among EVERYTHING that exists, so TOO could He quite easily create 'something' or 'someone' ELSE that is JUST as unique.

We KNOW that Jesus Christ IS The Son of God. This is WITHOUT question. We KNOW that Jesus Christ CAME IN THE FLESH. This in unarguable. We KNOW that God IS the God of Christ ALSO for this is stated. We do NOT KNOW that Jesus IS God. It has been assumed, by those that had a 'previous' triune' god, that since there was Father, Son and Holy Spirit involved with this 'new' religion that this symbolized a 'trinity' in 'their minds'. This does NOT MAKE IT SO.

M, Your quotes offer NOTHING other than another mystery as to the actualy nature of Christ. Not ONE of these pieces of scripture have Christ stating that HE IS GOD. More 'speculation. But, if we take the REST of the Word into consideration, we find that there is ONLY ONE GOD. NO, not three 'pieces' of God, NO, not Father and Son BEING the SAME. To conjecture that YOUR offering IS THE offering in these words is nothing but that, conjecture.

So, Spirit Driven, you have a much sounder ground to 'stand on' by simply accepting the Word as offered than 'trying' to turn it into something that 'seems' more pleasing to one's desires. For those that insist that Jesus Christ IS God would be hard pressed to understand HOW He could be worshiped WITHOUT being God Himself.

Folks, we worship that which we adore, (love). Be it money, other people, sex, drugs, music, cars, houses, clothes, jewelry, vanity, pride, WHATEVER. And to boil this down to it's simplist form it means that we worship that which we devote our time and effort towards. We were commanded that this be God and each other. But, society has allowed us the leasure to IGNORE this and worship OURSELVES more than either God, His Son, or our neighbors. That doesn't make it RIGHT, simply because everyone has accepted this 'way of life'..

God IS God and has been in the understanding of man since He revealed this to the Hebrews. And guess what, THEY KNOW NOTHING OF God having a 'triune' nature. Funny that He would hide this 'all important' understanding from His OWN chosen people. Those that followed HIM for thousands of years, and those that followed Christ throughout His ministry.

MEC
 
Funny thing that HE would hide HIS Son from them; funny thing that HE would hide, or at least hinder, the Holy Spirit from indwelling believers; funny thing that HE would hide HIS messianic ekklesia from them; funny HE would hide the truth of much prophecy from them; funny that a whole mess of revelation was hidden from them. :-?

Bottom line is this, we have a ToS and SoF that says:

1 - This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act.

&

This is the Statement of Faith of our forums, and of our leadership.

There is one true God, eternally existing in three "persons" - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
 
The bible states that..."great is the mystery of godliness...

1Timothy 3:16 (KJV) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Does this not tell it all? I'm amazed that anyone who has been in the Christian faith for any number of years still questions the authenticity of Christ being who He said he was...the great "I AM". We hear the phrase about the "dual nature of Christ" in that he was just as much God as man and just as much man as God. Jesus is the image of the invisible God. Colossians 2:9 says, "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily". (Speaking of Jesus)

John 14:8-9 (KJV) Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Can anyone say that "he that has seen me has seen my wife?" I would hope not!

Isaiah prophesied of him in chapter 9 verse 6...

Isaiah 9:6 (KJV) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Note that Jesus was called the everlasting Father, not the everlasting Son.
John 8:58 (KJV) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 10:30 (KJV) I and my Father are one.

1 Peter 1:19-20 (KJV) But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Jesus was in the mind of God before the world. He knew that mankind would rebel and need a Saviour. God, being a spirit, does not possess flesh and blood and according to Hebrews 9:22...

Hebrews 9:22 (KJV) And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

So God prepared a body for himself to shed that blood for us all in the form of Jesus Christ. Take also Titus 1:3-4 into consideration...

Titus 1:3-4 (KJV) But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour; To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

So,. is there a contradiction here? Either God is our Saviour or Jesus is. Can both be if Christ is not God?

Revelation 1:11 (KJV) Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Isa 44:6 (KJV) Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Again, we gave God and Jesus claiming to be the first and the last. Either this is another contradiction and the bible is a liar or Jesus is who he claimed to be...God in the flesh.


Just these few verses should be ample proof that Jesus Christ is God.
 
vic said:
Funny thing that HE would hide HIS Son from them; funny thing that HE would hide, or at least hinder, the Holy Spirit from indwelling believers; funny thing that HE would hide HIS messianic ekklesia from them; funny HE would hide the truth of much prophecy from them; funny that a whole mess of revelation was hidden from them. :-?

Bottom line is this, we have a ToS and SoF that says:

1 - This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act.

&

This is the Statement of Faith of our forums, and of our leadership.

There is one true God, eternally existing in three "persons" - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Click to expand...


Amen and Amen
 
WMD said:
Did you know that Jesus was not a Christian either?

Isnt it funny how people start threads like this one.... ridiculous discussions used to spark a debate with the intention of starting heated arguments. Does anyone else notice this too, or am I reading between the lines too much?
Click to expand...

Look at all th posts that have been added since my last comment.... How did I know this was going to develope like this?
 
Until that time comes Jesus has the Authority to rule... but he is not God.
Click to expand...

"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 10:32-33)

I'm not much for "sinners in the hands of an angry God" scare tactics but that verse should scare the living daylights out of you.

And speaking of the Gospels, let's not forget what Thomas openly acknowledged:

"Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God!'" (John 20:28)
 
D46 said:
The bible states that..."great is the mystery of godliness...

1Timothy 3:16 (KJV) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Does this not tell it all? I'm amazed that anyone who has been in the Christian faith for any number of years still questions the authenticity of Christ being who He said he was...the great "I AM". We hear the phrase about the "dual nature of Christ" in that he was just as much God as man and just as much man as God. Jesus is the image of the invisible God. Colossians 2:9 says, "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily". (Speaking of Jesus)

John 14:8-9 (KJV) Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Can anyone say that "he that has seen me has seen my wife?" I would hope not!

Isaiah prophesied of him in chapter 9 verse 6...

Isaiah 9:6 (KJV) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Note that Jesus was called the everlasting Father, not the everlasting Son.
John 8:58 (KJV) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 10:30 (KJV) I and my Father are one.

1 Peter 1:19-20 (KJV) But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Jesus was in the mind of God before the world. He knew that mankind would rebel and need a Saviour. God, being a spirit, does not possess flesh and blood and according to Hebrews 9:22...

Hebrews 9:22 (KJV) And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

So God prepared a body for himself to shed that blood for us all in the form of Jesus Christ. Take also Titus 1:3-4 into consideration...

Titus 1:3-4 (KJV) But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour; To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

So,. is there a contradiction here? Either God is our Saviour or Jesus is. Can both be if Christ is not God?

Revelation 1:11 (KJV) Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Isa 44:6 (KJV) Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Again, we gave God and Jesus claiming to be the first and the last. Either this is another contradiction and the bible is a liar or Jesus is who he claimed to be...God in the flesh.


Just these few verses should be ample proof that Jesus Christ is God.
Click to expand...
Thats some of the better teaching i've seen on the Godhead, D46.
Alot of times people will post scripture and then give their own interpretation of it, trying to convince their apponenet that Jesus is God....The problem is most times the scriptures they will use isn't backing them up very well.
I think you did a good job of bringing it together in the above post.
 
Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 10:32-33)

Why should this bit of scripture scare me?
It plainly demonstrates again that God the Father and Jesus the Son are two seperate individuals.

Jesus is the Mediator between God and Man.

Peace
 
I agree that Jesus is God, but no Scripture is clear enough on the relationship between the Father and the Son (let alone the Holy Spirit).

If you claim the Father and the Son are separate beings that together consist of God, you run into problems like the ones destiny mentioned. But if you claim the Father and the Son are one and the same in every way, you run into problems like these:

Matthew 11:27
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Luke 1:32
He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Luke 9:26
For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

John 3:35
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 5:22
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

John 6:27
Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

John 10:36
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Click to expand...

Each of the above differentiates between the Father and the Son to varying degrees, and these are just a few I could find in the Gospels, let alone the rest of the Bible. One in particular worth mentioning:

1 Corinthians 15:28
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Click to expand...

Neither way to justify the Father's relationship with the Son is perfect; both have verses for, and both have verses against. To say either way is the complete truth puts God in the box of our understanding, and makes much of the Bible confusing.
 
Well thats fine by me.......
I have posted in the thread before about how Im not really all that interested in making an issue of it....... I guess its really a question of what do you believe.

How do the scriptures speak to you, God does the revealing to each heart after all.... it is not supposed to be about who is right or wrong.... if your putting your trust in Christ then your full filling Gods will for you, and thats what really matters.... not weather you believe he is also God or is a seperate individual as in Gods son.


Grace and Peace to you all
 
Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 10:32-33)

Why should this bit of scripture scare me?
It plainly demonstrates again that God the Father and Jesus the Son are two seperate individuals.
Click to expand...

Because you are denying the deity of Jesus, and it is essential to understand Christ's deity in order to obtain eternal life! You really should read St. John's works more. Try John 1:1 for starters, "and the Word was God".

Oh, and you conveniently avoided my quotation of what Thomas said.

Also tell me your opinion, has the Immanuel prophecy (Isaiah 7:14) failed or not yet come into fulfillment? And does Isaiah 9:6 not refer to Jesus?
 
Here are some more verses to chew on that affirm Christ's deity:

"Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood." (Acts 20:28)

"Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen." (Romans 9:5)

"Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped." (Philippians 2:5,6)

"For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form." (Colossians 2:9)

"While we wait for the blessed hope  the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ." (Titus 2:13)

"But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdomâ€Â. "(Hebrews 1:8)

"Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours." (2 Peter 1:1)

"We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true  even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life." (1 John 5:20)


You now have affirmation from Luke, Paul, Peter, John, and the author of Hebrews.



P.S.
I pulled alot of those references from this site here: http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/nbi/207.html . It discusses the Granville-Sharp rule for Greek construction which you might be interested in. The only assertion that I disagree with on the page is that Jesus is Yahweh, because I believe Yahweh to be God the Father only. But with all the verses I've given you how can you deny Jesus as God?
 
Destiny, lovely, Lewis...many thanks for those kind words. I needed some encouraging words today. Sometimes I say something right now and then.The Deity of God is indeed a mystery and no man can completely understand it. Albeit, some try to twist the scriptures to confuse some who are already wrestling with a three God partnership. Consider Stephen upon being stoned in Acts 7:55-56...

Acts 7:56 (KJV) And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

According to John 1:18, ..."no man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." If we maintain that Stephen literally saw God and saw Jesus standing beside Him, the we have another contradiction of scripture. If we contend that "on the right hand" means a physical position, then we must also accept that "in the bosom of the Father" is a physical position which would be a curious configuration for a two part God concept. The answer to me is seemingly a complicated question and is found in Matthew 26:24 when Jesus said...

Matthew 26:64 (KJV) Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

When Stephen saw the relationship of the mediator man, Christ Jesus, on the right hand of power. Also, in Luke 11:20...

Luke 11:20 (KJV) But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

The finger of God is used figuratively as the power of God just as the "right hand" is used. Stephen leaves no doubt as to his underestanding concerning the Deity of Christ...

Acts 7:59 (KJV) And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.


Stephen called upon God, and by what name did he call him?.."Lord Jesus." Does this not agree with Pauls experience in Acts 9:5 when he said, "Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus..."

I think the bottoom line for me is that there will be but one God in Heaven, and Jesus is His name.
 
jgredline said:
D46 said:
I think the bottom line for me is that there will be but one God in Heaven, and Jesus is His name.
Click to expand...

Hi D46
Can you elaborate a little more on this?
Blessings,
Javier
Click to expand...

Not sure what you may be looking for but according to Isaiah 42:8...

Isaiah 42:8 (KJV) I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Isaiah 44:6 (KJV) Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isaiah 45:18 (KJV) For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Isaiah 46:9 (KJV) Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

Taking all these OT scriptures into consideration, we can see from the New Testament Scriptures sited previously, that Jesus is indeed God manifested in the flesh. Jesus, God and man fused, not confused; Deity and humanity miraculously mingled together.
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily". As man, he got hungry; as God, he multiplied the loaves and fishes-as God he arose and calmed the seas; as man he prayed but, as God, he answered prayer. As man, he died and as God he arose from the dead. It is evident that Jesus was raised from the dead by the "Spirit". the same Holy Ghost (Spirit) which shall one day raise us from the dead is the same power which brought Christ forth from the grave. But, if you look further in the Scriptures, you can see where God was said to have raised Jesus from the dead. Colossians 2:12 says...

Colossians 2:12 (KJV) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

So far we now have Scriptural evidence of Jesus being raised by the "Spirit" and by God. but, if you go a bit further you can see that Jesus plainly proclaims he would raise himself from the dead.

John 2:19 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

John 10:17-18 (KJV) Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

To me, these verses which have Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Ghost all raising Jesus from the dead harmonize greatly in the glowing fact that there is but one God, the eternal Spirit, who in the fullness of time, was "manifested in the flesh, jestified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." (I Timothy 3:16)

If you take the Scriptures sited from Isaiah and former ones quoted, mingle those with Revelation 1:8 and 11, there can only be but one God as there cannot be two first and two lasts. Neither, says God, will he share his glory with another. The verdict is in and I guess I have been found guilty of believing that Jesus Christ, my Saviour, is indeed God himself.
 
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