I want proof!

[Guest]

Thank you for sharing.

One more question, if you do not mind.

What kind of proof are you looking for now?

 

[Quath]

What kind of proof are you looking for now?

When my grandmother found out I was atheist, she tried hard to convert me back. That was an interesting part of my life. Up until then, I didn't have feelings for or against religion. She was just coincerned for my salvation and I know her intentions were the purest. But I do remember one conversation that bothered me.

I asked her if she would be happy in heaven no matter what? She said she believes she would. I asked her if she would be happy if I spent eternity in hell? She said she would, but she didn''t want that. I thought that was kind of sad and twisted. I knew I could not be happy if someone I loved was tortured every day for all of eternity - unless I lost my current sense of morality.

She sent me book after book trying to re-convert me. But they tended to have the opposite effect. Most of those books were full of logical or factual errors. I could easily spot them, and I knew that the writers must have known about them. But they seemed not to let let a lie get in their way to help people find the "truth."

But what really upset me was really reading more of the Bible. Joshua's campaign sounded the same as Hitler's. God ordering people to kill girls who have pre-maritial sex in front of their parents sounded just excessively cruel. I talked to a Ku Klux Klan guy who backed everything up with passages from the Bible. My other grandmother tried to justify slavery and racism with passages from the Bible.

It wasn't all negative. There are some very decent Christians out there (as I consider the members of this forum to be). But what stroke me was the people with the horrible morality could believe they were the good ones and feel righteous in their hatred of others. That is when I first started to chat with Christians on websites.

So that is a long rambling introduction as to what kind of proof I would need. To believe a god exists, I would need to know "which god?" Mostly because I can not longer believe that the Bible can be entirely correct. For example, a God who orders needless suffering can not be the same God as one who loves everyone.

So the evidence would have to be outside the Bible. Also, "truth" in a scientific sense is never 100%. The more evidence I get, the more likely I am to believe. So, God answering my prayers would be some proof. God visiting me or sending an angel would be some proof. God writing his names in the stars would be a huge proof. But there are many other ways.

One thing that would be hard is deteriming alternative explanations for God such as being an alien, time traveler, a spuer-hero, one of many other gods, or something else. For that, I would need some answers from God and then I would have to decide if I could trust them. If he turns out to be more Old testament, then I may believe he exists, but I could never worship him. If he is more New Testament, I could worship him.

Hope that wasn't too long or drawn out.

 

[Guest]

When my grandmother found out I was atheist, she tried hard to convert me back. That was an interesting part of my life. Up until then, I didn't have feelings for or against religion. She was just coincerned for my salvation and I know her intentions were the purest. But I do remember one conversation that bothered me.

I asked her if she would be happy in heaven no matter what? She said she believes she would. I asked her if she would be happy if I spent eternity in hell? She said she would, but she didn''t want that. I thought that was kind of sad and twisted. I knew I could not be happy if someone I loved was tortured every day for all of eternity - unless I lost my current sense of morality.

She sent me book after book trying to re-convert me. But they tended to have the opposite effect. Most of those books were full of logical or factual errors. I could easily spot them, and I knew that the writers must have known about them. But they seemed not to let let a lie get in their way to help people find the "truth."

But what really upset me was really reading more of the Bible. Joshua's campaign sounded the same as Hitler's. God ordering people to kill girls who have pre-maritial sex in front of their parents sounded just excessively cruel. I talked to a Ku Klux Klan guy who backed everything up with passages from the Bible. My other grandmother tried to justify slavery and racism with passages from the Bible.

It wasn't all negative. There are some very decent Christians out there (as I consider the members of this forum to be). But what stroke me was the people with the horrible morality could believe they were the good ones and feel righteous in their hatred of others. That is when I first started to chat with Christians on websites.

So that is a long rambling introduction as to what kind of proof I would need. To believe a god exists, I would need to know "which god?" Mostly because I can not longer believe that the Bible can be entirely correct. For example, a God who orders needless suffering can not be the same God as one who loves everyone.

So the evidence would have to be outside the Bible. Also, "truth" in a scientific sense is never 100%. The more evidence I get, the more likely I am to believe. So, God answering my prayers would be some proof. God visiting me or sending an angel would be some proof. God writing his names in the stars would be a huge proof. But there are many other ways.

One thing that would be hard is deteriming alternative explanations for God such as being an alien, time traveler, a spuer-hero, one of many other gods, or something else. For that, I would need some answers from God and then I would have to decide if I could trust them. If he turns out to be more Old testament, then I may believe he exists, but I could never worship him. If he is more New Testament, I could worship him.

Hope that wasn't too long or drawn out.

Quath - there are many people who mis-use Christianity or any other religion (Look at Islam) for their own personal gain. It unfortunately gives God a bad name, but one must recognize the mis-use. Such as your examples of condoning racism, slavery, etc.

I appreciate your candor, and am thankful that you are willing to share your personal journey.

Hypothethically speaking, if you were to be in need of rescue (regardless of the circumstances needing the resuce - ie: flood, fire, whatever) would you dictate to the person rescuing you how you want to be rescued?

 

[destiny]

Quath, you have yet to be converted in the first place. You've never experienced God revealing Himself to you. I hope you'll keep asking Him to and mean it, brother. I call you brother because I believe you are though it hasn't become reality yet.

 

[Quath]

Quath - there are many people who mis-use Christianity or any other religion (Look at Islam) for their own personal gain. It unfortunately gives God a bad name, but one must recognize the mis-use. Such as your examples of condoning racism, slavery, etc.

I remember hearing a radio talk show once. The host was a very smart Christian. He did a very good job on the radio and was very reasonable. One point he would often make is that when people want to do violence or harm, they quote from the Old Testament. When they want to talk of love, forgiveness or charity, they quote fron the New Testament. Christianity seems versitale enough to allow just about any belief.

Hypothethically speaking, if you were to be in need of rescue (regardless of the circumstances needing the resuce - ie: flood, fire, whatever) would you dictate to the person rescuing you how you want to be rescued?

The analogy breaks down for me. First of all, I would have to realize I was in danger. Second of all, I would like to know there was a rescuer, not just people who believe one will show up if I do certain things.

Take for example that some people come to you and say that terrorist have targeted you. However, if you send $500 a month to an address, you will be saved. Would you be skeptical? Or would you just have faith and pay to save yourself?

Quath, you have yet to be converted in the first place. You've never experienced God revealing Himself to you. I hope you'll keep asking Him to and mean it, brother. I call you brother because I believe you are though it hasn't become reality yet.

When I believed, I had no doubts. It just seemed a fact like any other. I was baptised and would go to vacation Bible school. I use to pray every night. I had several kid version Bibles that I use to like to read (I liked the pictures a lot.) I was kind of bored at church, but I liked the after-church activities. I never had a bad experience at church or with a preacher.

I just developed doubts. So maybe there are two possibilities. One is there is no God and I just finally realized it. Another is there is a God who decided not to let me know he exists.

Now the second possibility raises other odd thoughts. Does God want me in heaven? If so, he would just need to reveal himself. Or is his choice not to reveal himself mean I will spend eternity in torment in hell? Or does God not obey scripture and will just remove me from existance rather than see me suffer forever?

I appreciate how nice you are, Destiny. I don't mean to give you a hard time. I am just trying to explain my perspective.

 

[Guest]

Quath - again, the Scriptures can be misused for all sorts of beliefs and ideas. That does not mean the Scriptures are at fault, but those that misuse them.

If you misuse a power tool and get harmed, whose fault is it - the power tool or the person who misused it?

If 'faith' was able to be logically explained - would it still be 'faith'?

This is not to say that 'faith' is illogical - because we operate on a form of faith in everything that we do. Even taken all necessary precautions, fully understanding how something works, there is still an amount of faith involved.

Every and all analogies can be broken down, a loophole found, if one looks hard enough - but for the sake of discussion, let's re-use my analogy and say all doubt is removed. You are in need of rescue, and there is a rescuer ready to save you - do you dictate to the rescuer how to 'save' you?

 

[Quath]

Quath - again, the Scriptures can be misused for all sorts of beliefs and ideas. That does not mean the Scriptures are at fault, but those that misuse them.

The problem with scriptures is they are written by many people, so they reflect many views. Some scriptures talk about how great it is to kill the children of your enemy. Another will say it is moral to kill homosexuals or non-virgin brides. Another will say that it is ok to beat your slaves so long as they do not die two days later. Another says to love your enemy. Another says that forgiveness is a virtue. Another talks about how great God's vengence is.

All of those things are in scripture. What Christians do is try to find ways to ignore the bad stuff and ways to pay attention to the good stuff. But that is very subjective. And that is why people are accused of "misuse."

If you misuse a power tool and get harmed, whose fault is it - the power tool or the person who misused it?

Heh. In this analogy, I think the problems are that the instructions are written in Engrish.

If 'faith' was able to be logically explained - would it still be 'faith'?

I would agree it would not be faith. But why is faith good?

This is not to say that 'faith' is illogical - because we operate on a form of faith in everything that we do. Even taken all necessary precautions, fully understanding how something works, there is still an amount of faith involved.

We operate with some ignorance about the world. But in general, we try to be as informed as we can about the most important stuff. Why is religion suppose to be the exception? Why is proof of the religion ignored when it is suppose to be the most important thing in our lives, yet we research the heck out of cereals and life insurance?

Every and all analogies can be broken down, a loophole found, if one looks hard enough - but for the sake of discussion, let's re-use my analogy and say all doubt is removed. You are in need of rescue, and there is a rescuer ready to save you - do you dictate to the rescuer how to 'save' you?

Ok. So in this analogy, I guess I am to assume that I know there is trouble and I see a rescurer who gives me orders. For the most part, I would listen to the rescurer. However, I may disagree with the rescurer and disobey. For example, say the rescurer said to kill my wife and use her body to help construct a raft. I may decide that is too morally wrong and reject being rescued.

Putting this back into the religious context, say I knew without a doubt there was a God and I knew if I did not get salvation, I would spend eternity in hell. Say my little sister engaged in pre-maritial sex before marriage. God's law was once to have her stoned to death in front of her parents. I would resist God. I rather spend eternity in hell with my integrity than living in paradise having done a great evil.

 

[Guest]

Ok. So in this analogy, I guess I am to assume that I know there is trouble and I see a rescurer who gives me orders. For the most part, I would listen to the rescurer. However, I may disagree with the rescurer and disobey. For example, say the rescurer said to kill my wife and use her body to help construct a raft. I may decide that is too morally wrong and reject being rescued.

Putting this back into the religious context, say I knew without a doubt there was a God and I knew if I did not get salvation, I would spend eternity in hell. Say my little sister engaged in pre-maritial sex before marriage. God's law was once to have her stoned to death in front of her parents. I would resist God. I rather spend eternity in hell with my integrity than living in paradise having done a great evil.

Who decides what 'evil' is?

Is it possible that the severity of the punishment was to protect someone from not doing the action? Is it possible the outcome of the action would be worse than the punishment?

Not to mention that God operates out of Grace - we are no longer to live under the Law.

 

[Quath]

Who decides what 'evil' is?

I think evil is a subjective description of morality. Though there are people who think it is a property of some things.

Is it possible that the severity of the punishment was to protect someone from not doing the action? Is it possible the outcome of the action would be worse than the punishment?

Infinite torture just sounds infinitely cruel. I can imagine a nicer deity who would rather remove people from existance rather than have them suffer. Why can I imagine a nicer God than the one that is in the Bible?

On some level, I have to be made aware of the consequences of my actions. If I am not aware, I will try to make the best decision I can make. There are many unanswered theological questions that reveal that Christians don't really know what the rules for salvation really are. For example, if you are once saved, are you always saved? Can you be saved while in hell? Can you go to heaven but not through Jesus (like a miscarried baby)? Do people who never hear of Jesus go to hell?

People can guess at answers, but if salvation is the most important thing we can accomplish on this Earth, why does God prefer to keep us ignorant?

Not to mention that God operates out of Grace - we are no longer to live under the Law.

Well, that depends on how you interpret the Bible. Jesus says the law is still in effect. Also, many Christians tend to promote the law like the Ten Commandments and scriptures against homosexuality.

However, even if we could ignore all the old laws, the concept still remains that God said it was morally good to do these horrible things. He demanded them. The deity who is suppose to love everyone said things like "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children."

 

[Guest]

Quath - I am enjoying our conversation, and while I will continue with it - it does seem from reading your posts and responses that you are looking for reasons NOT to believe.

I would suggest, you will always find them - not because they are there, but because you want them to be there.

 

[Quath]

Quath - I am enjoying our conversation, and while I will continue with it - it does seem from reading your posts and responses that you are looking for reasons NOT to believe.

I would suggest, you will always find them - not because they are there, but because you want them to be there.

I enjoy talking with you as well.

For me, I just don't believe and I am just trying to explain why I don't. I guess I don't feel I need more reasons than what I had a long time ago.

Imagine if someone told you that Tinkerbell was real and you not believing she exist is because you don't want to believe she exists. What can you say to that? I guess in a way that is how I feel about God.

 

[Rick W]

Imagine if someone told you that Tinkerbell was real and you not believing she exist is because you don't want to believe she exists. What can you say to that? I guess in a way that is how I feel about God.

No biggie there. I'd say believe what you want and walk away instead of arguing with him.

:smt102

 

[Quath]

No biggie there. I'd say believe what you want and walk away instead of arguing with him.

Most cases can be left like that. But you leave your child in the care of such a person? If this person believes Tinkerbell is real, do you think he would be someone you would want in public office making decisions for you? I think we would have a hard time doing some of these things. So sometimes it is hard to just dismiss the beliefs of the people around you.

My wife gets worried that a Christian will hear God tell them to come kill us. To her, they are already pretending to hear an invisible being, so maybe they will take it that extra step.

I think if we lived in a world where religions tended to have a "live and let live" philosophy, then I would not be interested in talking about them.

 

[Rick W]

So you're going to pursuade christians, one at a time, to turn his/her back on Jesus so you can leave your kids with them, make them execute the duties of office in your favor and so your wife won't worry some nutcase is going to pull a Charles Manson.

:o

/Potluck backs slowly toward the door keeping one eye solidly on Quath.

 

[Quath]

I realize it is extremely hard to ever convince someone their religion may have flaws. What I do find useful is talking to them to understand them. At that point, I can know who I can feel comfortable around and who I may have to watch out for.

Do you see my point at all? For example, if someone said that Tinkerbell and all faries were real, how comfortable are you with them? If you talk to them, you may find that their beliefs are mostly harmless. Or you may worry that they will want to sacrifice to a dark faerie. Or are you purely accepting of anyone, no matter what they believe?

 

[Rick W]

Would you support a ban on Christianity or in some way restrict the belief, the free worship of God and freedom of expression concerning religion?

Evolutionists have their own Tinkerbell but I don't believe they are going to go on some killing spree or something. To you God is as ludicrous as evolution is to me. See my point?

 

[Vic C.]

My wife gets worried that a Christian will hear God tell them to come kill us. To her, they are already pretending to hear an invisible being, so maybe they will take it that extra step.

She better stay away from mailmen who have neighbors with talking dogs too. The most interesting thing about David Berkowitz is he became a born-again believer while in prison.


Scott, please tell your wife, we are not the enemy. :-? Worry about the redical terrorists around the world who want you dead, just because you are not one of their kind. :-?

 

[destiny]

I find it very hard to believe Mrs. Quath believes such a thing. It would seem much more realistic to be concerned about radical terrorism (like Vic said); unless you are listening to fear mongering lies from some off base source.
That or someone has a very false idea of what true biblical christianity really is.

 

[Quath]

Would you support a ban on Christianity or in some way restrict the belief, the free worship of God and freedom of expression concerning religion?

Not for adults. I do have worries about children and religion though (such as some people belieiving that children shoudl not be immunized because God will protect them.)

Evolutionists have their own Tinkerbell but I don't believe they are going to go on some killing spree or something. To you God is as ludicrous as evolution is to me. See my point?

I think the difference is that evolution is a model of life that does not say what is right and wrong is. Yet God is suppose to tell people what is right and wrong and people act on that. For the most part, Christians tend to downplay messages from God as feelings or inner conservations. It gets scary when people actually hear God and they act on it.

Scott, please tell your wife, we are not the enemy.

She has several Christian friends, but she really hates to talk about religion. If it does come up, she gets very aggitated. She wants to pretend that it does not exist because she sees it as illogical and dramatic. And she associates that with trouble.

I find it very hard to believe Mrs. Quath believes such a thing. It would seem much more realistic to be concerned about radical terrorism (like Vic said); unless you are listening to fear mongering lies from some off base source.
That or someone has a very false idea of what true biblical christianity really is.

There was a Jehovah Witness would would stop by to witness to me. I would debate with him and we kept the conservation amicable. One time he came over when I wasn't there and my wife kind of flipped out on him. She told him that she wanted him far away from us as possible and to leave us alone (and not in a gentle tone either.) I haven't seen him since, but she was kind of scared. She said to me, "What if he suddenly hears from God that he should go kill some atheists? We don't need that."

On some level she knows it is unlikely, but then she will sometimes flip channels on TV and see a preacher in action. The stuff some of the say just makes her wonder if someone accepts some of this stuff, they are able to do anything (for good or ill). She sees it as just chaos I guess.

I wrote an article for the local newspaper about being an atheist. (Not sure if it will get published or not.) She is very scared for me to use my name because she is worried that a Christian will come over and key our car or light a fire or pick on our kids. Unfortunately, this is common enough that I can't just dismiss it. I told her it was unlikely, but she is worried about anay increase in risk to her family.

 

[Rick W]

"What if he suddenly hears from God that he should go kill some atheists? We don't need that."

The Christians are burning Rome!
Sorry, but I think we need to keep our eyes on the Neros out there.
I'll definately pray that God helps her with her aversion.

There are kooks out there from all walks of life. People who don't even adhere to any religion at all hear things, do things, think things that are well... just out there. We are social beings and with any society there are no guarantees of a risk-free or sterile life. We don't live in bubbles of protective plasma, we live among others of our kind. We can't live as hermits and we can't eliminate the risks of social living.