"If we claim to be without sin..."

[Heidi]

1 John 1:8, "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

I don't believe that Mary deceived herself when she claimed she needed a savior in Luke 1:47. But the catholics do because they claim she was sinless. So if Mary didn't deceive herself and admitted she sinned, but she was really sinless, then the catholics are calling her a liar.

Sorry, only God can claim to be without sin. So the catholics worship more than one God. And in their veneration of Mary, that have turned her into a liar and rotten wife for denying sex to her husband all his life. But that's what lies do to people. They hurt everyone they touch, including and especially, Mary.

 

[Atonement]

I don't want to slander any denomination. But I am also lead to believe that Christ is the only one EVER with out sin.

 

[Latin Rite Catholic]

Oh My dear Hiedi.

I'm not even going to bother to try and answer your accusation.

All I can suggest is looking into Catholic beliefs a little further, before making such sweeping statements. They make you look both ignorant and bigoted, which I know, you are not.

To better understand why Catholics believe as they do look here:

http://www.catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp


May God Bless You

 

[ZeroTX]

I will answer your concerns with a couple of questions for thought:

1) You stated, "Sorry, only God can claim to be without sin." Does the Bible state that to commit no sin is equavalent to being God?

2) Mary never claims, in Scripture, to be sinless. On the other hand, Mary doesn't say much in Scripture. Mary does indeed state that Christ is her Savior, as you mentioned. However, the Catholic teaching doesn't imply that Mary is a diety, but in fact, it is God's Grace that protects Mary from sin. It was God's Grace that created a pure vessel for Christ, pure and free of sin, to carry the very flesh of God. Does this seem blasfamous, for God to have a pure vessel? Certainly that doesn't mean she boasts of this purity, as it is God's Grace, God's power, not hers by any means. She certainly does not claim sinlessness. Then again, does Jesus himself ever claim to be sinless? He does not say it Himself. Yet, we certainly believe that he is, as affirmed by Paul in his epistles as well as Hebrews, etc. Certainly Paul teaches of this, because he knows it to be true, but how? It was the teaching of the Apostles, the Church, and he wrote it in his inspired letters, and it is our teaching and tradition, as we believe God to be without sin. The sinlessness of Mary can be attributed to the work of God and God alone. The misunderstanding of fundamentalism is that this is attributed to the power of Mary. As a human, that would be impossible. With God's Grace, all things are possible. Mary's Savior is our Lord Jesus Christ, God, the Holy Spirit. God freed her from sin to create a pure, sinless vessel for Jesus, a purity that remained in that vessel, the Ark of the New Covenant.

Beliefs about Mary are what took me the longest to understand, as they were so absent and so opposite in my protestant upbringing. The more I grow to understand, the more I appreciate how much more richness there is to our faith that I was denied as a child. Which, in a way, makes it that much more fulfilling now.

God bless,

-Michael[/quote]

 

[Atonement]

Jesus Himself surley never said He was without sin, but The Bible does..

2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Where in Scripture does it say Mary knew no sin??

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

[ZeroTX]

Jesus Himself surley never said He was without sin, but The Bible does..

2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Where in Scripture does it say Mary knew no sin??

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Wow, you're a real master debater, there. Did you actually read my response or did you shut down and go into defensive mode the instant something sounded different from the paradigm that you were always taught? As I already stated 1 postn ago, "...does Jesus himself ever claim to be sinless? He does not say it Himself. Yet, we certainly believe that he is, as affirmed by Paul in his epistles..."

You entirely missed my point or intentionally are deflecting from it, which is that the absence of a statement or claim of sinlessness does not exlude it from the realm of reality. Christ never claimed sinlessness, yet we believe he is, because it has been taught by the Church from the beginning. Mary never claimed sinlessness, but we believe that God's grace created a pure vessel for God in the flesh to come into the earth. God's power, God's work, God's will, God's truth, A pure vessel, by the Will of God and no other.

A lack of a specific Bible verse does not preclude something from being truth...

"2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

Absolutely! Thankfully, we agree that all Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for instruction, etc. How does what I said contradict this?... The Bible never says Scripture is the ONLY thing profitable for doctrine, reproof, correct or instruction, does it? Furthermore, this verse most certainly doesn't even refer to the New Testament. How could it, the author didn't know it would be used as part of such a collection and it wasn't settled until the Church, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, determined this. I find it humorous that fundamentalists & evangelicals cling to this verse, which even taken literally doesn't support sola scriptura.

Please re-read my original post above, actually taking in each word.

God bless,

Michael

 

[James1979]

The fact is that we know from Scripture that Jesus never sinned and became sinned who knew no sin. Mary was a sinful person just like every indiviual on this earth who has lived and who ever will come into existence(Romans 3). God's grace and mercy is upon all believers, not just Mary. The grace and mercy was given to them so that they wouldn't have to experience the second death, eternal damnation which was done by the Lord Jesus Christ.

And other books besides the bible is not trustyworthy and they are not inspired by God. God knows how to care for his word so that his truth will given to his people.