If you ignore Paul...look what you've missed!

[AVBunyan]

1. You miss justification by faith.
2. You miss understanding about the resurrected Saviour.
3. You won’t know where you will spend eternity.
4. You will not know whether or not you will go into the tribulation or not.
5. You will not understand you position in Christ.
6. You will not how to scripturally study the scriptures.
7. You will miss the gospel.
8. You will have no understanding of baptism.
9. You will not know whether you are a Jew, Gentile, or the body of Christ.
10. You will no understand God’s eternal the purpose the church, which is his body.
11. You will not what books are for you doctrinally.
12. You will not understand forgiveness.
13. You will take what is meant for Israel and apply it to you.
14. You will be confused on the gifts.
15. You will no know whether or no there really is a gap between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2.

Bottom line – you want understanding in all things – then….start with Paul.

2 Tim 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

God bless

 

[JM]

I agree, without the details explained by God thru Paul, the Gospel would lack many elements.

 

[Georges]

1. You miss justification by faith.

Not so....

2. You miss understanding about the resurrected Saviour.

Not so....

3. You won’t know where you will spend eternity.

Not so.....

4. You will not know whether or not you will go into the tribulation or not.

Not so.....

5. You will not understand you position in Christ.

Not so...

6. You will not how to scripturally study the scriptures.

Big not so....

7. You will miss the gospel.

Not so....

8. You will have no understanding of baptism.

Not so.....

9. You will not know whether you are a Jew, Gentile, or the body of Christ.

Not so....

10. You will no understand God’s eternal the purpose the church, which is his body.

Not so....

11. You will not what books are for you doctrinally.

Not so....

12. You will not understand forgiveness.

Not so...

13. You will take what is meant for Israel and apply it to you.

That is so...and should be so...

14. You will be confused on the gifts.

Not so....

15. You will no know whether or no there really is a gap between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2.

Doesn't have anything to do with your line of suppositions....and that is not so...

Bottom line – you want understanding in all things – then….start with Paul.

or you can go to any Gnostic Christian website and learn it also.

2 Tim 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

God bless

AV.....you missed it on just about everything on this post.....Man have you been sold a bill of goods.......if you really believe these 15 points....

 

[AVBunyan]

AV.....you missed it on just about everything on this post.....Man have you been sold a bill of goods.......if you really believe these 15 points....

You just demonstrated you are as blind as a bat coming in backwards when it comes to spiritual truths. :o

A bunch of "Not so's..." - great rebuttals - brilliant arguements - the thought you put into your rebuttal - boy, you convinced me of the error of my ways - I'm devastated! :o :-? :o :roll: :roll:

 

[TruthMiner]

Bottom line – you want understanding in all things – then….start with Paul.

I prefer starting with Jesus, the Truth and Word of God.

 

[AVBunyan]

Bottom line – you want understanding in all things – then….start with Paul.

I prefer starting with Jesus, the Truth and Word of God.

so, are y ou saying Paul's words in the scriptures are of less weight then the red words of Jesus?

Fine - Christ's words are certainly the word of God but you handgng on to older instructions - the Bible is a book of progressive revelation. Moses got more than Abraham - Abraham got more than Noah and Noah got more than Adam.

Paul got more than Peter, James, and John regarding the body of Christ.

Christ himself appeared to Paul directly and gave him more advanced revelation than what was given in the Gospels - can this be denied?

What am I missing here - I thought all in the Bible were God's words :o .

Now suddenly Paul has been degraded down to whatever???!!! :o

Why not continue sacrificing lambs and shaving your heads for vows? You know why you don't? You got later instructions.

Some of you folks are not reasoning here. It appears you think only the red letters really carry weight.

God bless

 

[TruthMiner]

double post. ignore.

 

[TruthMiner]

Bottom line – you want understanding in all things – then….start with Paul.

I prefer starting with Jesus, the Truth and Word of God.

so, are y ou saying Paul's words in the scriptures are of less weight then the red words of Jesus?

NO.

I am saying your premise to start with Paul and give him more weight is incorrect.

Not to mention, you really mean one should start with AV's interpretation of Paul.

Jesus is our foundation, not Paul. He is the beginning of all things.

 

[Georges]

AV.....you missed it on just about everything on this post.....Man have you been sold a bill of goods.......if you really believe these 15 points....

You just demonstrated you are as blind as a bat coming in backwards when it comes to spiritual truths. :o

A bunch of "Not so's..." - great rebuttals - brilliant arguements - the thought you put into your rebuttal - boy, you convinced me of the error of my ways - I'm devastated! :o :-? :o :roll: :roll:

Sorry AV....."Not So's" good enough for your thread.....don't need any more explanation....you wouldn't get it anyway.... :wink: besides...you wouldn't or won't be convinced.....no matter what I would respond to...

 

[Georges]

Bottom line – you want understanding in all things – then….start with Paul.

I prefer starting with Jesus, the Truth and Word of God.

so, are y ou saying Paul's words in the scriptures are of less weight then the red words of Jesus?

Fine - Christ's words are certainly the word of God but you handgng on to older instructions - the Bible is a book of progressive revelation. Moses got more than Abraham - Abraham got more than Noah and Noah got more than Adam.

You are joking.....right? I'm an apostate and you believe that Paul words weigh more than Christ's own? Progressive Revelation....what a joke...If that is the case you should know more than the Apostle Paul.....do you? So by Progressive Revelation you know more than Christ? Well the Apostle AV knows more than Paul and his student Jesus.... Well by your own words AV you have hung yourself.....

Paul got more than Peter, James, and John regarding the body of Christ.

Christ himself appeared to Paul directly and gave him more advanced revelation than what was given in the Gospels - can this be denied?

What am I missing here - I thought all in the Bible were God's words :o .

Now suddenly Paul has been degraded down to whatever???!!! :o

Why not continue sacrificing lambs and shaving your heads for vows? You know why you don't? You got later instructions.

Some of you folks are not reasoning here. It appears you think only the red letters really carry weight.

God bless

AV...........you goofed on this one.....

Will you recant your "Paul knows more than Christ" statement....? I'll forgive you the mis-speak if that what it was.....Progressive Revelation....now that would be an interesting thread....

 

[AVBunyan]

I am saying your premise to start with Paul and give him more weight is incorrect. Jesus is our foundation, not Paul. He is the beginning of all things.

Ok then – what do these verses say –

2 Tim 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
Why didn’t Paul say to consider what Jesus said in the Gospels?

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
Jesus didn’t fulfil the word of God – Paul did.

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Who manifested this mystery?

2 Tim 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
Why didn’t Paul say “Jesus’ gospel�

2 Tim 3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
Why didn’t Paul say, “Jeus’ doctrine�

Just some food for thought.

God bless

 

[AVBunyan]

I don't care for long posts and I know yoou may not read this but I don't know how to say it any shorter.

1. Paul, the man, is not superior to the man Christ Jesus. Col. 1:18 says Christ has the preeminence in all things and this includes Paul. I know Christ is deity and Paul was just a sinner used by God to reveal truths given to him by Christ himself.

2. What Paul wrote down is no more inspired than what James, Peter, Hosea, or the Gospels, etc. Then again what Jesus said in the Gospels is no more inspired than what Moses, Job, Joel, or Paul, etc. I understand that ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God and that every word of God is pure. There are no words purer than others. Then again some folks think that the red colored words in the Gospels carry more weight because our blessed Lord said them. Well, they are precious but what God gave to Job is just as precious.

I say this up front so some folks won’t say what I’ve heard a too often over the years:
1. “You elevate Paul over Christ and ignore Christ’s words!â€Â
2. “You only read Paul and think his words are the only words of importance and ignore the rest!â€Â

I trust this issue is clear and we can move on – I don’t care to deal with the above two issues that have been thrown at me before – thank ye kindly.

I used on references for space concerns – if you are interested you will look them up if not then you won’t. Won’t bother me – I’m sure you will be able to find some kinks in the armor – I just hope you won’t have tunnel vision looking to pick out the errors and ignore the blessings the scriptures have for you today in the body of Christ. Now, some will no have a clue as to what I’m talking about.

Now, let’s look at some assumptions:

1. Would you say that the NT is more relevant (Pertinent; applicable) to you than the OT?
I understand that all scripture is for and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: I also understand that “all these things happened unto them for ensamples:†I Cor. 10:11; I understand that “whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.†Rom. 15:4. But, do you find yourself trying to live by, let’s say, Lev 4:3 If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering. Yes, it is the word of God and we can learn that the offering points us to Christ and shows us some “behind the scenes†of God’s ultimate plan or His hatred for sin, etc. But let’s be honest these sacrifices are not as relevant to us as Jesus’ great discourse from John 14-17, or Paul’s exhortations to Timothy or Peter’s exposition on suffering.

How relevant are the first 13 chapter of I Chronicles to you? Is it the word of God? Of course - but how much time do you spend with it compared to John, Acts, Hebrews, Romans, etc. You spend more time with that latter because it is more relevant to you – nothing wrong with that.

Let’s head off some potential grumblings – Are there not some things in the OT that are relevant to us today? Why of course – We all know what Psalms and Proverbs can do for the heart. We all get excited when we read the power of God in the first chapters of Genesis. Job speaks to my heart. The Historical books are great reading and there is great application. How about this, “Stay in the war or you might get caught looking where you shouldn’t be looking and then taking what you shouldn’t be taking!†(II Sam. 11, 12) The study of Saul gives great insight into suicide.

Bottom line – the OT messages are sacrifices, the history of Israel, and a coming Messiah and earthly kingdom for Israel.
So, we see that OT has much relevancy but the NT is more for us today.

Let’s move to the NT where some folks start to grumble a bit.

The NT –
1. Does the book of Revelation have the relevancy to you as compared to John or Ephesians for example? Unless you are going through the great tribulation then Revelation makes for good studies on prophecy but Ephesians would be more relevant to your practical life today.

2. Did Jesus reveal some new truths while on earth or at least more details of truths hinted at in the OT? Of course – Jesus came with new truths. Did Peter expound on some hidden truths about Jesus sin Acts 2 that were new to the Jews at that time? Was Peter given new revelation from Christ in Acts 10 concerning the Gentiles getting in on some blessings where before they were counted as dogs?

Minor summary here – We see that even in the NT there is at least one area that may not have the doctrinal or practical relevancy to us today since it is for future folks who will be actively experiencing the book of Revelation. We also see that people in the NT were getting new revelation – Jesus handed some out to Peter and John at Patmos so the precedents have been set.

So, if Jesus handed out new truths and then Peter reviewed some new truths then why could not Paul have received new truths that were not revealed during the OT or even the Gospels? On another forum a poster said: “Paul taught nothing new that Jesus hadn’t already taught – it is all the same.†He was basically saying that Paul received no new truths and that he was not any different than the other apostles. Really? Let’s just see what the scriptures say about Paul’s uniqueness and importance

2 Tim 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

Let us put our tennis shoes on and run with this for a bit. Did Paul get new and special truths that were not known previous to his ministry? Was Paul’s ministry special?

1. Paul was the apostle God chose to be sent to the Gentiles: Acts 13:47
Paul was sent to the uncircumcism. Gal 2:7
The other apostles were given a different ministry – they were sent to the circumcism. Gal 2:9
Even Christ was not sent to the Gentiles - Rom 15:8

Are you a Gentile? Then Paul is for you.

2. How did Paul get his new truths?
He got them directly from the resurrected Saviour.
Christ appeared to Paul - Acts 26:16; 2 Tim 1:10 (this appearing was not the 1st coming); Gal 1:12

3. What truths did Paul receive regarding his ministry that were unknown before he received them?
a. Paul was given the gospel – I Cor. 15:1-5; Rom. 16:25; II Tim. 2:8
The disciples didn’t even know this gospel even when Jesus told them – Luke 18:38.
b. Paul tells of the saint being put in Christ’s body – Col. 1:17. Who talked about this prior to Paul?
c. Paul tells of the saint being seated in heaven places in Christ – Eph. 2:6. Who talked about this prior to Paul?
d. Paul fulfilled the word of God – Col. 1:25. Nobody else was told this.
e. Paul was the apostle that God revealed the mystery to - Rom. 16:25, 26; Eph. 1:9; Eph. 3:3, 4; Eph. 6:19 – this was hid before Paul.
f. Paul was given the truth of the body of Christ – Eph. 1:22, 23. Who knew about this before Paul?
g. Paul was the first to reveal that one was justified by the faith of Jesus Christ – Gal. 2:16.
h. Paul was the first to speak of being in Christ and Christ in you - Acts 24:24; Col. 1:27.
i. Paul as given the dispensation of the grace of God – not the other apostles – Eph. 3:2.

4. Now what other things were told by Paul or discussed by Paul that were not discussed before.
a. Paul was the only apostle who told you to follow him – I Cor. 4:16; I Cor. 11:1; Phil. 3:17; II Thess. 3:9; Phil. 4:9.
b. Paul was the only one in the scriptures who told you to study –II Tim. 2:15.
c. Paul was the only apostle in the scriptures who told you that if you wanted to understand all things you had to consider what he said – II Tim. 2:7.
d. Paul was the only one who told you to rightly divide the scriptures II Tim. 2:15.
e. Paul was the one where you learn the purpose of scripture – II Tim. 3:16, 17.
f. Paul was the only apostle who said men would be judged according to his gospel – Rom. 2:16.
One would think that he should find out what Paul’s gospel was?
g. Where did you here of anybody going to heaven prior to Paul – I said heaven – not paradise or the kingdom of heaven (Gospels and Jews).

Now what does this all mean for us? Paul’s ministry was unique to the Gentiles and the body of Christ. The truths about this day and age need to be judged by Paul’s ministry. Do you want to get understanding in all things? Then consider the words Christ gave to Paul first and go from there.
Am I elevating Paul? No but his words are sure important for us today and yet Paul is the least read, least understand and least quoted. It is though his words are second rate below those red words in the Gospels. DO you want to understand Christ’s earthly ministry more then start with Paul and you will not get confused when you go back under a Jewish setting. Do you want to understand the fullness of the resurrected Christ – then start with Paul.

God bless

 

[AVBunyan]

Will you recant your "Paul knows more than Christ" statement....? I'll forgive you the mis-speak if that what it was....

You misunderstand - never said Paul knew more than Christ - I meant Paul was given more revelation than Christ revealed during his earthly ministry. Christ didn't reveal all he knew during his life - God had a plan from before the foundation of the world - the details of much of those hidden truths were revealed by Christ's several appearings to Paul - this cannot be denied.

You folks are not following me - I'm patient if you are.

I'm not trying to downgrade Christ's teachings - I'm trying to do what Christ intended Paul to do for his folks - carry them further to body of Christ truths instead of Jewish kingdom truths meant for Israel. Why is this so bad?

Do you want to stay loocked up in Jewish/earthly kingdom truths all your lives? Why not move on where Christ would have you to - these truths are found in Ephesians and Colossians. My heart and desire is for you folks to see what God would have you to see.

God bless

 

[Georges]

Start with the "Gnostic" Paul......those "special knowledge" verses you are quoting are veiled gnositicism's......That' s progressive revelation? Hello......?

Here is the difference between Paul's gnositcism and the gnostic knowledge as recieved by the Apostles....Why the Apostles should be the example and Paul not.....

According to Paul.....

Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.


According to Eusibius in his "Ecclesiastical History":

In another passage surviving only in Eusebius, Clement of Alexandria (150-215 CE) tells us that the "Gift of knowledge" was imparted by Jesus to "James the Righteous, to John, and to Peter," and that these in turn "delivered it to the rest of the Apostles, and they to the Seventy, of whom Barnabas was one," (E.H. 2.1).


What does God say?

Deu 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.


The big difference.....Paul had no witnesses to his receiving the knowledge....

but....

According to Eusibius; James, Peter and John received the knowledge.......

and guess what? Eusibius isn't pro Judaism......it just worked out that he quoted the way it was.....

The knowledge that James, Peter and John recieved is obviously different than the knowledge given to Paul.....that's why John was required to write to the churches in Asia in Revelation....it was to unscrew what Paul screwed up....

 

[Georges]

Will you recant your "Paul knows more than Christ" statement....? I'll forgive you the mis-speak if that what it was....

You misunderstand - never said Paul knew more than Christ -

I just commented on what you typed..I highlighted it for you....I understood what you had written...you didn't understand what you were writing.....

I meant Paul was given more revelation than Christ revealed during his earthly ministry.

Are you kidding? Please stop now.....

Christ didn't reveal all he knew during his life - God had a plan from before the foundation of the world - the details of much of those hidden truths were revealed by Christ's several appearings to Paul - this cannot be denied.

Please.......really......stop......

You folks are not following me - I'm patient if you are.

Running out of patience with this......

I'm not trying to downgrade Christ's teachings - I'm trying to do what Christ intended Paul to do for his folks - carry them further to body of Christ truths instead of Jewish kingdom truths meant for Israel. Why is this so bad?

Yes you are.....you are superimposing Paul's teachings as superior to Christ's.....Got news for you pal....Christ will be ruling Israel in the Messianic Kingdom.....Paul was duping Gentiles away...the Jewish Christians knew better.

Do you want to stay loocked up in Jewish/earthly kingdom truths all your lives? Why not move on where Christ would have you to - these truths are found in Ephesians and Colossians. My heart and desire is for you folks to see what God would have you to see.

Yikes.........My heart's desire is to see you get rid of the foolish Progessive Revelation that has duped many Christians.
God bless

 

[AVBunyan]

Yikes.........My heart's desire is to see you get rid of the foolish Progessive Revelation that has duped many Christians.
God bless

I can "see" that you cannot "see" Paul so,therefore you cannot "see" the fullness of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ that Christ called Paul to reveal to the body of Christ.

Stay in the Gospels where you are more comfortable - be my guest. While you are at it I expect you to keep keeping the law.....

Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:

Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do;

I'm willing to bet you will not comment on the above for you cannot "see" nor understand what I just quoted.

God bless

 

[reznwerks]

Paul

Why would anyone trust Paul? The only claim to fame that Paul has is his supposed vision. No one can witness anothers vision so that pretty much invalidates any witnessess. Furthermore Paul never met Jesus in the flesh and knows nothing about him. Read all of what Paul supposedly writes and see if he references anything about Jesus. Many places Paul directly contradicts the sayings of Jesus. Lastly why would God reward Paul with inside knowledge? Paul hated and persecuted Christians and may have been there and joined in the stoning of Stephen. To accept Paul at his word means that God has rewarded a criminal for misdeeds. It's tantamount to our government using the mob to get valuable info in return for not prosecuting.

 

[Soma-Sight]

Why would anyone trust Paul? The only claim to fame that Paul has is his supposed vision. No one can witness anothers vision so that pretty much invalidates any witnessess. Furthermore Paul never met Jesus in the flesh and knows nothing about him. Read all of what Paul supposedly writes and see if he references anything about Jesus. Many places Paul directly contradicts the sayings of Jesus. Lastly why would God reward Paul with inside knowledge? Paul hated and persecuted Christians and may have been there and joined in the stoning of Stephen. To accept Paul at his word means that God has rewarded a criminal for misdeeds. It's tantamount to our government using the mob to get valuable info in return for not prosecuting.

Talk about an about face!

On minute he is decapitating Christians and the next he supposedly the leader of the movement!

Hmmm. I wonder if "infiltrate" could be an viable verb to explain this????

 

[Georges]

Yikes.........My heart's desire is to see you get rid of the foolish Progessive Revelation that has duped many Christians.
God bless

I can "see" that you cannot "see" Paul so,therefore you cannot "see" the fullness of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ that Christ called Paul to reveal to the body of Christ.

Stay in the Gospels where you are more comfortable - be my guest. While you are at it I expect you to keep keeping the law.....

Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:

Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do;

I'm willing to bet you will not comment on the above for you cannot "see" nor understand what I just quoted.

AV...... : Let me quit my flapping backward and open my eyes.....let me see.....Mat 28:20 seems easy enough......Jesus taught them to observe the Torah in the context he presented and lived. That was too easy....

Now...Mat 23:2-3.....AV....you crack me up....let me post the entire verse...

Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

The Pharisees knew and meted out justice and judgment as they were expert in the Torah.

Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Being experts in the Law (and correct in the judgment), Jesus is telling the people to obey what the Pharisees bid....Jesus is simply saying do what they say not what they do.....Jesus is NOT telling the people to NOT keep Mosaic Law.....He simply say's not to act like the self righteous Pharisees.

Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay [them] on men's shoulders; but they [themselves] will not move them with one of their fingers.
Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Mat 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Mat 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.


God bless[/quote]


Come on AV......show me where I'm blind here.....

 

[AVBunyan]

Come on AV......show me where I'm blind here.....

You mock progressive revelation. So - it appears you are saying everything in the gospels are for you to follow today?

Ok then - let's put 2 and 2 together for you - according to Matt. 28 and Matt 23 Jess told those folks to keep the law so...

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Enjoy keeping the law -

I'll do what God and the resurrected Saviour told me to do today - follow Paul.
1 Cor 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
1 Cor 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
1 Cor 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

2 Tim 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
And because I consider Paul then I have more understanding than you on body of Christ truths for today while you stay flounder blindly around in the Gospels and the OT - I glory not but in Jesus Christ here.

Again - because I consider Paul I have more understanding of Gospel and OT truths than you - I glory not but in Jesus Christ here.

Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Because I consider Paul then Rom. 15:4 comes alive and I can really see and enjoy the Gospels and the OT more.

Now let's talk about your blindness...

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: