Bible Study In the Flesh or in the Spirit?

[Tenchi]

Romans 8:8
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

​

For the born-again believer, there are only two basic sources of power: The Flesh or the Holy Spirit. It is from one of these two power sources that every believer is living out their days. Of course, God is the Ultimate Source of all life, sustaining the entire Creation by His will and power. Upon each person He's created, God has breathed the breath of Life, bestowing also finite intellectual and physical traits. But by his sinful choice, Adam in Eden caused a profound and destructive separation between humanity and God, by his evil choice introducing into the world the corruption and death of sin (Romans 5:12; 19; 1 Corinthians 15:21-22). The spiritual connection between God and Man was interrupted by Adam's sin, the natural, intimate communion between creature with Creator in Eden fractured (Genesis 3:23-24). As a result, though human beings are created and fundamentally sustained by God, they are born disposed to rebellion and sin and void of the spiritual life that is necessary to enjoying full fellowship with the One who is Spirit (John 4:24).

Entirely from the basic capacities given to them by God, many try to "walk with God." Having read the Bible and listened to many sermons, they have a good grasp of the shape of godly living and so they set out, drawing on the resources of strength, intellect and will they possess naturally, to be the person God has called them to be. These believers credit God for the pious quality of their living, though, declaring that their Bible reading, prayer, and church attendance is a testament to God at work in them, though they cannot say how, exactly, this is so. They simply assume that in some mysterious way, their efforts to produce a godly life are really a testament to God's power at work in them.

God's word, however, indicates that it is possible to be relying on the wrong power source entirely in living as disciple of Jesus Christ:

Galatians 3:1-3 (NASB)
1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Romans 8:3-4 (NASB)
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 10:3-5 (NASB)
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh,
4 for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses.
5 We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,

Philippians 3:3 (NASB)
3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,

Colossians 2:18-23 (NASB)
18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!"
22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

Like begets like: A cat begets a cat; a dog begets a dog; a duck begets a duck; and the flesh begets only more of the flesh. There is just one source of a godly life and that is God.

As the verses above declare, there can be no true godliness by the efforts of the flesh. This doesn't give pause at all to many Christians, however. It is by dint of their effort, their intelligence and determination, their human powers, that success in every other area of their life is achieved. Is it not obvious, therefore, that such effort must fuel their life as a disciple of Christ, too? By this reasoning, many born-again believers embark on a pursuit of godliness by fleshly means. But as Paul wrote to the believers at Rome, "Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." Why?

Romans 8:5-7 (NASB)
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

Continued below.

 

[Tenchi]

The flesh pursues God only so far as it is served in doing so; it's piety, it's religious activity, is always ultimately aimed at itself, not God. And when the flesh is hindered in satisfying itself by "Christian living," a divergence from God's will and way inevitably occurs. Sometimes, this divergence is hidden, secret; sometimes it manifests in complaint, and strife, and division. The flesh is never content in sacrificial service that is not acknowledged and applauded; the flesh will not suffer persecution and injustice in silence, patiently trusting to God; the flesh will not love as God loves if there is no positive reciprocation; the flesh will not yield up intensely-gratifying sin in pursuit of the joy, peace and holiness of the Lord. It cannot; the flesh is, by its nature, selfish, rebellious and sinful; it can no more be truly godly than a square can be a circle, or a cow can be a carrot.

For this reason, God does not accept fleshly effort from His children in their walk with Himself. He has placed His Spirit in each of His own and in the Spirit He intends they should find all they need to be who He has called them to be.

Titus 3:5-6 (NASB)
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

Ephesians 3:16 (NASB)
16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,

2 Corinthians 3:18 (NASB)
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

Romans 8:13-14 (NASB)
13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
1 Corinthians 2:12 (NASB)
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,

Galatians 5:16 (NASB)
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

The Life of Christ is in the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9), who gives to every born-again believer the Life that he is. How is it, then, that every believer is not overflowing with the Life and power of the Holy Spirit? Why have so many of them resorted to fleshly power instead? Mostly, the problem lies with ignorance and self-will. Too few Christians today know anything of the crucified life and living in daily submission to Christ. Since these things are necessary to a Spirit-filled life, believers who are ignorant of them have no choice but to rely upon themselves for the wherewithal to "live godly in Christ Jesus." They are confirmed in such living as they look around and see their fellow Christians carrying on in the same carnal vein; it appears to them that the normal Christian life is necessarily a flesh-reliant one. Well, such living is common among Christians today, yes, but it is by no means normal godly living.

How tragic it is that so many in whom God Almighty dwells in the Person of the Holy Spirit, stumble about in the corruption and weakness of the flesh, hypocritical and frustrated, thinking such experience is all that there is to knowing and walking with God. They could, instead, live in the power of the Spirit, transformed and manifesting the life of Christ in a way that would astonish (and, perhaps, repel) the average, flesh-fouled disciple of Christ today.

2 Corinthians 12:9 (NASB)
9 And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

Romans 6:12-13 (NASB)
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

1 Peter 5:6 (NASB)
6 Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you at the proper time,

Romans 12:1 (NASB)
1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.

2 Corinthians 4:6-11 (NASB)
6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves;
8 we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing;
9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed;
10 always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body.
11 For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.

 

[JLB]

The flesh pursues God only so far as it is served in doing so; it's piety, it's religious activity, is always ultimately aimed at itself, not God. And when the flesh is hindered in satisfying itself by "Christian living," a divergence from God's will and way inevitably occurs. Sometimes, this divergence is hidden, secret; sometimes it manifests in complaint, and strife, and division. The flesh is never content in sacrificial service that is not acknowledged and applauded; the flesh will not suffer persecution and injustice in silence, patiently trusting to God; the flesh will not love as God loves if there is no positive reciprocation; the flesh will not yield up intensely-gratifying sin in pursuit of the joy, peace and holiness of the Lord. It cannot; the flesh is, by its nature, selfish, rebellious and sinful; it can no more be truly godly than a square can be a circle, or a cow can be a carrot.

For this reason, God does not accept fleshly effort from His children in their walk with Himself. He has placed His Spirit in each of His own and in the Spirit He intends they should find all they need to be who He has called them to be.

Titus 3:5-6 (NASB)
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

Ephesians 3:16 (NASB)
16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,

2 Corinthians 3:18 (NASB)
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

Romans 8:13-14 (NASB)
13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
1 Corinthians 2:12 (NASB)
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,

Galatians 5:16 (NASB)
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

The Life of Christ is in the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9), who gives to every born-again believer the Life that he is. How is it, then, that every believer is not overflowing with the Life and power of the Holy Spirit? Why have so many of them resorted to fleshly power instead? Mostly, the problem lies with ignorance and self-will. Too few Christians today know anything of the crucified life and living in daily submission to Christ. Since these things are necessary to a Spirit-filled life, believers who are ignorant of them have no choice but to rely upon themselves for the wherewithal to "live godly in Christ Jesus." They are confirmed in such living as they look around and see their fellow Christians carrying on in the same carnal vein; it appears to them that the normal Christian life is necessarily a flesh-reliant one. Well, such living is common among Christians today, yes, but it is by no means normal godly living.

How tragic it is that so many in whom God Almighty dwells in the Person of the Holy Spirit, stumble about in the corruption and weakness of the flesh, hypocritical and frustrated, thinking such experience is all that there is to knowing and walking with God. They could, instead, live in the power of the Spirit, transformed and manifesting the life of Christ in a way that would astonish (and, perhaps, repel) the average, flesh-fouled disciple of Christ today.

2 Corinthians 12:9 (NASB)
9 And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

Romans 6:12-13 (NASB)
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

1 Peter 5:6 (NASB)
6 Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you at the proper time,

Romans 12:1 (NASB)
1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.

2 Corinthians 4:6-11 (NASB)
6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves;
8 we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing;
9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed;
10 always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body.
11 For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.

What’s your point ?

 

[Tenchi]

 

[miamited]

Hi Tenchi

I think it's good of you to offer JLB a hug. But I do agree with your understanding here. I believe that the entire purpose and goal of each believer's sanctification is getting to learn to trust and obey the Spirit over trusting and obeying the desires of the flesh. It's a process, that quite obviously is harder for some than others. But it's one of things I must be carefully mindful of, that we all, this side of judgment are born and grow up satisfying our fleshly desires. That once we come to be born again, that's when the sanctification process begins with the Holy Spirit indwelling that leads us into all truth and convicts us of both sin and righteousness.

It is the indwelling Holy Spirit which brings us under conviction when we've done something that is not pleasing to God. It is also the Holy Spirit that gives us confidence and satisfaction in doing good for others and loving them. His job, according to Jesus, is to convict us of both sin and righteousness.

As believers we have a choice, yes we easily read what it is that God asks of His children, but putting it into practice in our lives is really the goal of the born again believer who is indwelled with the Spirit. I must admit that sometimes in participating in these threads, that question comes to mind.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Tenchi]

But I do agree with your understanding here. I believe that the entire purpose and goal of each believer's sanctification is getting to learn to trust and obey the Spirit over trusting and obeying the desires of the flesh. It's a process, that quite obviously is harder for some than others.

Thanks for your comments!

Allow me to "riff" off of them a bit:

As the born-again believer enters into a more and more sanctified life, into an increasingly holy life, the writer of Hebrews wrote that they would "see God." (Hebrews 12:14) I think this is the ultimate goal of a life lived in the power of the Spirit and not in the power of the Flesh. The greater the holiness - sanctification - of a believer, the more fully and clearly they "see" God. Too often, though, Christians mistake holiness as the end goal of the Christian life rather than a deeper, richer knowledge and experience of their holy Maker. I'm not saying this is true of you; I'm just speaking in general here.

Regardless of the individual believer's weaknesses, God's power in them remains infinite and overcoming. If a believer is having a hard time walking in God's will and way, it is never because His power is lacking in some way. Usually, it's because they've been trying to walk with God by fleshly means rather than in the power of the Spirit and learning to abandon this approach can be very difficult if they've built deep habits of self-effort into their Christian living.

But it's one of things I must be carefully mindful of, that we all, this side of judgment are born and grow up satisfying our fleshly desires. That once we come to be born again, that's when the sanctification process begins with the Holy Spirit indwelling that leads us into all truth and convicts us of both sin and righteousness.

Yup. True.

It is the indwelling Holy Spirit which brings us under conviction when we've done something that is not pleasing to God.

Right. Sadly, many born-again believers get in the habit of ignoring the Spirit's conviction and, as they do, grow deaf and blind to it.

As believers we have a choice, yes we easily read what it is that God asks of His children, but putting it into practice in our lives is really the goal of the born again believer who is indwelled with the Spirit. I must admit that sometimes in participating in these threads, that question comes to mind.

Well, as I explained in the OP, the "putting into practice" the spiritual truths of one's new life in Christ is accomplished in one of two ways: in the power of the Flesh, or the power of the Spirit. If in the flesh, the result is inevitable spiritual compromise and collapse. If in the Spirit, the believer goes from strength to strength, transformed and filled, not with the strain and misery of Self-effort, but with the victorious, abundant life of Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 12:9-10 (NASB)
9 And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.
10 Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Romans 8:13-14 (NASB)
13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

I like your threads, or at least the two I've read so far.

But let me ask you something in regard to walking in the Spirit vs. walking in the flesh. What is your position on fasting in relation to the two?

 

[Hidden In Him]

If a believer is having a hard time walking in God's will and way, it is never because His power is lacking in some way. Usually, it's because they've been trying to walk with God by fleshly means rather than in the power of the Spirit

Ok, while my initial statement in the previous post still holds, let me scrutinize you a bit here. I've noticed you sometimes have this way of delineating things in ways that don't quite hit the mark for me.

About these two lines, if God's power were not lacking in their lives in some way then they would be walking in it; not that the power of God cannot be present, but that they are not making life choices to allow it to. In other words, I believe our choice of actions either invite the power of God to manifest through us or they don't, hence it is because His power actually is lacking in some way that we have a hard time walking in God's will. Our choices are determining the power we walk in, and without the power of God we cannot fulfill His will.

Could just be semantics, but I don't think I would explain things quite the way you did.

Blessings in Christ,
- H

 

[miamited]

HI Tenchi

Right. Sadly, many born-again believers get in the habit of ignoring the Spirit's conviction and, as they do, grow deaf and blind to it.

Good points. I think this happening is what the Scriptures refer to as 'quenching' the Spirit. Those who are born again do have the Spirit within them and if they step across the line of God's measure, then the Spirit causes a pricking of the conscience that something's wrong here. That's when our obedience becomes known. Do we follow the Spirit's prodding or do we say, "Well, just the once more and I won't do it anymore." Now we don't lose the Holy Spirit in that trade, but we quench his power within us a little more each time we do it.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Tenchi]

Could just be semantics, but I don't think I would explain things quite the way you did.

Vive la difference! We are not cookies cut from the same dough by the same cutter.

 

[Edward]

declaring that their Bible reading, prayer, and church attendance is a testament to God at work in them, though they cannot say how, exactly, this is so.

I can. You've zeroed in on the pertinant aspects, haven't you? God talks to us in His Word, we talk to God in prayer, and we worship corporately in church.

Nobody reads as much as they say they do. Many tell you they don't read it because blah blah blah. I tell them it gets easier, but none will listen. It's designed that way so God can speak to us through it. The Holy Spirit will imprint those words upon your heart and first, you will get Rhemas from scripture. Then you will begin to perceive His still small voice within you. I can not stress enough how important it is to read your bible. Every morning compare the state of your soul with what you see in scripture. Don't worry if sounds confusing, He will show you, and you will go, oh...and understand. Scripture is the primary way that God speaks to us.

Prayer is almost as important as reading. The more you taalk to God the more comfortable you get talking to Him so the more honest you can be. Besides, He already knows your heart. There's no hiding anything anyway. So when you've sinned and it makes you hesitatnt to pray...He already knows all about it. Just face up to it and ask forgiveness and for the grace to pass the next test.

Corporate Worship, or going to a regular church to worship is very desireable to God. Worshipping in private is still worship, but when a room full of believers all get together at once and lift up their voices and worship to God, then it's like there's a geometric progression of the joy that it brings to God because of the many souls one spirit in worship.
This one is the one that is a stumbling block to me. I don't have a church and pretty much stopped seeking one here. I had a great church in Colorado Springs, but since I moved east, Nothing compares to me. I've been in a lot of the different churches in this town but not lately. So he taught me that and keeps nudging me to go to church somewhere, lol.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Vive la difference! We are not cookies cut from the same dough by the same cutter.

Ok, if that's the end of the discussion then I guess I'll roll with it, LoL.

 

[Edward]

As the born-again believer enters into a more and more sanctified life, into an increasingly holy life, the writer of Hebrews wrote that they would "see God." (Hebrews 12:14) I think this is the ultimate goal of a life lived in the power of the Spirit and not in the power of the Flesh. The greater the holiness - sanctification - of a believer, the more fully and clearly they "see" God. Too often, though, Christians mistake holiness as the end goal of the Christian life rather than a deeper, richer knowledge and experience of their holy Maker. I'm not saying this is true of you; I'm just speaking in general here.

That's exactly how I understand it. And He will. It confirms it in John 14:21
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.../KJV

He hasn't maifested for me yet. I keep slipping. You see the mountain of God is a high and steep mountain. So the higher you go they better is the view, but more is the damage done to you when you slip and fall, because you fall from a higher place. He did speak audibly to me, one time. That time came to me coincidently at a time when I was being very diligent with my reading and praying and my walk. I doubt that was a coincidence, lol.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I had a great church in Colorado Springs, but since I moved east, Nothing compares to me.

That's because you moved East. If you were hoping for a Spirit-filled church, you would have had more chances finding one if you had gone South. Or maybe West, but the last direction I would have gone is East.

Bleh!

Even if the preacher were Spirit-filled, trying to get those people fired up is like...

 

[Edward]

That's because you moved East. If you were hoping for a Spirit-filled church, you would have had more chances finding one if you had gone South. Or maybe West, but the last direction I would have gone is East.

Bleh!

Even if the preacher were Spirit-filled, trying to get those people fired up is like...

Yeah, therein lies the story. It was not my idea to move back east to Ohio. God told me to and then He confirmed it so much to me that it really was Him it felt like it was stapled to my forehead.

I've been asked a few times? Who moves from colorful colorado to...ohio? It wasn't in my plans. But, God, what can you do Jonah? Say No?! I like to tink I can learn from others mistakes, lol. So here I am. Praise the Lord!!! I rejoice in Ohio unto the Lord because, He must have me here for a good reason. SOme's done but I don't think I can move yet, lol

Rocky Mountain Calvary Chapel in Colorado Springs was my church. The first time that I happened in was a weekday with no sevices going on but the church was open. I introduced myself to some of the staff and chit chat. Then I go to leave and get the unction to poke my head in the sanctuary for a look see, and two steps inside, I ran into a tangible presence of the Holy Spirit. He was all over that place. I was like, yeah, I'll be back here. That was an awesome church, God bless them. They nevr paased a plate. Never ever asked for any donations for anything. They got a bunch of free standing wodden lockboxes to give in with a slot and envelopes. And never asked for money but they have the biggest outreach into the city than almost any other church out there, just by faith. They have a donation center for clothes or whatever, a little soup kitchen and a food pantry. Colorado Springs is blessed for that church. (Austin Bluffs & Academy Blvd)

 

[Hidden In Him]

I ran into a tangible presence of the Holy Spirit. He was all over that place. I was like, yeah, I'll be back here. That was an awesome church, God bless them. They nevr paased a plate. Never ever asked for any donations for anything.

When the Spirit of God is present you don't have to beg for money. People want to give willingly because they know they are giving to the work of God. That's actually why tithing had to be reintroduced into Christianity in place of simple giving and receiving a few centuries into the early church era. They let the Presence fade, and as a result people stopped giving of their own volition, so they had to start forcing them to instead.

 

[Edward]

When the Spirit of God is present you don't have to beg for money. People want to give willingly because they know they are giving to the work of God. That's actually why tithing had to be reintroduced into Christianity in place of simple giving and receiving a few centuries into the early church era. They let the Presence fade, and as a result people stopped giving of their own volition, so they had to start forcing them to instead.

That's funny, and true. In fact that's what I was doing at the time, I had been reading my bible and it says it is ok to test the Lord in that way. So I was looking to test God and looking for a place to tithe too. When I walked in and got the Holy Spirit poured all over me I knew I had the right place, lol!

I had to be careful so my right hand didn't find out what I was doing. I'm sure she seen it as her money, lol. So I had to be slick about it to test God about tithing. And I got away with it, she never did find out. But as the test wound up, I am unable to say that tithing is not true because I watched God (figurative) open the floodgates of heaven in blessings and more work or more money. You can't outgive God!

That's why I got away with it at home! I gave that church quite a bit of money in tithes, and she never missed anything because more was added back and so there was no lack. I miss that church.

 

[Tenchi]

Ok, if that's the end of the discussion then I guess I'll roll with it, LoL.

Not trying to cut-off discussion, just avoiding contending over what you've called "semantics." The truth is what's important, not the precise selection and arrangement of words expressing it. The substance of a truth is another matter, though.

In other words, I believe our choice of actions either invite the power of God to manifest through us or they don't, hence it is because His power actually is lacking in some way that we have a hard time walking in God's will. Our choices are determining the power we walk in, and without the power of God we cannot fulfill His will.

This seems to be saying more-or-less what I'd pointed out in the OP. What you appear to me to be describing is the barrier within the believer, formed of their own choices, that hinders a full expression of the life of the Spirit in them. This isn't a description of some lack in the Spirit's power, though, of some weakness or deficiency in it, but an explanation of why there is a lack of a manifestation of his infinite, universe-creating power in a believer's daily living. What I was saying was that the Spirit's power is not lacking in its quality or character, though it may be very diminished, or even absent, in a believer's life.

 

[Tenchi]

I can. You've zeroed in on the pertinant aspects, haven't you? God talks to us in His Word, we talk to God in prayer, and we worship corporately in church.

He can, yes. But I know atheist and Muslim apologists who know the contents of the Bible far better than the average Christian. They know it well only in order to confound Christians who are Bible-illiterate; there is nothing of God in their study of the Bible. As Scripture itself says, "the word did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them who heard it." (Hebrews 4:2) It is possible, then, to study God's word and not hear a peep from Him.

I know of many nominal Christians who pray to a God they don't really know. This shows up in what they pray and the totally ritualistic manner in which they do so. Consider the prayer of the hypocrite of which Jesus spoke in Matthew 6: 5, 7. Prayer, then, is not necessarily a genuine intersection with, or experience of God.

Corporate worship is also not necessarily of God, or a genuine interaction/experience of Him. Speaking of the Pharisees, Jesus said they honored God with their lips but their hearts were far from Him. He also said that, in such a condition, they were worshiping Him in vain. (Matthew 15:7-9) I've met many believer over the fifty years I've been a disciple of Christ who were just as Dr. Vernon McGee described: "They don't lie in speech, but in song, every Sunday morning."

I can not stress enough how important it is to read your bible. Every morning compare the state of your soul with what you see in scripture. Don't worry if sounds confusing, He will show you, and you will go, oh...and understand. Scripture is the primary way that God speaks to us.

Amen. But, as I pointed out, it's possible to study it and not have experience God at all. How, then, does one distinguish Spirit-illumination from mere spiritually-empty Bible reading? How does one tell if they've truly encountered God while studying His word? You've touched somewhat on this in your remarks here.

Prayer is almost as important as reading. The more you taalk to God the more comfortable you get talking to Him so the more honest you can be.

Is "being honest" the primary purpose of prayer?

I don't have a church and pretty much stopped seeking one here. I had a great church in Colorado Springs, but since I moved east, Nothing compares to me.

This is a spiritually-dangerous situation in which to remain for any extended length of time. All born-again believers are, if at all possible, to be well-connected to a local community of fellow believers, edifying and serving the Body of Believers with their spiritual gifts. As they do, the stabilizing, correcting, instructing benefits of the Body are theirs. (Ephesians 4:11-15) If they don't, deception, spiritual compromise and sin inevitably creep in.

 

[Tenchi]

He hasn't maifested for me yet. I keep slipping.

God "manifests" daily to all of His children in the Spirit's conviction, illumination, strengthening, comforting and transformation of them. (John 16:8; 1 Corinthians 2:10-16; Ephesians 3:16; 2 Corinthians 1:3-5; Galatians 5:22-23; Philippians 2:13, etc.) Even a sinning believer can experience the Spirit's conviction. Check out my threads in this subforum about experiencing God.