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Independence Day

Relic

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from Medved Memo:
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On July 2, 1776, after long and wrenching debate, the Continental Congress voted to declare independence from the Mother Country and the next night John Adams went back to his rooming house in sweltering, sticky Philadelphia to write, by candlelight, perhaps the most famous letter in American history. Addressing his beloved wife Abigail in far-away Boston, he exulted in the birth of a new nation:

The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epocha in the history of America. I am apt to believe it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary festival. It ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires, and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forevermore.

You will think me transported with enthusiasm, but I am not. I am well aware of the toil and blood and treasure that it will cost us to maintain this Declaration and support and defend these states. Yet, through all the gloom, I can see the rays of ravishing light and glory. I can see that the end is more than worth all the means. And that posterity will triumph in that day's transaction, even although we should rue it, which I trust in God we shall not...

It may be the will of Heaven that America will suffer calamities still more wasting, and distress yet more dreadful. If this is to be the case, it will have this good effect at least. It will inspire us with many virtues which we have not, and correct many errors, follies and vices which threaten to disturb, dishonor and destroy us. The furnace of afflication produces refinement, in States as well as individuals...But I must submit all my hopes and fears to an overruling Providence, in which, unfashionable as the faith may be, I firmly believe.


The prophetic nature of his vision still makes the heart race and takes the breath away, some 231 years later. Predicting "illuminations" (the 18th Century term for fireworks!) to celebrate Independence Day from "one end of the continent to the other" remains almost freakishly prescient. When Adams wrote those words, the colonies occupied only a narrow, intermittent strip of settlements along the eastern seaboard; the very notion of a true continental nation looked wildly implausible, all but unimaginable.

The one mistake in Adams' view of the future involved his assumption that future generations would celebrate the Second of July (the date of the adoption of the resolution for Independence) rather than the Fourth of July (the date Congress approved the specific wording of the Declaration which Adams had helped his friend Thomas Jefferson to write.

In any event, those who insist on dismissing or denying the nation's deeply religious heritage should ponder the words of this "Atlas of Independence." Adams expects that we will celebrate the nation's founding through "solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty" (don't tell the ACLU!). After bitter, exhausting political battles in Philadelphia (corresponding to simultaneous -disastrous- military battles conducted by Washington's army in New York) he recognized the role of Providence in the ongoing struggle and, at a moment of exultation, proved himself not just a far-seeing leader, but a prophet.

May we celebrate our nation's beginning in a manner worthy of such founders.

Happy Independence Day!



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Was the rebellion against the English government a violation of Romans 13?
 
aLoneVoice said:
Was the rebellion against the English government a violation of Romans 13?

Why do you reply with questions? You get upset with Solo for replying to you with questions, yet you don't see that you do it. Maybe he was trying to give you some of your own medicine. :-?

So here, is some of your own medicine.

At that time, was the English government in line with a Godly ordination?


Does God "ordain" a wicked government? When men turn from Godly ways they are in oppostition to a Godly ordination.

Read the rest of the paragraph that comes AFTER Romans 13:1 . It goes on to describe a "God ordained" government .

Romans 13:3
For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

Ungoldy governments are not what we are to be in subjection to.

That chapter talks about a Godly ruler, not one who is a terror to good works! but one that is a terror to the evil.


Do you forget why there was a war with the English?

"to declare independence from the Mother Country "

And why did they seek independence from the Mother Country?

Surely , not because the Mother Country was behaving in accordance to God ordained principles? Hardly! There would never have been a war if the Mother Country didn't want to oppress and control the states and restrict their rights as a free people.


I wonder if you even have a patriotic bone in your body. :(


Being patriotic to our country is not undgodly, nor is it idolatry, and nor is it wrong to be in the army of a country to defend for good cause.

Being patriotic to a nation of people who are out to kill infidels or out to attack a people because they want freedom from oppression is ungodly! It is taking sides with evil, and it is wrong to be in an army of a country out to destroy others for it's own evil cause.




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Relic - The reason I ask so many questions is to find out what other people think and believe. As for Solo - that was an 'inside joke' so to speak between he and I. I believe he understand the reference I was making.

Was "Mother Country" any worse or ungodly than the Roman government during the time of Jesus and the apostles?

In regards to patriotism? I am grateful to God for where He has placed me at this time in my life - it would not matter if it was in the USA or the former USSR or wherever. I would still be about God's business.

I am beholden to God and the Kingdom of Heaven - not to a nation.

Also, I could argue that there are things THIS government does that is UNGODLY!
 
This 4th of July is going to be a more special to me this year than years past...
I spend allot of time with my son Daniel who is 7 years old...We spend allot of time reading books...He loves books...He loves the OT very much and together we have been though most of the OT and all the Gospels...But anyway, we read far more than the bible...We read allot of History books....

We just finished reading a book on the revolutionary war.....What a great book to read and what a great reminder to me...My son is very good at retaining what he reads and pays especially close attention to details...Details like when Washington crossed the deleware river that most of the soldiers not only were cold because they had no coats, but many did not even have shoes.....Many had no gloves, Many were starving....Many had not slept for many days....

I could go on and on about this wonderful war....Many folks do not know this, but if not for the Puritans, Folks folks Like Jonathon Edwards who lead the Great Awakening, we would not live in this country we call America...This would not be the home of the brave and the land of the free...It was because of those Puritan preachers that men had the strength and the faith to fight...

Jonathan Edwards never knew what an influence he truly had in America with his fiery Sermons and such, but he is certainly remembered by those who love history and strive for the truth....Why is this 4th of July special? Because my son is looking forward to celebrating his freedom and since he knows what it cost at such a young age, it is very cool to see him telling folks around him about our freedom and the Puritans who lead the way....
It is a shame that most people do not know that if it were not for God preparing all those ''blue coats'' through the preaching of his word, we would be under the oppression of the english

God Bless America...
 
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jgredline,

Thank you for sharing how you spend special/quality time with your son and describing how you make sure you are educating him on what a great country we live in and HOW and WHY it became that way.

All Americans, no matter what race or religion, should be aware of the struggle it takes to keep a country free from oppression and tyranny. Yes, even in this day and age, it is at times a necessity to war gainst those who look to oppress, we must fight to keep tyranny at bay... be it within our own house of congress, or elsewhere.



Yes, ... God Bless America!

Land of the Free!



God Bless You.






=================================



IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America



When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.  That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,  That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.  Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do.  And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

 John Hancock

New Hampshire:
Josiah Bartlett, William Whipple, Matthew Thornton

Massachusetts:
John Hancock, Samuel Adams, John Adams, Robert Treat Paine, Elbridge Gerry

Rhode Island:
Stephen Hopkins, William Ellery

Connecticut:
Roger Sherman, Samuel Huntington, William Williams, Oliver Wolcott

New York:
William Floyd, Philip Livingston, Francis Lewis, Lewis Morris

New Jersey:
Richard Stockton, John Witherspoon, Francis Hopkinson, John Hart, Abraham Clark

Pennsylvania:
Robert Morris, Benjamin Rush, Benjamin Franklin, John Morton, George Clymer, James Smith, George Taylor, James Wilson, George Ross

Delaware:
Caesar Rodney, George Read, Thomas McKean

Maryland:
Samuel Chase, William Paca, Thomas Stone, Charles Carroll of Carrollton

Virginia:
George Wythe, Richard Henry Lee, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Harrison, Thomas Nelson, Jr., Francis Lightfoot Lee, Carter Braxton

North Carolina:
William Hooper, Joseph Hewes, John Penn

South Carolina:
Edward Rutledge, Thomas Heyward, Jr., Thomas Lynch, Jr., Arthur Middleton

Georgia:
Button Gwinnett, Lyman Hall, George Walton

=====================





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aLoneVoice said:
Was the rebellion against the English government a violation of Romans 13?

No. I do not believe so, because God set up our government and I believe we were prophesied in the bible. If it was foreordained, then it is God's will. "Manifest Destiny".

The context of Romans 13 pertains to people who out of rebellion decide to go contrary to a God-given government---- not in the context of standing for what is right. If one knows the government is wrong, then do what Daniel did---- go to the Lion's Den.
 
tim_from_pa said:
No. I do not believe so, because God set up our government and I believe we were prophesied in the bible. If it was foreordained, then it is God's will. "Manifest Destiny".

The context of Romans 13 pertains to people who out of rebellion decide to go contrary to a God-given government---- not in the context of standing for what is right. If one knows the government is wrong, then do what Daniel did---- go to the Lion's Den.

Much evil was done under the guise of "Manifest Destiny".
 
tim_from_pa said:
The context of Romans 13 pertains to people who out of rebellion decide to go contrary to a God-given government---- not in the context of standing for what is right. If one knows the government is wrong, then do what Daniel did---- go to the Lion's Den.

Was the English government not a "God-given government"?

What gave the people the right to rebell against the "God-given government"?
 
OK, Lets say for the sake of argument that God did infact place the english government here prior to 1776...

Who is to Say that God did not replace the English Government with the United states of America Government? Did God raise George Washington to lead us to freedom? and establish a new Government....? Was Not God preparing the hearts of the soldiers through the Great awakening?
 
jgredline said:
OK, Lets say for the sake of argument that God did infact place the english government here prior to 1776...

Who is to Say that God did not replace the English Government with the United states of America Government? Did God raise George Washington to lead us to freedom? and establish a new Government....? Was Not God preparing the hearts of the soldiers through the Great awakening?

This is the tricky thing when we say that "this" government or "that" government is the one that God ordained.

Ultimately - God has ordained all governments and uses all governments to acheive His aim. However, that does not necessarily validate the actions of that particular government.

For example, I disagree with our current administration and government - yet I have been told on this forum that I should "submit" to this government in relationship to Romans 13. Okay - so perhaps Washington, et al, should have submitted as well!?

This discussion has brought back some memories from Bible College, where we did debate the American Revolution and if it was 'biblical'. Also, I went to a Bible College that agrees with Just War - so it wasn't so much a debate about War or No War - but the validlity of this one particular war and if it was biblical.
 
Let's say for the moment that America was a country ordained to exist by God. We then have a problem in that the trend these days is to kick Him out of the country He gave to us.
If however, the providence of God was not involved then in the biblical sense America is against God's will and the fathers of this country used His name in vain to found the country based on lies.

So is rebellion against God? Was the Exodus, a classic example of biblical rebellion, against God because a man, Moses, rose up against the higher authorities of Egypt? And were our nation's founders inspired by God or not?

If the founders of this country were God-inspired then that really doesn't mean England wasn't a God-given country. Look around... has this nation of ours kept the ways of God or have we, the country as a whole, supposedly under God, decided God is no longer needed? To tell the truth if I were to view this country objectively today I sure wouldn't think it was a country given by God.
 
Potluck
You bring up some many good points....Lets look at it another way...
Is there a country in the world that has influenced the spreading of Gods word more than the U.S.?
 
jgredline said:
Is there a country in the world that has influenced the spreading of Gods word more than the U.S.?

Biblical Israel.

Yet they too dropped the ball so-to-speak.
 
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Who ever said that a God ordained goverment could not be infiltrated with some corrupt people? That doesn't mean one should submit to what is ungodly. Should I disown my child because of one behavioral problem?

As a last resort, wars are a means to an end... The old testament is evident to that. David was a one man war with the Giant Philistine. There was none in the army brave to fight the giants but for David before he became king.


If Hitler wasn't stopped from his genocide? If Sadam wasn't stopped from his acts of genocide? The list goes on. Point being war is sometimes the only means of stopping the tyrant enemy from oppressing people.

Where it not for the government of the American people and it's allies, would we be a free America?

To this day we are once again in need of fighting to keep that liberty, being that our government has become full of corrupt politicians who want to take our freedoms away from us. It may not be a physical battle from within our own country againt those who have infiltrated our very own government, but there is a battle going on within our own country, a civil rights battle, none the less. We have politicians fighting for our rights and we have politicians who are out for big business only and who don't care about the rights of the common citizen. That's the war I'm talking about, and if people are not involved in rallying for the cause, then those corrupt politicians not going to be threatened by the people, they will do whatever they want. It's happening now, there is not enough outcry from the public to stop those corrupt politicians who have infiltrated our government for their own greedy and wicked intentions.

Our enemy is within and without America. Terrorist organizations are within and without America, they are out to change the very core of our nations standards and policies. IF things get worse here in America I wouldn't be a bit suprised if riots, once again, break out in parts of the country.

Physical wars are sometimes a necessity. And I believe God ordains governments to work as His agents in eliminating the evil intent of the enemy. Democracy is not evil... every person should have a right to what goes on within their own government. when tyrants try to take over the governing of a people.... sometimes physical war is necessary to be rid of them and their gang.


God ordained David to be king and he killed a giant after he was ordained but before he was king. Explain that one aLoneVoice.

Like I said before.... being willing to die for your religion is a part of being willing to die for your rights to being a free people within your own country. Our religion IS based on freedom of the people. And in order to keep it that way, we should be willing to fight an enemy who comes to steal our liberties from us, if need be, as a last resort.... sometimes war is the only option. Hitler was one example of having a necessary war. Pearl Harbor was another. Vietnam may have been a mess of a mistake to some, but was freedom gained for the south vietnameese? Are they not so threatened by the north as they once were? Kosovo, was that a disaster? Some think it was, others think it liberated a people from tyrants. What about other countries that are now free from tyranny because of a physical battle that was won? Is that not God ordained war? Was David killing Goliath a God ordained governing of a people?
The Philistines were a horrible threat, something had to be done.



I am wondering, Are you the one who said a while back that if a person broke into your house and threatened the life of your wife that you would rather let them kill you and your family than fight to defend them?


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Question:

What does God think about war?




A Nation at War
by Dr. Charles Stanley

Ecclesiastes 3:8 states that there is a "time for war and a time for peace." In these times of warfare, we often ask, "How should we respond? What should be our attitude?" We will find biblical answers for these questions when we explore the ultimate issue: What does the Word of God say about warfare?

When a nation goes to war, God’s people need to fully understand their heavenly Father’s viewpoint about this matter. Naturally, God is not excited about war. He does not enjoy bloodshed and vengeance. However, He is dealing with a world of people who have a fallen natureâ€â€sinful, wicked and vile. Romans 3:10-11,15-17 describes mankind without God: "…there is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God. . . . Their feet are swift to shed blood, destruction and misery are in their paths, and the path of peace they have not known."

God battles with people who oppose Him, who fight against Him and His followers. So, even though He hates war, God is not against it. Throughout the Old Testament, there are examples of God using warfare to carry out His plans, to punish the wicked and preserve His people (Deut. 9:4-6; Deut. 20; Jer. 5; Numbers 33:55-56). You may think, "How could God do that?" He says in Isaiah 55:9, "My ways are higher than your ways and My thoughts are higher than your thoughts." God has divine reasons for choosing to use war as a vehicle to accomplish His will.

In Scripture, God clearly establishes the government’s responsibilities and authority over us, as well. In Romans 13:1 and 4, Paul writes, "every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. . .for it [the government] is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil."

The government is ordained by God with the right to promote good and restrain evil. This includes wickedness that exists within the nation, as well as any wicked persons or countries that threaten foreign nations. Obviously, there are times when a country should not go to war; but there are also times when, if a nation does not do so, they suffer the consequences. Therefore, a government has biblical grounds to go to war in the nation’s defense or to liberate others in the world who are enslaved.

You may think, "Well, how do we reconcile that with what Jesus said about loving our enemies and turning the other cheek?" (Luke 6:27-30) In that passage, Jesus was speaking to us as individuals. If someone treats us badly, we should love him anyway. We can pray for our enemies, and do good to those who hate us. The way someone treats an individual is one thing; the way he treats an entire nation is a completely different issue. The Bible teaches that it is the responsibility of the government’s leaders to protect the nation against those who would destroy it.

The Bible also instructs citizens in the proper way to respond when their country goes to war. For example, it is a violation of the Word of God to refuse to defend your country if ordered. Recall Romans 13:1-2: "every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God. . .Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves." According to this verse, we’re to be submissive to the laws of the land. The only reason we have for disobeying the government is if it requires us to behave in a way that clearly violates some specific verse or command of God (Acts 5:27-32).

Someone might say, "But I can’t go to war because shooting the enemy would be murder, and the Bible says ‘you shall not murder’"(Exodus 20:13). Actually, when a man in combat shoots his enemy under the command of the government, without personal hatred, he is not committing murder. Instead, he is simply being obedient to the purpose for which he is fighting. To commit murder, a person must have vengeance and hatred against another. Many men have died on the battlefield without animosity toward anyone--they were fighting for a cause, defending or freeing their land. Therefore, if called, it is a citizen’s national and biblical responsibility to defend his country.

Even if we do not actually participate in the fighting, we are also called to create unity and harmony within the country. We need to support whatever decisions our nation makes, as long as they do not directly violate the Word of God. How can we justify the protests and marches against war? I understand that, in America, for example, we have a right to express our different opinions. However, there comes a time when our personal opinion is not a priority. The only reason we have the freedom to protest in this country is because thousands were willing to die for that liberty in the past.

Instead of resisting, we should offer to serve the war effort in any way possible during this time, especially by encouraging and helping the families of our soldiers. And the most important and powerful thing we can do for our nation is pray. Pray for our President, leaders, military, and even our enemies. God honors the prayers of His children and expects us to support those in authority.

Despite the many different opinions and philosophies about war, the most important consideration is God’s viewpoint. Throughout Scripture there is evidence that God favors war for divine reasons and sometimes uses it to accomplish His will. He has also given governments and their citizens very specific responsibilities in regards to this matter. This is a frightening time for all of the world’s citizens, but it is also a time for God’s people to rise up as a unified body against the global threat of evil and terror. I challenge you, as a child of God, to respond to this conflict as He desires: with an attitude of prayer, submission, and an unwavering dependence upon your heavenly Father.

â€â€Charles F. Stanley


Copyright © IN TOUCH MINISTRIES. IN TOUCH Magazine. Used with permission. In Touch Ministries, P.O. Box 7900, Atlanta, GA 30357. All rights reserved. http://www.intouch.org


source: http://www.rapturealert.com/warfaq.html


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This is can be viewed as a very ironic situation.
I don't believe anyone wants war. Not the majority of people anyway, believer and non-believer alike. And we definately have the freedom to speak out against violence AND the military. But the irony comes in when it's the military that enables us the freedom to do so in the first place.

I seriously doubt anyone who speaks out against an oppressor's military or actions thereof, does so for long.

It's hard for me to believe God is "ok" with oppression since He led His people out of Egypt, which by the way, is a rather "big" issue among believers. And Moses killed a guy protecting his people from the oppression he rebeled against. Yet, there's not a word from God condemning Moses. Not as far as I know of anyway. But it was a different story concerning Cain and Abel. I'd have to say motive figures in with the judgment as relic's post demonstrates.
 
jgredline said:
Potluck
You bring up some many good points....Lets look at it another way...
Is there a country in the world that has influenced the spreading of Gods word more than the U.S.?

I think that is hard to judge. What would the criteria be? The number of 'converts' or the influence of the converts. By that last choice, look at the early church - one could aruge that the thousands upon thousands that were added would have had the greatest influence beceause they spread the Gospel to the outer most parts. However, they might not have had the most number of converts. However, we are all the fruit of their ministry.

Not to mention that the church is experiencing greater growth outside of the US than inside.
 
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