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Independence Day

Relic - what I said is that I would sacrifice myself to protect my family - but that I would not use physical violence to defend myself.

You see, the issue for me is how can one express unconditional love to others, including our enemies, through the use of violence - especially deadly violence?

All the examples that have been given through the OT have one common thing - they were God ordained and God ordered.

We can "think" actions of today's military and government are God ordained, but do we know? The outcome does not necessarily justify the means of the action taken.

Not to mention that there were rules to waging war, and sanctifying rituals for the military. Also, when Israel went to war it was clear that they were the underdog, with less military might then their enenies, less equipment, etc - thus showing that it was God doing the 'fighting'. The King was not to take a census of His people, His army, and was not to reap the spoils of war.

If you want to use the OT to justify military action, then I would suggest that you need to follow all rules of military action in the OT.

Lastly - I would ask "Where does our Freedoms come from"? Ultimately our freedom comes from God - not a piece of paper and not through the sword. It is God who will sustain a believer, regardless of the situation that believer is found in.

Do believers around the world not speak out about the tryanny they face? Do believers around the world, where Christianity is illegal, still spread the Gospel?

The church has flourished more under persecuation, that not.

He who loses his life for His sake......

He who saves his life for his sake.....
 
aLoneVoice said:
Much evil was done under the guise of "Manifest Destiny".

Was there evil done when the ancient Israelites took over the land of Canaan? They left Egypt (like we left England) and expelled the inhabitants of the land of Canaan (well, not all of them, and that became their problem).

Over here in America the same thing happened.

Now, what does God say in His word about the Israelites?

Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime....

2 Samuel 7:10

They were already settled in their land when this promise was given to David. "A place" is not "this place" and therefore God spoke of another place where He would settle Israel. And this place became the origin of "many places" as they spread abroad and colonized (Genesis 48:19, Genesis 35:11, and oodles of other scriptures)

So the moral of the story is that if God appointed it, then prophesy must be fulfilled.
 
tim_from_pa said:
Was there evil done when the ancient Israelites took over the land of Canaan? They left Egypt (like we left England) and expelled the inhabitants of the land of Canaan (well, not all of them, and that became their problem).

Over here in America the same thing happened.

Now, what does God say in His word about the Israelites?

Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime....

2 Samuel 7:10

They were already settled in their land when this promise was given to David. "A place" is not "this place" and therefore God spoke of another place where He would settle Israel. And this place became the origin of "many places" as they spread abroad and colonized (Genesis 48:19, Genesis 35:11, and oodles of other scriptures)

So the moral of the story is that if God appointed it, then prophesy must be fulfilled.

tim - I do not agree with your intrepetation of "British-Israelism". To be honest, I believe one way of testing intrepetations is by the fruit of the doctrine. British-Israelism has not produced good fruit - it has produced many bigoted and racist fruits. I am not saying that you are these things, but rather look at the theology and what it has produced.

I also do not ascribe to the "Replacement Theology" either.

However, what evil was done by the Israelities when they were following the commands of God?

Here in America, under "Manifest Destiny" - what were the commands of God?
 
aLoneVoice said:
tim - I do not agree with your intrepetation of "British-Israelism". To be honest, I believe one way of testing intrepetations is by the fruit of the doctrine. British-Israelism has not produced good fruit - it has produced many bigoted and racist fruits. I am not saying that you are these things, but rather look at the theology and what it has produced.

I also do not ascribe to the "Replacement Theology" either.

However, what evil was done by the Israelities when they were following the commands of God?

Here in America, under "Manifest Destiny" - what were the commands of God?

Well, you have your right to believe what you want, but I must say that then a lot of scripture goes unanswered for, such as the scripture I already gave, and it remains unfulfilled (either that or it has to be wrested into saying something completely else). In addition, God failed His purpose miserably because He stated Israel was supposed to be the light-bearers of the nations and instead He changed His plans to have Gentiles do that job?

As for myself, I can't sweep myriads of scripture under the rug, nor can I believe that God would say something and do something else as mine is big enough to carry out His will.
 
aLoneVoice said:
Relic - what I said is that I would sacrifice myself to protect my family - but that I would not use physical violence to defend myself.

If it was a case of "taking a bullet" to preserve the lives of your family that would work, if there wasn't to be any more aggression toward your family. You can't defend them if you're dead. Therefore I would think it prudent to use violence to protect yourself. If it was just you that was threatened well, sacrifice yourself if you wish.

aLoneVoice said:
Lastly - I would ask "Where does our Freedoms come from"? Ultimately our freedom comes from God - not a piece of paper and not through the sword. It is God who will sustain a believer, regardless of the situation that believer is found in.

I agree that ultimately freedom comes from God. But how is that done? Moses led the people out of Egypt doing the will of God, to free the people. He worked through Moses.
God promised them a land of milk and honey. When they got there how was it given? He used the people to gain possession of the land. Again, He worked through Joshua, a man, giving him wisdom to do so. They didn't just walk into a land and setup housekeeping.

The point is one just can't sit on his thumbs waiting for God to do something. If it is to be then He will use you to get it done. Therefore there will be effort on your part no matter what the case may be. God provided me a job. But I had to do things to get it. Ultimately it was by God's will but there was work to be done on my part.

"It is God who will sustain a believer"
Again, how is that done?

A fellow was stranded on a rooftop during a flood. Another guy in a rowboat came by but the fellow said, "No, God will provide." A helicopter soon came to pluck the hapless fellow off his crumbling home. But again the fellow said, "No thanks, God will provide."
He drowned. Standing in front of His maker he asked God why He didn't save him. God said, "Well, I sent a rowboat and helicopter to save you from the rooftop."

God uses people to do His will. Ultimately freedom comes from God but one can't expect freedom without doing something. Joshua didn't say to the people, "Wait, God will provide", and sit on the banks of the Jordan waiting for something to happen.

aLoneVoice said:
Do believers around the world not speak out about the tryanny they face? Do believers around the world, where Christianity is illegal, still spread the Gospel?

Yes they do, by NOT abiding by the rule of the land and/or by doing things against the higher authorities. In short, by rebellion.

aLoneVoice said:
We can "think" actions of today's military and government are God ordained, but do we know? The outcome does not necessarily justify the means of the action taken.

No, we don't know. And if scripture didn't tell us about Joshua or even Nehemiah (trowel in one hand and a sword in the other) we wouldn't know either.
We don't know. If somehow God would tell us by a booming voice recorded on tape then there would be no question or debate. But that doesn't happen. If however, it's ordained by God neither me or you could stop it and we would find ourselves rebeling against the will of God if we tried.

We don't know. And that's the problem. Therefore we do as scripture tells us, we do as the country's authority says to do and they will be accountable.

Going by this premise, to follow scripture one could very well find himself in quite a quandry. Suppose you lived in Iran and the authority told you to go to battle against their enemies. Do you go? Yes. Again, by this premise you are compelled go into combat as commanded. You could say the outcome would serve a greater purpose than yours whatever that outcome may be, by the will of God, by His purpose. We don't know how He will use the outcome to His favor. So you go into battle as you are supposed to do.


Bottom line:

aLoneVoice said:
Was the rebellion against the English government a violation of Romans 13?

Would your rebellion to go to battle be a violation of Romans 13?
 
Potluck - but when the authorities command something that violates the rule of God - we are to obey God, and not man. Acts gives a clear example of this.

Jesus tells us to love our enemies, to turn the other cheek, not to kill them or battle them.
 
Yes aLoneVoice, I agree.
Yet, how do you know for sure "when the authorities command something that violates the rule of God"?

And if you don't go into battle as commanded are you in violation of Romans 13??



Who was Christ talking to? The nation as a whole or among them teaching the common people about everyday living concerning themselves as individuals? He wasn't speaking to the authorities of the land standing or sitting in a large hall full of diplomats and dignitaries who represent a nation. Again, those authorities will be held accountable.
 
Fortunately there's no draft in this country. We don't know that those who join the military voluntarily are led by God or not. There are christians in the military. And of course there are non-believers, but we don't know how God touches the hearts of individual believers.

IF the draft came back then by scripture you would be compelled to go to war. You could use the other scripture concerning "when the authorities command something that violates the rule of God" to get out of it.
Again, how do you know which is the way to go? It's your choice isn't it? How God leads you. But you can't condemn those that do go to war and you shouldn't judge the authorities who order it. Both are up to God, not you.

You can use whatever scripture suits you whether it's "authorities command something that violates the rule of God", citing Christ's teachings or being under authority of those in power over you, Romans 13. But in either case you must be sure it's God speaking to you or not and don't judge others by how you as an individual are led.

I think you said something like, "It's not either/or but both" a while back. So let it be with how God leads you, on an individual basis.
 
OK, Let me throw a
apewithmonkeywrenchmdcllj4.gif
into it....

Where does Gods Sovereignty and ''or'' mans Free Will fit into Romans 13 and all of this?
 
jgredline said:
OK, Let me throw a
apewithmonkeywrenchmdcllj4.gif
into it....

Where does Gods Sovereignty and ''or'' mans Free Will fit into Romans 13 and all of this?

Where's Heidi when you need her? :lol: :-D
 
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