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Interpreting the Scriptures

Drew

Member
In this thread, I invite readers to discuss a specific issue in relation to interpreting the Scriptures.

A certain position “X†in respect to some doctrine “Y†is often a critically unexamined starting point for the wannabe exegete. This starting position is not the result an entirely objective “let’s consider all possibilities†analysis of the Scriptures in respect to doctrine Y. Instead, through a kind of mysterious osmosis, the person has come to believe that X is true about Y. Perhaps the person has been influenced by the prevailing view within their denomination. Perhaps they have “psychological†inclinations to believe X is true. As a simple example, a person who has been raised by stern, domineering parents who laid down the law re dating might “rebel†by too easily accepting arguments that pre-marital sex is not really prohibited in the Scriptures.

Suppose that such a person is then challenged that scriptural text W speaks against X. I suggest that the person will effectively (although subconsciously) ask themselves the following question: Is there any way at all that I can interpret W so that it works with X, no matter how awkward and forced that interpretation is? If this kind of thing happens, and I think it often does, this is a recipe for error.

Consider the view that the earth is the center of the universe. When evidence started to mount that this was not so, die-hard “earth-centic†people invented complex modifications to their theory in order to incorporate the new data within the earth-centric view. You might be interested to know that this can indeed be done. If you are willing to believe that planetary bodies do “loop the loopsâ€Â, etc, you can indeed hold to the view that the earth is indeed the centre of the universe.

Needless to say, I think we would all agree that the better approach is to stand back from position X – let it go at least for the moment – and then consider whether there is not another position Z that better explains all the relevant texts. It will not be the end of the world if your “working†position turn out to be weaker than an alternative.

I do not think that what I have written here is particularly controversial so this may not generate a lot of discussion. Just something I wanted to put forward.
 
I agree that this does happen a lot. And, a lot is gained by letting go of one's positions and studying the issue with a 'clean slate attitude'.

For instance, the idea of women pastors. I totally 'knew' and 'understood' that women pastors were totally against scripture, and the only way one could justify allowing women in the ministry was to deny the inerrancy and inspiration of the scriptures. That is, until I studied the issue without prejudice. Then it opened up quite a bit of insight that often gets overlooked.
 
I'm pretty sure this wont be a topic discussed here before, but when you mentioned positions that aren't often thought of something came to mind which I have heard few people discuss. And I hate to disappoint but I really don't have a developed view on I myself, but since it seems you wanted to stir discussion with a fresh perspective allow me to interject and observation I have made in the Scriptures.

Paul as an apostle asserts his authority in the name of Christ to legitimize the Gospel, often by his own impeccable testimony. This indeed does support his right to be an Apostle since as he says, he had "labored more than them all" (by God's grace). And in yearning so deeply to lead them to Christ he would "wish [himself] accursed and cut off from Christ" on account of them if it might save them. Through his great passion he would even give his life up for them, and being an impeccable servant of Christ admonshes them to follow in his example, even as a "type" to them (Phil. 3:17 - Greek). This is all to be admired and respected as his position as an apostle and a great servant to all, yet he also seems to have unique sense of Fathership over them. Paul says to Philemon, "Not to mention to you that you owe to me even your own self as well" (Phil 1:19) and to the Corinthians, "Are you not my work in the Lord?" (1 Corinthians 9:1) and "For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel" (4:15). In some sense it seems that some can be indebted to an Apostle, but in what sense? When a preacher preaches the Gospel today the person who hears it and is saved does not owe anything to the pastor, but rather to God for using his vessels to preach the truth. Yet this may be different. Was there a special authority Apostles had in establishing the Church in the Spirit (such as in Acts when they layed on hands to impart the Spirit) and salvation (with possibly both "special operations" now done away with, now that Apostleship does not continue)?

John Macarthur seems to suggest something that may take it too far though. On Philemon 1:19 he comments:

Philemon owed Paul something far greater then the material debt paul was offering to repay, since Paul had led him to saving faith, a debt Philemon could never repay.

Now though Paul was not misusing his authority in any way, if this was merely a reference that he had been an instrument in bringing him to salvation then this would be unfounded "leverage". No one could say on those grounds "you owe me" which would be selfish, thus I am inclined to think something else is here that was unique to the Apostles by a special dispensation of Spiritual Fatherhood to bring people to Christ. In this same vein of thought the Apostles retained the right to alternatively deliver one to Satan, if you will remember. It seemed they had agency or decision in matters of salvation to a degree! Though of course Christ could never be divorced from this context, the Apostles had such authority that souls seemed to be naked before them as even Jesus when on the Passover "knew what was in the heart of all men". And indeed Jesus told his disciples that they would do greater things than him and that they had power to bind and loose. Corporately as a Church we to some degree have these operations but not as the Apostles. The question: was this a special agency distibuted to the Apostles for the founding of the Church?

Your thoughts?
 
handy said:
I agree that this does happen a lot. And, a lot is gained by letting go of one's positions and studying the issue with a 'clean slate attitude'.

For instance, the idea of women pastors. I totally 'knew' and 'understood' that women pastors were totally against scripture, and the only way one could justify allowing women in the ministry was to deny the inerrancy and inspiration of the scriptures. That is, until I studied the issue without prejudice. Then it opened up quite a bit of insight that often gets overlooked.

This would also be a good topic to discuss the Biblical view on. I have yet to be convinced that it is the place of a woman to lead a Church, although Paul clearly instructs that older women should instruct the younger ones, thus become leaders in this respect. And though I do not believe it is the place of women to lead in the Ministry, if the man fails to take the place God has called him to (thus a fault on his part) the woman can step up, as Deborah did in the time of crisis - but to the shame of Barak - because he did not have courage in the Lord's strength. Thus Deborah agreed but warned, "I will surely go with you; nevertheless, the honor shall not be yours on the journey that you are about to take" (Judges 4:9) since he insisted that he would not go without her. Women are to have a symbol of authority on their head and can even be prophetesses such a Deborah, but they are to be yoked to their husbands in submission (or if single to their Fathers in obediance), and the husband is to lead. And the command to keep silent in Church is not no speaking at all, but means speaking in the form of instructing, since Paul says they are to "subject themselves" to the instruction of their husbands (1 Corinthians 14:34). Whether we like it or not the Bible does say, "A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness" (1 Timothy 2:11). Though it may be hard to swallow it is a necessary crucifixion of the flesh and self that must be undergone for women, which men also must even more so submit themselves to Christ as their head since they will be held accountable for not only themselves but their entire household (a stricter judgement). This is in brief my present view of this issue.

God Bless,

~Josh
 
cybershark5886 said:
The question: was this a special agency distibuted to the Apostles for the founding of the Church?

Your thoughts?

Hey Cyber. Are you in the position that says that Apostles no longer exist . . . or?
 
Mutzrein said:
Hey Cyber. Are you in the position that says that Apostles no longer exist . . . or?

Yes, I do not believe the office has continued on today. I also see some special impartments (such as when they laid on their hands for the Spirit to come for the Samariatans - but not for the Gentiles - meaning it could be done that way but not necessary) that were connected to that office that are no longer given with authority. Now Pentecostalism does still believe in Spirit impartation by laying on of hands and many would travel all the way to Toronto just to get what was called "The Toronto Blessing", but it is based on incorrect theology to say it is only by hands laying that you can receive the fullness of the Holy Spirit.

Any way I was hoping very much not to overstep my bounds when talking about this for I would rather Christ be exalted than any man be elevated, and God be true but every man a liar. But I genuinely did have a curiosity, mainly based on the strong statement in Philemon 1:19, about whether the Apostles had an effect in some people's salvation, so much so as to be able to owe a debt to them as to a "father" who helped birth us. If this has been misinterpreted then I would gladly welcome Biblical correction that I may see a tried & approved teaching of the Word.

God Bless,

~Josh
 
One of these days, I'll probably start a thread on the issue of women as pastors and ministers. But, I don't want to derail this discussion, I only used the issue as an example of my own experience with Drew's topic.
 
handy said:
One of these days, I'll probably start a thread on the issue of women as pastors and ministers. But, I don't want to derail this discussion, I only used the issue as an example of my own experience with Drew's topic.

You can quote me and PM a response to me. We can talk there. I respect your opinions so I'd like to hear from you.

God Bless,

~Josh
 
Drew said,
Is there any way at all that I can interpret W so that it works with X, no matter how awkward and forced that interpretation is?

I think there is another way to say this. Maybe my way of saying what Drew said is not better, but it works for me.

No man approaches the text with a blank slate. We all approach the text with our traditions and previous assumptions about the text. Some people might call them presuppositions. The greatest danger of interpretation is that we will anochronisticly read our own traditions, presuppositions, or previous assumptions back into a text. This is why the best approach is to always be checking our tradition against scripture.

The unskilled interpreter of scripture is the man who says "I have no traditions."
 
mondar said:
No man approaches the text with a blank slate. We all approach the text with our traditions and previous assumptions about the text. Some people might call them presuppositions.

I disagree. I know of people that in an attempt to discern the full truth of Christianity, put aside almost every they knew and perceived concerning Christianity and started with a "blank slate". I myself was just such a person. It is a difficult thing to do, especially when you have to defend your actions to family and friends.

I do think other factors can stand in the way of discernment however.
 
A-Christian said:
mondar said:
No man approaches the text with a blank slate. We all approach the text with our traditions and previous assumptions about the text. Some people might call them presuppositions.

I disagree. I know of people that in an attempt to discern the full truth of Christianity, put aside almost every they knew and perceived concerning Christianity and started with a "blank slate". I myself was just such a person. It is a difficult thing to do, especially when you have to defend your actions to family and friends.

I do think other factors can stand in the way of discernment however.

Hi A-Christian,

Interesting to hear you started with a blank slate. I did likewise - putting aside everything and 'starting again' with a blank piece of paper. Grass roots!
 
stranger said:
Interesting to hear you started with a blank slate. I did likewise - putting aside everything and 'starting again' with a blank piece of paper. Grass roots!

Yup, grass roots, down and dirty. Turned my world upside down and I didn't like it, but dealt with it as honestly as I could. My journey has brought me peace.
 
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