Is Al Mohler Right?

[Hopeful 2]

Not at all. In post #6 I'm only addressing the context that Paul is talking about, which is corporate worship, and means that I'm saying that women shouldn't be pastors. I also said there is no double standard because universities, conventions, etc., are not corporate worship. You cannot take what Paul says specifically of corporate worship and generalize it to other contexts.

1 Tim 2:2..."But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."
Your context missed the bolded portion of 1 Tim 2:12.

 

[Who Me]

this is not correct, as there are many very able men who can do this job, and no doubt would if backed

Which proves my point. Those making the choice don't or won't see them.

 

[electedbyHim]

I was unaware of many things the author of the video has brought to light about Al and SBC.

Also did not know Rick Warren and Beth Moore were part of this. That in itself says multitudes.

My exposure to Mohler has always been the conferences he had with R.C. Sproul.

Thanks for the video.

 

[Free]

1 Tim 2:2..."But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."
Your context missed the bolded portion of 1 Tim 2:12.

No, that is the very verse I referred to. The context is much greater:

1Ti 1:3 As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine,
...
1Ti 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,
...
1Ti 2:8 I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling;
1Ti 2:9 likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire,
1Ti 2:10 but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works.
1Ti 2:11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.
1Ti 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
...
1Ti 3:1 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.
1Ti 3:2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
...
1Ti 3:8 Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain.
...
1Ti 3:14 I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these things to you so that,
1Ti 3:15 if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth.
...
1Ti 4:11 Command and teach these things.
1Ti 4:12 Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity.
1Ti 4:13 Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching. (ESV)

And all of chapter 5 is different instructions for different groups within the church. The whole context is about proper teaching, beliefs, and conduct in church, in that specific corporate gathering.

 

[Free]

In the Old Testament Deborah led the Israelites. If Ruth had not married Boaz there would be no David.
In the New Testament Paul also writes about another woman who invited him to her home so he could teach her whole family about Christ. There is also scripture that describes that the women who followed Christ helped and supported Him as He ministered to others.

Yes, there are examples of women who did work for Christ, but none that explicitly put women in the position of pastor or teacher where they would have spiritual authority over men.

Finally, Paul lived (as we also live) in a male-oriented society that discounted the gifts God gave to women for many different pursuits in this life (which would include leadership). I believe that is a serious error because we know that God loves ALL His children (male or female). And gifts us (male or female) with His Gifts (one of which would be the calling to lead).

If we truly say we believe in Christ then we understand that Christ helped male and female when they humbled themselves to ask Him for His Help and we also need to help (and lead) according to the examples He taught us to follow.

One thing many seem to miss is that Paul's argument in 1 Tim 2:11-12 is predicated on Creation and the Fall (vv. 13-14). That nullifies any argument to male-dominated culture. So, while male-oriented culture likely is a reason used by some to keep women from being pastors, in some places, for many others it's about simply sticking with what the Bible says. And, there is nothing I can see in the NT to indicate that women have been and are to be in positions of spiritual authority over men within the context of corporate worship. This doesn't mean that women can't lead in other contexts or that there is no other context in which they can use their God-given gifts:

Tit 2:3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good,
Tit 2:4 and so train the young women to love their husbands and children,
Tit 2:5 to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled. (ESV)

 

[Hopeful 2]

No, that is the very verse I referred to. The context is much greater:

1Ti 1:3 As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine,
...
1Ti 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,
...
1Ti 2:8 I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling;
1Ti 2:9 likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire,
1Ti 2:10 but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works.
1Ti 2:11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.
1Ti 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
...
1Ti 3:1 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.
1Ti 3:2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
...
1Ti 3:8 Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain.
...
1Ti 3:14 I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these things to you so that,
1Ti 3:15 if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth.
...
1Ti 4:11 Command and teach these things.
1Ti 4:12 Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity.
1Ti 4:13 Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching. (ESV)

And all of chapter 5 is different instructions for different groups within the church. The whole context is about proper teaching, beliefs, and conduct in church, in that specific corporate gathering.

That specific corporate gathering is not to allow women to have authority over men.
Neither are any other corporate church gatherings.

 

[Free]

That specific corporate gathering is not to allow women to have authority over men.
Neither are any other corporate church gatherings.

I have no idea what your point is.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I have no idea what your point is.

I guess, then, that I had no idea what your point was.
Bottom line...Women are not to have authority over men.

 

[Free]

I guess, then, that I had no idea what your point was.
Bottom line...Women are not to have authority over men.

That would seem to apply only within the gathering of a church for corporate worship. That is the context of Paul’s statement. We cannot take that specific context and generalize it to all contexts. That is my point.

 

[Hopeful 2]

That would seem to apply only within the gathering of a church for corporate worship. That is the context of Paul’s statement. We cannot take that specific context and generalize it to all contexts. That is my point.

OK, I have no problems with a woman boss on my job, or when one is directing traffic at an intersection.
Why do you use the word "corporate" ?

 

[Free]

OK, I have no problems with a woman boss on my job, or when one is directing traffic at an intersection.
Why do you use the word "corporate" ?

Because corporate worship is what we do on Sunday mornings, or other times. It differentiates that from other gatherings of the church, such as Sunday school.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Because corporate worship is what we do on Sunday mornings, or other times. It differentiates that from other gatherings of the church, such as Sunday school.

OK.
I don't think in business terms when I refer to my church.
Thanks...

 

[Hidden In Him]

Al Mohler is a well know solid Evangelical leader, whose teachings I have been listening to for many years. He is a very gifted man, and greatly used by the Lord for His Kingdom.

I have seen online today, that Mohler, who has spoken out against women as becoming "pastors", actually endorses a woman as becoming president of the Conservative Southern Baptist Convention. This seems to me to be double-standards, as it puts a woman in the position of leadership and authority, over many men.

I am interested to see what others have to say on this

https://eu.tennessean.com/story/new...try-pastors-meeting-indianapolis/73717451007/

I've read a number of good women authors, some of them scholarly, and writing is a form of teaching.

So my first question would be, are you saying Christian women shouldn't write? If the answer is only on certain occasions, then which ones? Should they be allowed to write on a scholarly level?

 

[SolaScriptura]

I've read a number of good women authors, some of them scholarly, and writing is a form of teaching.

So my first question would be, are you saying Christian women shouldn't write? If the answer is only on certain occasions, then which ones? Should they be allowed to write on a scholarly level?

The Bible is very clear that no woman can hold any place of authority that is over any man.

This would mean pastor, teacher, lecturer, etc where men are present.

Writing books or articles is up to the person, and likewise up to anyone who wants to read their writings

 

[Hidden In Him]

Writing books or articles is up to the person

Form of teaching. What's the difference between a woman teaching through published works and teaching in a formal setting?

 

[SolaScriptura]

Form of teaching. What's the difference between a woman teaching through published works and teaching in a formal setting?

1 Timothy 2:11-14
[11]Let a woman learn in silence with all submission.
[12]And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
[13]For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
[14]And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

What do you think this means

 

[Hidden In Him]

1 Timothy 2:11-14
[11]Let a woman learn in silence with all submission.
[12]And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
[13]For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
[14]And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

What do you think this means

It means a lot of things. I'm guessing you didn't like my question, so I suppose I should leave it alone. It's why I don't engage in a lot of debate. Few people know how to answer me.

Blessings in Christ,
- H

 

[SolaScriptura]

It means a lot of things. I'm guessing you didn't like my question, so I suppose I should leave it alone. It's why I don't engage in a lot of debate. Few people know how to answer me.

Blessings in Christ,
- H

I have answered you directly from the Bible. It does not mean a lot of things as you say. It is very clear to those who are interested in accepting what the Bible actually teaches rather than forcing our understanding on what God says

 

[Hidden In Him]

It does not mean a lot of things as you say.

It's 49 words. Some will say the passage is communicating only one thing, but I'd disagree with that. There is reference to an Old Testament account (two accounts actually), reference to two distinct Old Testament characters, reference to both teaching and authority, reference to women, reference to silence, and an inferred reference to what was going on in the churches at the time. This means the discussion would be nuanced at the very least.

The reason I was looking for a response is because you presented a position in the OP, and seeing as how you are educated, I wanted to see how well you could defend what you presented. I hadn't even gotten past the preliminary questions yet, you know? Should that not at least tell you that you may have a few weak spots if you can only quote 1 Timothy 2 to me? I'm familiar with the passage. How is it adding anything to the discussion to quote from it, especially when you are telling me the passage communicates only one thing, as if there is nothing left to discuss in the matter?

 

[Hidden In Him]

It's 49 words. Some will say the passage is communicating only one thing, but I'd disagree with that. There is reference to an Old Testament account (two accounts actually), reference to two distinct Old Testament characters, reference to both teaching and authority, reference to women, reference to silence, and an inferred reference to what was going on in the churches at the time.

The reason I was looking for a response is because you presented a position in the OP, and seeing as how you are educated, I wanted to see how well you could defend what you presented. I hadn't even gotten past the preliminary questions yet, you know? Should that not at least tell you that you may have a few weak spots if you can only quote 1 Timothy 2 to me? I'm familiar with the passage. How is it adding anything to the discussion to quote from it, especially when you are telling me the passage communicates only one thing, as if there is nothing left to discuss in the matter?

No matter. I need to let it go.

God bless,
- H