Is belief in Jesus's divinity necessary?

[kenan]

I'm having a hard time believing that Jesus is a man-god, it is mind boggling to me. I believe that he died for my sins and that he is my messiah, so is that "enough", to put it that way?

 

[handy]

No. For if we do not accept the divinity of Christ we are faced with an insoluable dilemma. We are to sacnrify Christ as Lord in our hearts(1 Peter 3:18). If Christ is Lord, but not God, then who is God to us then? Chopped liver? Christ Himself told us we cannot serve two masters. If we set up that Christ is just a man, not God, yet serve Him as Lord with no other master, we have effectively cast God out of the picture.

 

[Imagican]

handy,

While the Bible does say as you offered, it MUST be taken in context.

Let me explain:

You are in the Army. You have a Sgt, that is your DIRECT commander. But then HE has a Colonel that is HIS commander. Yet at ANY TIME the Colonel IS your commander as well. And even of HIGHER authority. Then there is the General................................ and ULTIMATELY The President...........

So, what you have offered is a LITERAL translation that does NOT necessarily pertain to the offeirng. The offering is concerning TRUTH verses LIES. God verses Satan.

What you have offered would contradict EVERYTHING offered pertaining to this subject. For a 'slave' HAS a 'master'. The Bible STATES that a slave is to WILLINGLY serve his earthly master. But that SAME slave is able to serve God as well. That, from your offering would MAKE two separate masters. But in reality, there is a vast difference between the Spiritual master; God, and the carnal masters that one may serve as well. But ONLY ONE is 'able to OWN' him who serves.

This in NO WAY offers that we CANNOT serve both Father AND Son. But what's MORE important than the 'serving of Christ' is the FOLLOWING of Christ. For a 'servant' follows ORDERS, yet to follow Christ is to follow an EXAMPLE. And that example is LOVE. Love that is OPENLY GIVEN for the simple sake of ITSELF.

The Jews tried to 'follow orders' to none effect. We have been given something MUCH DEEPER. Our spirits have been QUICKENED by The Spirit. NOW, for those that have had their hearts circumcised, The Spirit LIVES within us. ALLOWING us to UNDERSTAND and offer the LOVE of which we were 'created IN'. We 'serve God in Spirit' and this is done THROUGH Christ. For it is CHRIST that IS mediator between man and God. The ONLY way that we are ABLE to have communion WITH God is THROUGH the Blood of His Son.

Jesus was SENT, He did NOT simply COME. What He GAVE to us was GIVEN HIM by the Father. The Son IS heir to ALL that pertains to the Father. ESPECIALLY IF He BE; a 'good Son' and TRUE.

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

I'm having a hard time believing that Jesus is a man-god, it is mind boggling to me. I believe that he died for my sins and that he is my messiah, so is that "enough", to put it that way?

The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is God (cf. John 8:58, 10:38, 14:10; Col. 2:9). And yes, Jesus DID say he was God. In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am"â€â€invoking and applying to himself the personal name of Godâ€â€"I Am" (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59). In John 5:18 we are told that Jesus’ opponents sought to kill him because he "called God his Father, making himself equal with God."

In John 20:28, Thomas falls at Jesus’ feet, exclaiming, "My Lord and my God!" (Greek: Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mouâ€â€literally, "The Lord of me and the God of me!")

Philippians 2:6 says that Jesus "who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped" (New International Version). So Jesus chose to be born in humble, human form though he could have simply remained in equal glory with the Father for he was "in very nature God."

Also significant are passages that apply the title "the First and the Last" to Jesus (Rev. 1:17). This is one of the Old Testament titles of Yahweh: "Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’" (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12).

This title is directly applied to Jesus three times in the book of Revelation: "When I saw him [Christ], I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the First and the Last’" (Rev. 1:17). "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life’" (Rev. 2:8). "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 22:12–13).

This last quote is especially significant since it applies to Jesus the parallel title "the Alpha and the Omega," which Revelation earlier applied to the Lord God: "‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty" (Rev. 1:8).

But did the early Christians believe this? YES! Here are some quotes:

Ignatius of Antioch: "Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

Aristides: "[Christians] are they who, above every people of the earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the Creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit" (Apology 16 [A.D. 140]).

Clement of Alexandria: "The Word, then, the Christ, is the cause both of our ancient beginningâ€â€for he was in Godâ€â€and of our well-being. And now this same Word has appeared as man. He alone is both God and man, and the source of all our good things" (Exhortation to the Greeks 1:7:1 [A.D. 190]).

 

[handy]

MEC, I stand by my post. As CC points out, there is more than ample Biblical proof that Jesus was indeed God, and only if Jesus were God is He a Master worthy of following. If Jesus was not God, and yet accpeted worship (John 9:35-38; 20:28-29), then, as a man, he would not only be unworthy to be called master, he would be a sinner as well, for no mere man should ever accept worship or the title of "My God".

As C.S. Lewis pointed out in Mere Christianity, if Jesus was not God, then he was either a liar or a lunatic, neither of which makes him a worthy master. And, it's more than clear that Jesus of Nazareth wasn't a lunatic. So, our only choices are that He either lied or is indeed God. Only if He was God (and He is) does it make sense to worship Him and serve Him as Master. If He is One with the Father and the Spirit, then there is no problem in serving two masters. If He is not, then we do have a problem, because if Jesus is not One with the Father, making the claims that He did, He then must be a liar, and one cannot serve liars and God.

 

[Orion]

Can someone post scripture where Jesus himself was specifically saying that he is God, . . . the same God that the Hebrews have always worshipped?

I know there is the "I and the Father are one", but I take that "one" the same as "the husband and wife shall become one..."

One in focus and purpose. I can agree that Jesus is a member of the "Godhead", thus divine.

In case you are curious, . . . I have no problem with not being "monotheistic", in that I have no problem having seperate beings in that "Godhead" when it seems moreso in scripture that they ARE separate. . . . . . though "one in their purpose".

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Can someone post scripture where Jesus himself was specifically saying that he is God, . . . the same God that the Hebrews have always worshipped?

Jesus said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am"â€â€invoking and applying to himself the personal name of Godâ€â€"I Am" (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59).

 

[Orion]

But then he says, "I must be about my FATHER'S business.". . . .which is a stark indication that he isn't speaking of himself, but of someone else. And we know that fathers have authority over their children, . . . or are supposed to.

 

[handy]

Orion, you asked if there was specific scripture in which Jesus specifically said that He was the God that the Jews worshipped.

Don't be so quick to blow over John 8:58 that CC shared. Jesus was not referring to God and Him in a 'husband/wife" kind of way. He didn't say, the Father and I are One here (though He used that verbage elsewhere). He specifically said, "Before Abraham was born, I AM."

Shocked the Jews so much they tried to stone Him to death on the spot, but it wasn't His time.

Anyone trying to deny that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament, cannot, they simply cannot get around that declaration. This is why so many modern 'scholars' dismiss John's Gospel as being anything, anything else at all, except an eye-wittnessed testimony of Jesus.

 

[Orion]

I understand the verse, but it brings about confusion when Jesus also states, "I must be about my father's business". :-

 

[Catholic Crusader]

But then he says, "I must be about my FATHER'S business.". . . ..

...which is why you cannot seperate the doctrine of the Trinity from the doctrine of Christ's divinity. They go hand in hand. God is ONE: One being, three persons. (*A human is one being and one person: A cat or dog is one being and NO persons: God is one being and THREE persons.) We can not FULLY understand the Trinity, but the scripures are pretty plain that God IS Trinity:

Jesus tells his apostles to baptize "in the name [notice, singular, not plural] of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 28:19). This is a proof-text: three distinct Persons united in the one divine name. In 2 Corinthians 13:14, Paul writes, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." We see this same unity of divine Persons in 1 Corinthians 12:4–11, Ephesians 4:4–6, and 1 Peter 1:2–3.

The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is God (cf. John 8:58, 10:38, 14:10; Col. 2:9). It also clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit is God (cf. Acts 5:3–4, 28:25–28; 1 Cor. 2:10–13). Everyone agrees the Father is God. Yet there is only one God (Mark 12:29, 1 Cor. 8:4–6, Jas. 2:19). How can we hold all four truths except to say all three are One God?

 

[Rick W]

Jesus is the Word of God. What God intends, His purpose, is conveyed by His Word, Jesus Christ. What God intents is God. His intent cannot be separated from who the purpose comes from. What I purpose to do is me.
God's Word became flesh. God's Word can only do that which God wills. What I intend cannot do anything else, for my word, my purpose/intent, is me.
Of course Jesus can do nothing else but "must be about my father's business". Christ is God's Word incarnate.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

And God said...
And God said...
And God said...
And God said...

His desire was the power of creation. It was His will that these things exist. It was His intent, His purpose. Through His Word all things were created. And that Word became flesh.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Jesus is the Word of God. What God intends, His purpose, is conveyed by His Word, Jesus Christ. What God intents is God. His intent cannot be separated from who the purpose comes from. What I purpose to do is me.....

Very Aquinas-ish

 

[Orion]

I'm afraid that the Trinity is not something that I can understand. . . . . so it is hard for me to accept what is so foreign in concept. And even though "the trinity" isn't verbalized in the bible, it is a doctrine of the church that I just can't agree with. The verses given are just so vague.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

I'm afraid that the Trinity is not something that I can understand. . . . . so it is hard for me to accept what is so foreign in concept. And even though "the trinity" isn't verbalized in the bible, it is a doctrine of the church that I just can't agree with. The verses given are just so vague.

Well, you cannot have two Gods. So if you reject the Trinity, I don't see how you will come to grips with Christ's divinity.

 

[handy]

The Trinity is all over the Bible. The church simply gave the truth a name for easier reference.

When Jesus said, "I AM", He wasn't referring to the Father or to the Spirit, He was referring to Himself. Therefore, Jesus is God.

When Jesus says, "Father,....that they may know Thee, the only true God..." (John 17:1-3) He is referring to the Father, not to Himself, yet He clearly states that the Father is God.

When Jesus said, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; but you shall recive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you shall be My witnesses..." (Acts 1:7-8) He refers to both the Father and the Spirit, separate of each other, and of Himself.

So, Jesus clearly states that the Father, the Son and the Spirit are not all Him, yet they all are God.

I cannot understand why so many try to deny the divinity of Jesus. Frankly, if one were to contain themselves to just the words of Christ alone, it would be easier, (though not effective) to deny the divinity of the Spirit rather than Christ. But, just a simple perusal of the rest of the Scriptures would put to rest any notion that the Holy Spirit is not the Divine Spirit of God. Also, a simple perusal of the Scriptures show that God is ONE. Therefore, we have but ONE God who is three persons, Father, Son and Spirit.

However, these posts would be even longer if we were to write One God who is three persons, Father, Son and Spirit, all the time, so the church has defined this very Biblical truth as "Trinity".

 

[Catholic Crusader]

...The church simply gave the truth a name for easier reference.....

...would you mind repeating that in the "Purgatory" thread? hehehehe :D

 

[mutzrein]

No. For if we do not accept the divinity of Christ we are faced with an insoluable dilemma. We are to sacnrify Christ as Lord in our hearts(1 Peter 3:18). If Christ is Lord, but not God, then who is God to us then? Chopped liver? Christ Himself told us we cannot serve two masters. If we set up that Christ is just a man, not God, yet serve Him as Lord with no other master, we have effectively cast God out of the picture.

Why? I accept the divinity of Christ but I don't accept that he IS God (which is deity). Christ is not chopped liver. Christ is not just a man. He is the spotless lamb of God who has all the attributes of perfection attributed to his Father. It is His Father who is God and Christ is the son to whom God has given all power and authority. As scripture tells us, God put everything under Christ's feet - everything that is, except God.

 

[handy]

Jesus said Himself, "Before Abramham, I AM." This cannot be discounted and it means nothing else but that it was Jesus who spoke to Moses. The Jews knew this. This is why they tried to stone Him.

 

[mutzrein]

Jesus said Himself, "Before Abramham, I AM." This cannot be discounted and it means nothing else but that it was Jesus who spoke to Moses. The Jews knew this. This is why they tried to stone Him.

You are absolutely right. It cannot be discounted. Jesus himself told the Jews he was the SON of God, and that is the reason they wanted to stone him. Jesus IS the Word of God. And he has been from the beginning. He was WITH God in the beginning and through Him all things have been created. Being the 'WORD' of God, he can rightly say, 'Before Abraham was I am'.

Now explain to me why scripture tells us that God has put all things under Christ EXCEPT God himself.