Is death an illusion?

[Kaileymarie]

Well, if you want a pragmatic explanation regarding the flesh body, when one is translated to a glorified body the old flesh body dies doing it. A little Sci-Fi sounding like the person vaporizes and is instantly raised to that form. They never "sleep" in the sense that you have a body there to embalm. Also, they are transferred from one conscious state to another without a gap of time being unconscious (sleep). This is why the dead in Christ rise first. I guess you can say they already completed that step (death).

Ooooohh!!!!!!!

 

[farouk]

<dir>Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

When does everlasting life begin?
</dir>

By faith, now.

 

[Mitspa]

I thank you so much for your response Brother.

So let me understand this, you believe that those of us who have accepted Christ that our 'spirit' died (mans spirit, I would think right?) and that now Gods Spirit resides in us? It makes sense, I can see that.

Now please forgive me for thinking out loud, but I am trying to understand this better, so here is what I understand so far:

According to what you said, man is body, soul and spirit, right?

OK, ... so God made the body of dust, so we have this physical body, got it.

Then He breathed into man, and man became a living soul, that makes sense too, so now as you said we are body and soul

Then you say that our soul is our mind, ... that too makes perfect sense, now we are body with a soul/mind as an individual from God, in God yet with a freedom of will.
So is the 'breath of life' that God breathed into us the 'power' (like electricity is to a computer) that drives us, that keeps us going?
Is this why it is written that when we die, our 'spirit' goes back to God from whence it was taken? Now if I understand you right, that too would make perfect sense.

Now here is my next question; if when we become 'born again', our human spirit dies and we become a New Creature that will never die (I understand that our body will eventually die, it is dust of course) ... is that 'New Creature' our mind? Is this why we are to be born in the 'newness of mind' and keep it alive by studying the Word of God?

I could never quite put all this together, but now this makes sense. Reality is really in our 'mind' then, it is here that we create, decide and make choices, the body (the physical body) is the illusion, and as you said; 'death is the illusion'.

Oh... but here is what troubles me, I understand that by 'putting sin out of our mind, we put to death the carnal mind', and that by this we are born again, ... right? Then why does this supposedly 'dead' mind of mine keep coming back to life, it keeps popping up every day!! Hunting me, wanting to LIVE again?

HOW... again, how can I be 'born again' if this 'old man', ... this sinful mind and supposedly dead mind of mine keeps popping up over and over again in me? Wouldn't this mean that it's still alive and not dead? How can something dead continue to be such a burden and DANGER to me?

Thanks again... I wait for your response.

Odon

Wow Oden, your pretty sharp! I know you was speaking to Ilove but if you will allow me to I will take up a point where you ended yours. The just SHALL LIVE by faith. The word " reckon" becomes very important in the law of life? For as we walk in the Spirit of Life it will form a New nature in the soul. The "divine nature" All by faith! The soul (mind, emotins etc..) will be changed if we do not lose heart in the promises of God.

We "reckon" these promises are ours, For by these great and precious promises we become partakers of the divine nature.

So the truth of the Cross and our own flesh being jugded with Christ becomes the most important truth of our life?

For it is written He became sin for us. Sin in the flesh has been judged in His Body. There is therefore now no charge of sin against us for the flesh we all have. We have "reckoned" ourselves dead with Him and to that sin. So as we walk in the truth the Spirit will begin to overcome by Grace the sin within our flesh. For it is written Sin will not have dominon over you because you are not under law but under grace. Grace is The Spirit that gives us victory, even when we fall short? For in our failures we seek more grace! For His strength is made perfect in our weakness.

I hope I have not given you too much? but maybe enough to help?

Blessings upon the humble at heart! Mitspa

 

[from dust to life]

Wow Oden, your pretty sharp! I know you was speaking to Ilove but if you will allow me to I will take up a point where you ended yours. The just SHALL LIVE by faith. The word " reckon" becomes very important in the law of life? For as we walk in the Spirit of Life it will form a New nature in the soul. The "divine nature" All by faith! The soul (mind, emotins etc..) will be changed if we do not lose heart in the promises of God.

We "reckon" these promises are ours, For by these great and precious promises we become partakers of the divine nature.

Thank you so much Mitspa, and may the Lord bless you.

So I guess the trick is not to loose heart, or not to loose faith, right? But what if I start to loose faith? I understand that it is all on Christ, and as you said, He took it all to the cross, ... great, it is all wonderful until I loose faith, you know what I mean? It is all Christ, ... I understand, but if I loose faith, it is all me and I'm doomed again.

So the truth of the Cross and our own flesh being jugded with Christ becomes the most important truth of our life?

For it is written He became sin for us. Sin in the flesh has been judged in His Body. There is therefore now no charge of sin against us for the flesh we all have. We have "reckoned" ourselves dead with Him and to that sin. So as we walk in the truth the Spirit will begin to overcome by Grace the sin within our flesh. For it is written Sin will not have dominon over you because you are not under law but under grace. Grace is The Spirit that gives us victory, even when we fall short? For in our failures we seek more grace! For His strength is made perfect in our weakness.

See, ... but that is just it, I don't feel that I'm dead with Him. Every time I fall short I see sin alive in me. How can I be at one time alive in Christ and the next, .. alive to sin?

Remember how it says; 'he that is in the Lord cannot sin' (or close to that, I'm paraphrasing here) ... but I do sin and fall short. So how does this work?

OK, ... so just as Moses lifted up that bronze serpent and everyone that looked upon that bronze medallion when they were bit were saved, we too must look upon Christ, so when we are bit by sin (fall short) we too can be saved, ... am I correct?

But here is the thing, ... I know many people who go to church (my old church) and have been going to church regularly for many decades, they go and have singings between the week, they gather for any and all occasions and seem to be so holy, and show so much love in church for each other, yet I KNOW, and again I say, I know the wicked life they live outside the church. They profess Christ, they know the Scriptures and quote it far better than me, yet I know they are living in sin. They cheat and lie in business, on taxes, are greedy, some are drunkards, but when they show up in church, ... man they are the most loving church I have ever seen.

They confess that they are saved, ... would Jesus blood keep washing them as long as they 'look upon Christ' and be able to keep claiming that their sins are 'that which is common to men'?

If so, then where does 1st and 2nd Corinthians come in?
Why would another person address a sin issue if they pray to God every night to forgive their sins? Isn't that what I do? Just because I don't sin as much, or the level of sin they allow themselves, why should another brother confront them, and if they don't listen bring two or three witnesses against them, and if that doesn't work, bring the issue before the church to the point of excommunicate them and treat them as unbelievers?

I hope I have not given you too much? but maybe enough to help?

Blessings upon the humble at heart! Mitspa

Thank you so much, it's something that I just can't nail down, is once saved always saved? You know what I mean?

In Christ,
Odon

 

[Mitspa]

Thank you so much Mitspa, and may the Lord bless you.

So I guess the trick is not to loose heart, or not to loose faith, right? But what if I start to loose faith? I understand that it is all on Christ, and as you said, He took it all to the cross, ... great, it is all wonderful until I loose faith, you know what I mean? It is all Christ, ... I understand, but if I loose faith, it is all me and I'm doomed again.



See, ... but that is just it, I don't feel that I'm dead with Him. Every time I fall short I see sin alive in me. How can I be at one time alive in Christ and the next, .. alive to sin?

Remember how it says; 'he that is in the Lord cannot sin' (or close to that, I'm paraphrasing here) ... but I do sin and fall short. So how does this work?

OK, ... so just as Moses lifted up that bronze serpent and everyone that looked upon that bronze medallion when they were bit were saved, we too must look upon Christ, so when we are bit by sin (fall short) we too can be saved, ... am I correct?

But here is the thing, ... I know many people who go to church (my old church) and have been going to church regularly for many decades, they go and have singings between the week, they gather for any and all occasions and seem to be so holy, and show so much love in church for each other, yet I KNOW, and again I say, I know the wicked life they live outside the church. They profess Christ, they know the Scriptures and quote it far better than me, yet I know they are living in sin. They cheat and lie in business, on taxes, are greedy, some are drunkards, but when they show up in church, ... man they are the most loving church I have ever seen.

They confess that they are saved, ... would Jesus blood keep washing them as long as they 'look upon Christ' and be able to keep claiming that their sins are 'that which is common to men'?

If so, then where does 1st and 2nd Corinthians come in?
Why would another person address a sin issue if they pray to God every night to forgive their sins? Isn't that what I do? Just because I don't sin as much, or the level of sin they allow themselves, why should another brother confront them, and if they don't listen bring two or three witnesses against them, and if that doesn't work, bring the issue before the church to the point of excommunicate them and treat them as unbelievers?



Thank you so much, it's something that I just can't nail down, is once saved always saved? You know what I mean?

In Christ,
Odon

I want to adress the scripture you used from 1 John? For in Him we have no and we cannot sin?

First one should see that John is speaking to three groups of Christians in spiritual growth. Children, young men and Fathers.
1 Jn 1:9-10 Says we all have sin? He is saying the same thing Paul said? We ALL HAVE a sinful flesh. Then He goes on and makes the same point Paul makes again? 1 John 3:4-9 That sin is lawlessness! Paul told us that we have been delivered from the law and cannot be judged as sinners by the law. We are righteous by faith in Christ. How can any charge of sin be made against us? for if We are Christ to charge us with sin is to charge Christ with sin. So John reaffirms our justified condition in Christ! In Him we have no sin, and cannot sin!

So it is a lesson that is grown into by faith! A "young man" has learned this truth and lives in this truth. Thus it is written that the "young man has overcome the wicked one. satan "the ACCUSER!

a child is one who still needs that great promise? 1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sin HE IS FAITHFUL AND JUST TO FORGIVE AND CLEANSE.

now this is FOR OUR OWN CONSCIENCE! it does not change the truth that we will grow into as young men, but it helps us get to where God would help us be!

 

[Mitspa]

Also brother, on some of the other issues you brought up about the church you attend. I cant really say why they act as they do? But when one is half way justified by works of law and half way justified by faith. They can only be hypocrites, it not even something they can control! It is not in man to do good by his own strength! When he attempts to keep the law by his flesh? we see what happens in Rom 7. The law they want to keep actally produces sinful desires in their flesh.. For it is written the strength of sin is the law. No one must turn COMPLETELY TO THE GRACE OF GOD. for sin will not have dominion over you because you are not under law but under grace.

Paul makes this point very clear, yet very few heed what he says. They mix law and grace and this produces hypocricy.l

 

[Free]

totopic

 

[from dust to life]

I want to adress the scripture you used from 1 John? For in Him we have no and we cannot sin?

First one should see that John is speaking to three groups of Christians in spiritual growth. Children, young men and Fathers.
1 Jn 1:9-10 Says we all have sin? He is saying the same thing Paul said? We ALL HAVE a sinful flesh. Then He goes on and makes the same point Paul makes again? 1 John 3:4-9 That sin is lawlessness! Paul told us that we have been delivered from the law and cannot be judged as sinners by the law. We are righteous by faith in Christ. How can any charge of sin be made against us? for if We are Christ to charge us with sin is to charge Christ with sin. So John reaffirms our justified condition in Christ! In Him we have no sin, and cannot sin!

So it is a lesson that is grown into by faith! A "young man" has learned this truth and lives in this truth. Thus it is written that the "young man has overcome the wicked one. satan "the ACCUSER!

a child is one who still needs that great promise? 1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sin HE IS FAITHFUL AND JUST TO FORGIVE AND CLEANSE.

now this is FOR OUR OWN CONSCIENCE! it does not change the truth that we will grow into as young men, but it helps us get to where God would help us be!

Again I thank you brother, ... and Free is correct, we have deviated from the topic. Sorry, my fault.

I am beginning to 'see' how this works dear brother, ... would you mind starting an OP (original post) on this subject and let me know when you do?

So where do we stand on the OP on 'Is Death an illusion'?

I understand it that death is real, Jesus would not have died if it wasn't, right?
But Jesus put an end to death for those of us who accept Christ, but hell (the second death) will be renewed, and will last forever as a place without the love of God, where darkness, pain and suffering rules the tormented souls forever and ever.

So IMHO 'death' is NOT an illusion, for it is appointed for all men to die, ... once.

In Jesus name

Odon

 

[Mitspa]

Again I thank you brother, ... and Free is correct, we have deviated from the topic. Sorry, my fault.

I am beginning to 'see' how this works dear brother, ... would you mind starting an OP (original post) on this subject and let me know when you do?

So where do we stand on the OP on 'Is Death an illusion'?

I understand it that death is real, Jesus would not have died if it wasn't, right?
But Jesus put an end to death for those of us who accept Christ, but hell (the second death) will be renewed, and will last forever as a place without the love of God, where darkness, pain and suffering rules the tormented souls forever and ever.

So IMHO 'death' is NOT an illusion, for it is appointed for all men to die, ... once.

In Jesus name

Odon

I think the purpose and point of the thread is to make the point that death for the believer is not what it is to those who are not in the Life of Christ. We live in Christ and should be living by the power of His life? The law of the Spirit of life in Christ. For us to lose this body of sin, is not a matter of "death" but should be seen as the taking away of a veil that in many ways hinder what true life is. We should already see that the death perscribed to all men, has been fulfilled for us in the body of Christ. In the mind of God, we are in fact already dead with Christ. We are alive with Him also! When one really understands these things, we start to see that "life and life in abundance" are ours in the Fathers mind. This relates to Johns epistles? we may ask for life for others and the Father will grant that also. I pray often for the very sick, sometimes I do not know how to pray for them but to ask that the Father give them "life". I have seen that life bring a young man up out of a death bed, after the doctors had signed the papers that said nothing could be done but to watch him die. So i do not understand it all but I know "life" that comes from God, is above the natural law of sin and death. Also one can see that in the New Testament, when a believer passes from this world, it is not called death, but "sleep".
I know this for sure? That we should see ourself as having died with Christ, and alive with Christ! This is called faith and God will honor and reward this faith. We should be living a life that honors His life for He was raised for our justification. We are justified to live, because He lives. Now I know many struggle with this and that? Sins and such, but Your Redeemer is alive! If you remember that you will overcome all temptation. -Mitspa

 

[from dust to life]

I think the purpose and point of the thread is to make the point that death for the believer is not what it is to those who are not in the Life of Christ. We live in Christ and should be living by the power of His life? The law of the Spirit of life in Christ. For us to lose this body of sin, is not a matter of "death" but should be seen as the taking away of a veil that in many ways hinder what true life is. We should already see that the death perscribed to all men, has been fulfilled for us in the body of Christ. In the mind of God, we are in fact already dead with Christ. We are alive with Him also! When one really understands these things, we start to see that "life and life in abundance" are ours in the Fathers mind. This relates to Johns epistles? we may ask for life for others and the Father will grant that also. I pray often for the very sick, sometimes I do not know how to pray for them but to ask that the Father give them "life". I have seen that life bring a young man up out of a death bed, after the doctors had signed the papers that said nothing could be done but to watch him die. So i do not understand it all but I know "life" that comes from God, is above the natural law of sin and death. Also one can see that in the New Testament, when a believer passes from this world, it is not called death, but "sleep".
I know this for sure? That we should see ourself as having died with Christ, and alive with Christ! This is called faith and God will honor and reward this faith. We should be living a life that honors His life for He was raised for our justification. We are justified to live, because He lives. Now I know many struggle with this and that? Sins and such, but Your Redeemer is alive! If you remember that you will overcome all temptation. -Mitspa

Yes you are so right. Death IS an illusion for those who are alive in Christ, but is real for those who reject Him, right?

Also just as you said; we (believers) are alive in 'Gods mind', and for that to change, one must change Gods mind, ... and who could do that? Well we the created have done that many times. One was before the flood of Noah, God said; "I am sorry I created man"

So what would you say the answer to the OP; 'Is Death an Illusion' would be?

Wouldn't the answer be two fold? One for the Believer and the other for those who deny the Lord?

If we look deeper even as believers, what would the answer be even if the question was; "Is this Universe and everything in this physical creation an Illusion?" since God can make this universe pass away as a mist, never to be seen again?

So everything is an illusion, only God is real.

Just as we can draw a plan and have the ability to erase it, change it, or discard it completely, God can do it with anything He has created, ... right? When God creates the elements and the atoms and makes a rock out of it, no one can make it go away, it is real and will stand as long as God wants it to. But like you said, we can pray for the sick and if it's Gods will, they can get well as if they never been sick at all. The reality is that we cannot walk on water, yet Christ walked on water.

Over all I believe that death exists just as 'nothing' exists, and if God defined it, it is real.

Odon

 

[Mitspa]

Yes you are so right. Death IS an illusion for those who are alive in Christ, but is real for those who reject Him, right?

Also just as you said; we (believers) are alive in 'Gods mind', and for that to change, one must change Gods mind, ... and who could do that? Well we the created have done that many times. One was before the flood of Noah, God said; "I am sorry I created man"

So what would you say the answer to the OP; 'Is Death an Illusion' would be?

Wouldn't the answer be two fold? One for the Believer and the other for those who deny the Lord?

If we look deeper even as believers, what would the answer be even if the question was; "Is this Universe and everything in this physical creation an Illusion?" since God can make this universe pass away as a mist, never to be seen again?

So everything is an illusion, only God is real.

Just as we can draw a plan and have the ability to erase it, change it, or discard it completely, God can do it with anything He has created, ... right? When God creates the elements and the atoms and makes a rock out of it, no one can make it go away, it is real and will stand as long as God wants it to. But like you said, we can pray for the sick and if it's Gods will, they can get well as if they never been sick at all. The reality is that we cannot walk on water, yet Christ walked on water.

Over all I believe that death exists just as 'nothing' exists, and if God defined it, it is real.

Odon

Very good points Oden! I agree with all you stated.
I must also say that you must have a very good heart to be able to see the deeper truths. For it is by the eyes of the heart that one sees the truths of God.
Religion is about head knowledge and things that religion can see and touch with their natural senses.
Faith looks by the heart at the unseen things. it calleth those things that be not as though they were. Grow in grace and knowledge of Christ.

 

[farouk]

I would not use the word 'illusion', But for the believer, death need have no sense of dread: Paul says it is a case of 'absent from the body, present with the Lord' (2 Corinthians 5.8).

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

I understand what the OP is trying to say, and from the standpoint of the believer, you could say physical death is an illusion. More accurately, I think, is to state that from the standpoint of the Christian who finds him/herself "home" in heaven, this life will be what appears to have been an illusion. The reality of eternity with the Lord will be so awesome, so fulfilling, so life-giving as to make this life in the temporal world seem illusory, dreamlike -- maybe even nightmarish -- by comparison.