Is eternal life a reward?

[Catholic Crusader]

Catholic Crusader,
Can you provide support for:
1) That the 'spirit' of both the wicked and righteous go to hell and heaven at death
2) That the 'spirit' is the 'soul' (is it the soul or spirit that goes to heaven or hell? It can't be both)
I'll await your answer with scripture.

First let me deal with the question of "spirit" and "soul". Please indulge me: I know you probably don't want to read the Catechism, but trust me, it explains it much better than I can (pay extra attention to 367):

II. "BODY AND SOUL BUT TRULY ONE"

362 The human person, created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. The biblical account expresses this reality in symbolic language when it affirms that "then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."229 Man, whole and entire, is therefore willed by God.

363 In Sacred Scripture the term "soul" often refers to human life or the entire human person.230 But "soul" also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him,231 that by which he is most especially in God's image: "soul" signifies the spiritual principle in man.

364 The human body shares in the dignity of "the image of God": it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul, and it is the whole human person that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit:232

Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through him they are thus brought to their highest perfection and can raise their voice in praise freely given to the Creator. For this reason man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and to hold it in honor since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day. 233

365 The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the "form" of the body:234 i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.

366 The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not "produced" by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.235

367 Sometimes the soul is distinguished from the spirit: St. Paul for instance prays that God may sanctify his people "wholly", with "spirit and soul and body" kept sound and blameless at the Lord's coming.236 The Church teaches that this distinction does not introduce a duality into the soul.237 "Spirit" signifies that from creation man is ordered to a supernatural end and that his soul can gratuitously be raised beyond all it deserves to communion with God.238

368 The spiritual tradition of the Church also emphasizes the heart, in the biblical sense of the depths of one's being, where the person decides for or against God.239


229 Gen 2:7.
230 Cf. Mt 16:25-26; Jn 15:13; Acts 2:41.
231 Cf. Mt 10:28; 26:38; Jn 12:27; 2 Macc 6 30.
232 Cf. I Cor 6:19-20; 15:44-45.
233 GS 14 # 1; cf. Dan 3:57-80.
234 Cf. Council of Vienne (1312): DS 902.
235 Cf. Pius XII, Humani generis: DS 3896; Paul VI, CPC # 8; Lateran Council V (1513): DS 1440.
236 1 Th 5:23.
237 Cf. Council of Constantinople IV (870): DS 657.
238 Cf. Vatican Council I, Dei Filius: DS 3005; GS 22 # 5; Humani generis: DS 3891.
239 Cf. Jer 31:33; Dt 6:5; 29:3; Is 29:13; Ezek 36:26; Mt 6:21; Lk 8:15; Rom 5:5.

 

[CP_Mike]

Catholic Crusader,
Can you provide support for:
1) That the 'spirit' of both the wicked and righteous go to hell and heaven at death
2) That the 'spirit' is the 'soul' (is it the soul or spirit that goes to heaven or hell? It can't be both)
I'll await your answer with scripture.

First let me deal with the question of "spirit" and "soul". Please indulge me: I know you probably don't want to read the Catechism, but trust me, it explains it much better than I can:

II. "BODY AND SOUL BUT TRULY ONE"

362 The human person, created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. The biblical account expresses this reality in symbolic language when it affirms that "then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."229 Man, whole and entire, is therefore willed by God.

363 In Sacred Scripture the term "soul" often refers to human life or the entire human person.230 But "soul" also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him,231 that by which he is most especially in God's image: "soul" signifies the spiritual principle in man.

364 The human body shares in the dignity of "the image of God": it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul, and it is the whole human person that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit:232


Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through him they are thus brought to their highest perfection and can raise their voice in praise freely given to the Creator. For this reason man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and to hold it in honor since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day. 233
365 The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the "form" of the body:234 i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.

366 The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not "produced" by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.235

367 Sometimes the soul is distinguished from the spirit: St. Paul for instance prays that God may sanctify his people "wholly", with "spirit and soul and body" kept sound and blameless at the Lord's coming.236 The Church teaches that this distinction does not introduce a duality into the soul.237 "Spirit" signifies that from creation man is ordered to a supernatural end and that his soul can gratuitously be raised beyond all it deserves to communion with God.238

368 The spiritual tradition of the Church also emphasizes the heart, in the biblical sense of the depths of one's being, where the person decides for or against God.239


229 Gen 2:7.
230 Cf. Mt 16:25-26; Jn 15:13; Acts 2:41.
231 Cf. Mt 10:28; 26:38; Jn 12:27; 2 Macc 6 30.
232 Cf. I Cor 6:19-20; 15:44-45.
233 GS 14 # 1; cf. Dan 3:57-80.
234 Cf. Council of Vienne (1312): DS 902.
235 Cf. Pius XII, Humani generis: DS 3896; Paul VI, CPC # 8; Lateran Council V (1513): DS 1440.
236 1 Th 5:23.
237 Cf. Council of Constantinople IV (870): DS 657.
238 Cf. Vatican Council I, Dei Filius: DS 3005; GS 22 # 5; Humani generis: DS 3891.
239 Cf. Jer 31:33; Dt 6:5; 29:3; Is 29:13; Ezek 36:26; Mt 6:21; Lk 8:15; Rom 5:5.

Hi CC,
It seems to me that the definition of 'soul' you are using is not necessarily the view as meant by the Hebrew writers.

Nowhere in the bible does 'eternal' or 'immortal' are used alongside the Hebrew word 'Nephesh' or the NT Greek 'phyche'. The bible does not support the view that the soul is immortal. The very definition of soul you are quoting does not mean the same thing as the bible means

Lets look at the scriptures.

Gen 2:7 and man became a living soul (nephesh). Here the whole man is a 'soul' . Nephesh was used to describe the whole person here, not a part.

Lev 17:11, DT 12:23 Here is states that the 'nephesh' is in the blood and here is is often translated as 'life' quite correctly.

Numbers 23:10, Let my soul die the death of the righteous
Judges 16:30 Let my soul die with the philistines..

Ezekiel 18:4 The soul that sins will die...

Whta the Hebrews believed was that when thedie, they were no longer 'Nephesh', they became 'Rephaim' in Sheol; awaiting resurrection. 'Spirit' in the bible has a different root word meaing, but that always returns to God. It really does not mean that is the person returning to God, its simply the infusion of divine breath as rendered in Gen 2:7 and Ecclesiated 12:7 going back to God.

I would be happy to debate with you and others the true meaning of 'soul/ and spirit.

Here is a really good link that examines the word 'Nephesh' in the OT and NT

http://www.drhoff.com/Writings/writings.htm

 

[Catholic Crusader]

... It seems to me that the definition of 'soul' you are using is not necessarily the view as meant by the Hebrew writers....

Well, as for the "soul", the Latin word for soul is "anima", where we get the word "animation". Why? Because it is the "animating" force of the body. EVERY living thing therefore has a "soul": Trees, birds, aomebas.. ...whatever. But in MAN, the soul is a "spiritual" soul - there is no dualism between the two. (Thomas Aquinas often differentiated between he "sensitive" souls of animals and the "rational" soul of man.)

I assume you believe in the Trinity, yet the Hebrew writers when referring to God did not have a good grasp on that either. We understand Gods word more as time goes by.

 

[mutzrein]

[quote="CP_Mike":46c2e]... It seems to me that the definition of 'soul' you are using is not necessarily the view as meant by the Hebrew writers....

Well, as for the "soul", the Latin word for soul is "anima", where we get the word "animation". Why? Because it is the "animating" force of the body. EVERY living thing therefore has a "soul": Trees, birds, aomebas.. ...whatever. But in MAN, the soul is a "spiritual" soul - there is no dualism between the two. (Thomas Aquinas often differentiated between he "sensitive" souls of animals and the "rational" soul of man.)

I assume you believe in the Trinity, yet the Hebrew writers when referring to God did not have a good grasp on that either. We understand Gods word more as time goes by.[/quote:46c2e]

Really? I thought the catholic church had the definitive understanding of scripture.

 

[Paidion]

Let's read the following passage carefully, and ask ourselves whether or not it teaches that aeonion life is a reward:

For he will render to everyone according to his works: to those who by perseverance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give aeonion life; but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth, but are persuaded by wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil ... but glory and honour and well-being for every one who does good ... For God shows no partiality. (Romans 2:6-11)

 

[Drew]

Let's read the following passage carefully, and ask ourselves whether or not it teaches that aeonion life is a reward:

For he will render to everyone according to his works: to those who by perseverance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give aeonion life; but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth, but are persuaded by wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil ... but glory and honour and well-being for every one who does good ... For God shows no partiality. (Romans 2:6-11)

Well, tie me to an ant hill and smother me with honey......

Someone who does not sweep Romans 2 under the rug or try to hide it away as one tries to hide an embarassing relative....

Having said this, and lauded you on your very first post no less, I will express the view that the works which are indeed the basis of the granting of eternal life are substantially not "our" works but rather the works of the Holy Spirit acting through us. I believe that this distinction is important.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

[quote="CP_Mike":6fffc]... It seems to me that the definition of 'soul' you are using is not necessarily the view as meant by the Hebrew writers....

Well, as for the "soul", the Latin word for soul is "anima", where we get the word "animation". Why? Because it is the "animating" force of the body. EVERY living thing therefore has a "soul": Trees, birds, aomebas.. ...whatever. But in MAN, the soul is a "spiritual" soul - there is no dualism between the two. (Thomas Aquinas often differentiated between he "sensitive" souls of animals and the "rational" soul of man.)

I assume you believe in the Trinity, yet the Hebrew writers when referring to God did not have a good grasp on that either. We understand Gods word more as time goes by.

Really? I thought the catholic church had the definitive understanding of scripture.[/quote:6fffc]

Actually, there are only a handfull of specific Scripture verses that the Church has authoritatively defined.