Is God Omniscient?

[Who Says]

I would say that is an example of God not exhaustively micro-managing the future, he seemed content to allow Jerimaih to die until Jerimaih prayed and changed his mind.

Genesis 6:5-6 "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 ¶And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."

How do you explain that God "saw" and was "grieved" by what he "saw" and so "repented" "that he had made man on the earth"?

Now, don't get me wrong. I am not saying that God was absolutely taken by surprise. Nothing is or can be beyond his wisdom to handle. But I am saying that what he saw was even worse than he in his unreachably high knowledge (as compared to us) and in his unreachably high wisdom to use that knowledge to discern things (as compared to us) had expected to see.

I believe man exceeded his expectations in the degree of wickedness they resorted to and that grieved him because it was not in his heart to have to destroy all mankind.

But then something else happened: Genesis 6:8 "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD."

This reminds me of another scripture: Jeremiah 17:10 "I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings."

And yet another: 1 Chronicles 28:9 "And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever."

And yet another: Genesis 18:20-21 "And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know."

 

[Elijah674]

I will not ever believe that the Godhead of the Eternal Gospel (Rev. 14:6) were caught off guard & supprised when they found Lucifer in rebellion, (see Rom. 4:17's last part of the verse!) and not knowing when that ETERNAL start was!

And the hair of ones head are numbered + David said that God spake and it stood fast + Job says that God hung the earth on nothing! But you can look up your own verses, huh?;)

 

[Who Says]

I will not ever believe that the Godhead of the Eternal Gospel (Rev. 14:6) were caught off guard & supprised when they found Lucifer in rebellion, (see Rom. 4:17's last part of the verse!) and not knowing when that ETERNAL start was!

And the hair of ones head are numbered + David said that God spake and it stood fast + Job says that God hung the earth on nothing! But you can look up your own verses, huh?;)

I hope myself that nobody is claiming he is ever caught off guard.

I have more faith in the greatness of his wisdom to deal with whatever arises than that.

He need not know every minor detail to not be caught off guard.

Nothing can occur that is too great for his wisdom to handle.

Romans 4:17 is in reference to what he counsels and purposes to be just as Isaiah chapter 46. He steps in and does all he counsels.

 

[warhorse]

Genesis 6:5-6 "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 ¶And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."

How do you explain that God "saw" and was "grieved" by what he "saw" and so "repented" "that he had made man on the earth"?

Now, don't get me wrong. I am not saying that God was absolutely taken by surprise. But I am saying that what he saw was even worse than he in his unreachably high knowledge (as compared to us) and in his unreachably high wisdom to use that knowledge to discern things (as compared to us) had expected to see.

I believe man exceeded his expectations in the degree of wickedness they resorted to and that grieved him because it was not in his heart to have to destroy all mankind.

But then something else happened: Genesis 6:8 "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD."

This reminds me of another scripture: Jeremiah 17:10 "I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings."

And yet another: 1 Chronicles 28:9 "And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever."

And yet another: Genesis 18:20-21 "And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know."

I see a God who chooses to intervene as it pleases him. Destroying the planet because the world was dead in sin was a loving act of a God who desired to salvage what was lost because of Adam through again, the faith of Noah.

 

[Who Says]

I see a God who chooses to intervene as it pleases him. Destroying the planet because the world was dead in sin was a loving act of a God who desired to salvage what was lost because of Adam through again, the faith of Noah.

Nobody can dispute the truth of that.

 

[Elijah674]

I hope myself that nobody is claiming he is ever caught off guard.

I have more faith in the greatness of his wisdom to deal with whatever arises than that.

He need not know every minor detail to not be caught off guard.

Nothing can occur that is too great for his wisdom to handle.

Romans 4:17 is in reference to what he counsels and purposes to be just as Isaiah chapter 46. He steps in and does all he counsels.

************
'He need not know every minor detail to not be caught off guard.'

What is a minor thing with the Godhead that They do not know?? It sure seems to me that you and they are very far apart on that one, for now at least?? See Eccl. 12:13-14
************

 

[Who Says]

************
'He need not know every minor detail to not be caught off guard.'

What is a minor thing with the Godhead that They do not know?? It sure seems to me that you and they are very far apart on that one, for now at least?? See Eccl. 12:13-14
************

Yes, I agree. I did not mean minor as in unimportant. I mean minor as in minute (small).

It is actually a lack of faith in his knowledge and wisdom to believe that he has to know every detail ahead and does not need to use discernment. The scripture clearly says he "ponders the heart" so as to know things.

And the teaching of Omniscience does more harm than good. We do not need it as Christians to see that he is God and unchallengable. We do not need it to support our faith on.

So why teach a thing that so well supports the unrighteous claims made by the unbelievers who say he caused sin and its misery? That to my way of thinking is like wanting to keep those unbelievers from learning who God really is and that is a horrid violation of love.

 

[Elijah674]

Yes, I agree. I did not mean minor as in unimportant. I mean minor as in minute (small).

It is actually a lack of faith in his knowledge and wisdom to believe that he has to know every detail ahead and does not need to use discernment. The scripture clearly says he "ponders the heart" so as to know things.

And the teaching of Omniscience does more harm than good. We do not need it as Christians to see that he is God and unchallengable. We do not need it to support our faith on.

So why teach a thing that so well supports the unrighteous claims made by the unbelievers who say he caused sin and its misery? That to my way of thinking is like wanting to keep those unbelievers from learning who God really is and that is a horrid violation of love.

Yes, 'i' know. That is also what satan taught Cain in Gen. 4:7. (details are unimportant!) And his mostly believed lies of Gen. 3
are A-OK as well.
Take care.

--Elijah674

PS: And your 2 Cor. 4:2 'twisting' question is funny as well! Whatever! Eccl. 3:15

 

[ada]

How will you answer such a question if we have no idea what it really means?
All i know is we know nothing.But God! Yes cause he defined all.



Jesus Christ talking.

Isaiah 66:1
Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been,
saith the LORD:
but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.



Acts 7:48-60
48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
50 Hath not my hand made all these things?
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

 

[Who Says]

How will you answer such a question if we have no idea what it really means?
All i know is we know nothing.But God! Yes cause he defined all.



Jesus Christ talking.

Isaiah 66:1
Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been,
saith the LORD:
but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.



Acts 7:48-60
48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
50 Hath not my hand made all these things?
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

That is what he knows (1) by his great wisdom to discern that men's choice to have their own free will combined with their limited knowledge and wisdom would lead to this very thing. (2) He then looks and sees it. He sees their way and knows what it says about their heart and what goes on in their heart by what he sees.

But if our faith was dependent on God knowing every little detail of everything, that would be an improper reason for our faith. Our faith must come only one way, that we too look and see from creatoin around us that God is and that God is good. That spurs us to begin to love God so that our faith begins to work in love. That is what he looks for in us and that is what he rewards.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 ¶Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

We not only do not need to believe in Omniscience to have faith, it can even devalue our faith if we do.

 

[Drew]

Hmmm...beautifully written, but He either is perfect or He is not perfect in all things. Anything else is a logical contradiction.

I don't think things are this simple. We know from the 2 Kings 20 example that God had a "plan" - to let Hezekiah die - and then he revised that plan in response to prayer. Personally, I have no trouble with this, but I suggest some would say this violates "perfection" - a God who plans one thing and then changes His mind.

But that is plainly what the 2 Kings 20 account shows us - God sometimes does "change His mind".

 

[Drew]

If God can not know the future perfectly, then on what do you rest your hope of Christ's return?

There is no conceptual problem with believing that God has "limited" knowledge of the future but can still ensure that Christ will return.

Let's say I am playing tennis against the present men's champion (whoever that is). I suck at tennis, I really do. Now suppose that we further constrain this experiment by saying that this world champion, Mr. X, will not get sick, or break a leg, or quit. Mr X. does not perfectly know the future - he does not know how I will react to his shots. And yet, under the constraints I have specified, he is assured of winning. His goal of winning is not challenged in any way by his lack of perfect knowledge of how I will play - no matter how I play, he will win.

Similarly, God will act on His promise to send Jesus back, even if He does not have exhaustive knowledge of the future.

But, in any event, I politely suggest that the 2 Kings 20 example proves that God did know Hezekiah's future perfectly, at least at the point in time when he was planning to let him die of his illness.

 

[Drew]

I'll start by laying out some givens.

1. God knows the end from the beginning as well as all the possible outcomes of the decisions (paths) man will make but may or may not know which paths man will choose along the way to get to those infinate number of possible outcomes.

2. Man has the ability to choose his own actions BUT has very limited ability to control the consequences of his choices. In other words, man is sentient and free, but limited by his own ability and mortality.

3. God has an expectation of man based on man's God-given potential and holds man accountable for man's decisions and actions.

I agree. And further to point 1: I believe it can be conclusively demonstrated that God can ensure certain things will happen even if human beings are "free". And, as I believe you also hold to be the case, this has everything to do with our limited abilities in relation to His.

 

[Who Says]

Yes, 'i' know. That is also what satan taught Cain in Gen. 4:7. (details are unimportant!) And his mostly believed lies of Gen. 3
are A-OK as well.
Take care.

--Elijah674

PS: And your 2 Cor. 4:2 'twisting' question is funny as well! Whatever! Eccl. 3:15

Sorry it offends you that I speak respectfully what I see the Bible to teach.

Do you know what paradigms are? It is your paradigm that keeps you from relating to what I say. We all struggle with that. That is why I do not forget my own face that I saw in the mirror of God's word and disrespect you. I am no better than anyone else, Elijah. But God loves me because I sincerely try. That is 1 Corinthians 8:1-3, remember?

I do respect your opinion and your right to believe what you believe.

My certain hope (which is as real to me as though reality) is that God will refine us to get past judging each other and cease our devouring with words those we are supposed love.

 

[Who Says]

There is no conceptual problem with believing that God has "limited" knowledge of the future but can still ensure that Christ will return.

Let's say I am playing tennis against the present men's champion (whoever that is). I suck at tennis, I really do. Now suppose that we further constrain this experiment by saying that this world champion, Mr. X, will not get sick, or break a leg, or quit. Mr X. does not perfectly know the future - he does not know how I will react to his shots. And yet, under the constraints I have specified, he is assured of winning. His goal of winning is not challenged in any way by his lack of perfect knowledge of how I will play - no matter how I play, he will win.

Similarly, God will act on His promise to send Jesus back, even if He does not have exhaustive knowledge of the future.

But, in any event, I politely suggest that the 2 Kings 20 example proves that God did know Hezekiah's future perfectly, at least at the point in time when he was planning to let him die of his illness.

Genesis 18:21 "I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know."

Here is the damage that teaching does: http://www.christianforums.net/f43/gods-morality-34019/#post516884

 

[Elijah674]

I don't think things are this simple. We know from the 2 Kings 20 example that God had a "plan" - to let Hezekiah die - and then he revised that plan in response to prayer. Personally, I have no trouble with this, but I suggest some would say this violates "perfection" - a God who plans one thing and then changes His mind.

But that is plainly what the 2 Kings 20 account shows us - God sometimes does "change His mind".

My God does not do that! Mal. 3:6 + Heb. 13:8! The purpose of different reversals as you claim, are for the eternal [records] where every avenue of the changing of His mind as some see it, is for us to have RECORDED IN ETERNITY that the Godhead is LOVE! All His 'changings' have been forknown, and done for this purpose! Isa. 5:4 below tells us why this is recorded.

Every thing posted up so far is ample proof of Eternal 'DOCUMENTATION' that God had left NOTHING UNDONE to save mankind, and that if They had of changed their mind, even this would do no good! See Luke 16:31. And you think that God did not for/know that He were to be asked to extend the life of Hezekiah in 2 Kings 20:16? Or that God would give him 15 more years + his bad decisions to follow? I WILL NEVER BUY INTO THAT STUFF!

And Job says: 'Hell is naked before Him, and destruction hath NO Covering. He stretcheth [out the earth over the empty place, and hangeth the earth on nothing] Job 26:6-7 And that was not known by Them before it was done you say!

And David?? He says:

Psalms 33:6-9
By the Word of the Lord (Christ!) were the heavens made; [and all the host of them] by the [BREATH OF HIS MOUTH]. ....
For He SPAKE, AND IT WAS DONE; HE COMMANDED, AND IT STOOD FAST.']

But you'ins say that 'MY CHRIST GOD' is not Omniscient!:silly

And They will have shown what They had Eternally known, that which the Universe when it is all over will understand, that GOD COULD DO NOTHING MORE TO SAVE MANKIND! And then Obadiah 1:16 will be required! See Isa. 5:4 'What could have been done more to My vineyard, that I have not done in it?'

Everything in the Everlasting Gospel of Rev. 14:6 proves Their Love forwards & eternally backwards in whatever [questionable] way that They could be required to do to SAVE MANKIND! Even see Jude 1:22-23.

And you will find Christ in person as God checking everything out for this ETERNAL RECORD'S Sake. And you say that Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15 has a Godhead that has not DOCUMENTED THEIR OMNISCIENT'S So Matt. 2:15 Might be Fulfilled! Matt. 24:34 Fullfilled!, Mark 14:49, John 19:36 fullfilled! As God knew & decreed in Eternities OMNISICENT!

And it is interesting how all of satans GARBAGE WAS PRE/RECORDED right down to you'ins, in Their Eternal For/knowledge!

But that is just one FALSE doctrine to find what else helps makes up the Rev. 17:1-5 stockpile of satans 'Tower of Babel garbage'. Matt. 6:24 A created 'g'od christ is just another false Doctrine against Christ that John WARNED about! + much more stuff!

---Elijah

 

[Who Says]

Genesis 6:5 "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 ¶And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."

Genesis 22:12 "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me."

Deuteronomy 11:12 "A land which the LORD thy God careth for: the eyes of the LORD thy God are always upon it, from the beginning of the year even unto the end of the year."

2 Kings 19:16 "LORD, bow down thine ear, and hear: open, LORD, thine eyes, and see: and hear the words of Sennacherib, which hath sent him to reproach the living God."

2 Chronicles 16:9 "For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars."

Job 24:22 "He draweth also the mighty with his power: he riseth up, and no man is sure of life.
23 Though it be given him to be in safety, whereon he resteth; yet his eyes are upon their ways."

Job 34:21 "For his eyes are upon the ways of man, and he seeth all his goings.
22 There is no darkness, nor shadow of death, where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves."

Job 36:7 "He withdraweth not his eyes from the righteous: but with kings are they on the throne; yea, he doth establish them for ever, and they are exalted."

Psalms 11:4 "The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men."

Psalms 34:15 "The eyes of the LORD are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry."

Psalms 66:7 "He ruleth by his power for ever; his eyes behold the nations: let not the rebellious exalt themselves. Selah"

Proverbs 5:21 "For the ways of man are before the eyes of the LORD, and he pondereth all his goings."

Proverbs 15:3 "The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good."

Proverbs 16:2 "All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits."

Proverbs 21:2 "Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts."

Isaiah 37:17 "Incline thine ear, O LORD, and hear; open thine eyes, O LORD, and see: and hear all the words of Sennacherib, which hath sent to reproach the living God."

Jeremiah 16:16 "Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the LORD, and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks.
17 For mine eyes are upon all their ways: they are not hid from my face, neither is their iniquity hid from mine eyes."

Amos 9:8 "Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD."

Exodus 12:23 "For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you."

1 Samuel 16:7 "But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart."

Job 4:21 "For his eyes are upon the ways of man, and he seeth all his goings.
22 There is no darkness, nor shadow of death, where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves.
23 For he will not lay upon man more than right; that he should enter into judgment with God."