Is Jehovah A God Of Hatred?

[Hidden In Him]

I have been having an interesting discussion with Jeremiah 1, and His contention is that God does not just hate sin but also hates the sinner. He quotes the following verses:

Psalm 5:5 (KJV 1900): 5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight:
Thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

The word “workers” is personal pronoun meaning the person.

Psalm 11:5 (KJV 1900): 5 The Lord trieth the righteous:
But the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

The “wicked “ is a personal pronoun meaning the person.

Does this mean that He is going to walk in perpetual hatred, or simply that He hates them only for a time, until judgment is brought? I ask because the wicked will continue to exist in the afterlife, and if taken a certain way it means He would have to remain a God of Hatred eternally in some sense, yes?

 

[miamited]

Hi Hidden In Him

I believe, from the Scriptures, that there are people that God hates. Paul claims that Jacob was loved of God and Esau was hated. The Scriptures give several examples that there are people, who perform certain actions, that He hates.

Leviticus 20:23

Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I will drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them.

I define to abhor something or someone as hate. According to the Psalms:

The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; you hate all who do iniquity.

Deuteronomy 18:12

For whoever does these things is detestable to the Lord; and because of these detestable things the Lord your God will drive them out before you.

The above verse certainly is worded as god hating the person who does detestable things.

However, let me be clear that because God hates something or someone, doesn't negate the fact that He is a God of love. Because even for those people, faith in His Son can save them.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Hidden In Him]

Hi Hidden In Him

I believe, from the Scriptures, that there are people that God hates. Paul claims that Jacob was loved of God and Esau was hated. The Scriptures give several examples that there are people, who perform certain actions, that He hates.

Leviticus 20:23

Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I will drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them.

I define to abhor something or someone as hate. According to the Psalms:

The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; you hate all who do iniquity.

Deuteronomy 18:12

For whoever does these things is detestable to the Lord; and because of these detestable things the Lord your God will drive them out before you.

The above verse certainly is worded as god hating the person who does detestable things.

However, let me be clear that because God hates something or someone, doesn't negate the fact that He is a God of love. Because even for those people, faith in His Son can save them.

God bless,
Ted

Alright, Ted.

How then would you deal with the verse where Jesus said God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son? If He finds the sinner detestable, then how did He love the world?

 

[miamited]

Alright, Ted.

How then would you deal with the verse where Jesus said God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son? If He finds the sinner detestable, then how did He love the world?

Because I understand, as I've just explained, that God's love isn't the same as we understand love in a lot of cases. Yes, the Scriptures are clear that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. Just as God has shown His love for us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

I'm not sure that I understand the contradiction that you're trying to set up for my response.

But look, if it makes your theology easier to swallow knowing that God loves everyone the same, then go for it.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Hidden In Him]

But look, if it makes your theology easier to swallow knowing that God loves everyone the same, then go for it.

That's not what I asked, nor what I believe.

I asked you to reconcile the verses cited in the OP with John 3:16.

 

[miamited]

That's not what I asked, nor what I believe.

I asked you to reconcile the verses cited in the OP with John 3:16.

Hi Hidden In Him

I thought that was what I did. Sorry. I guess I just don't understand 'what' it is that you're asking of me in your post.

God bless,
Ted

 

[for_his_glory]

Since miamited brought this up I will use Esau for an example as God did not hate Esau, but sore displeased with him in his deception of selling his birthright, Genesis 25. God said He also created evil and this is what fell upon Esau as we read in Malachi 1:2-5.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The word translated "evil" is from a Hebrew word kelalah that means adversary, affliction, calamity, distress and misery. This is what God has created and puts on those who He has cursed for their rebellion against Him so they know "I AM" in all sovereignty, Deuteronomy 27:11-26.

Exodus Chapter 7-11 is a witness of the "Great I AM" and what God brought forth in His affliction, calamity, distress and misery on Pharaoh and the Egyptians.

God gave Pharaoh and the Egyptians a chance to repent and turn back to Him, but they rejected God as Pharaoh hardened his heart against God like so many even today do this.

2Chronicles 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

 

[Hidden In Him]

2Chronicles 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Thanks for the reply, sister.

Seems to me you are saying that if the sinner repents then God's hatred turns to love, correct? (if I am understanding you correctly).

What I'm looking for, however, is how one reconciles that He states how He both hates and loves the sinner when they are still in sin. The knee jerk reaction is simply to say He hates the sin but loves the sinner, yet the scriptures I quoted in the OP and some of those miamited did say He hates the sinner themselves as well.

I have my own answer but I am looking for others.

 

[hawkman]

I have been having an interesting discussion with Jeremiah 1, and His contention is that God does not just hate sin but also hates the sinner. He quotes the following verses:

Psalm 5:5 (KJV 1900): 5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight:
Thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

The word “workers” is personal pronoun meaning the person.

Psalm 11:5 (KJV 1900): 5 The Lord trieth the righteous:
But the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

The “wicked “ is a personal pronoun meaning the person.

Does this mean that He is going to walk in perpetual hatred, or simply that He hates them only for a time, until judgment is brought? I ask because the wicked will continue to exist in the afterlife, and if taken a certain way it means He would have to remain a God of Hatred eternally in some sense, yes?

I would say in these two verses it is a type of sinner be talked about .

"Workers of iniquity" , not just someone found in iniquity but someone who practices iniquity as a habit , an unrepentant sinner .

"The wicked and him that loveth violence " , again a person who practices sin as a habit , an unrepentant sinner .

These are sinner's that should know to do good but are not following God's teachings or laws at the time of Psalms .

Knowing what is right and not doing so , I can see God hating these sinners .

But does that mean God hates ALL sinners ? No .

 

[Hidden In Him]

I would say in these two verses it is a type of sinner be talked about .

"Workers of iniquity" , not just someone found in iniquity but someone who practices iniquity as a habit , an unrepentant sinner .

"The wicked and him that loveth violence " , again a person who practices sin as a habit , an unrepentant sinner .

These are sinner's that should know to do good but are not following God's teachings or laws at the time of Psalms .

Knowing what is right and not doing so , I can see God hating these sinners .

But does that mean God hates ALL sinners ? No .

That is the best answer I've gotten so far, brother, and it's kinda in line with what I was thinking, but clarified it more than I would have. I full well know God loves everyone because He IS love, and the apostle John said so. But there are certainly some He takes less pleasure in, and there are some that while still engaging in evils He detests and hates, in the moment that is, or in other words, while they are still continuing to engage in the sins without suffering retribution for it. But do we still feel the same hatred towards such people when they finally get what's coming? or is our hatred assuaged finally, because now they are paying for the evils they committed, and sometimes very severely.

I think what happens is that God hates them in their sin, and when their sin is brought to an end through judgment, His hatred is assuaged through justice, which means His hatred is still deeply connected to the sin itself. But I think He even loves those in Hell today who are suffering for their sins, and weeps for them, wishing they had chosen to go another way. That is what a God of Love is like, so I could never sympathize with the notion that He walks in a state of perpetual hatred towards others even after they have been judged. Makes no sense to me, on any level quite frankly.

Thanks for the response. That was excellent.

 

[for_his_glory]

Thanks for the reply, sister.

Seems to me you are saying that if the sinner repents then God's hatred turns to love, correct? (if I am understanding you correctly).

What I'm looking for, however, is how one reconciles that He states how He both hates and loves the sinner when they are still in sin. The knee jerk reaction is simply to say He hates the sin but loves the sinner, yet the scriptures I quoted in the OP and some of those miamited did say He hates the sinner themselves as well.

I have my own answer but I am looking for others.

I never said God hated anyone as I believe the word hate in that verse means sore displeased like God was with Esau and would that all like him would turn back from their sin within His longsuffering and patience before it's to late to do so, 2Peter 3:9. I only used Esau as an example of a sinner that no matter the sin one can repent and come back to God.

 

[miamited]

Hi Hidden In Him

That is what a God of Love is like, so I could never sympathize with the notion that He walks in a state of perpetual hatred towards others even after they have been judged. Makes no sense to me, on any level quite frankly.

I also don't think that God walks around perpetually hating those who have been judged. I believe He just sweeps them out of His sight. It's done. The plan has been laid out, choices made and then comes judgment. I believe that after judgment, God turns His attentions only to those living in the New Jerusalem on the new earth in the new heavens. This is why I don't think the 'eternal torment' is some work of the hand of God, but rather just the torment of the lusts that caused them to refuse God in the first place. The Scriptures just say that the lost will be tormented day and night forever. It doesn't ever say that such torment is some act of God's work.

Consider someone who commits a murder and then comes to the conclusion that he did wrong. The fulfillment of such an act will cause that person to then be tormented by what they've done. Consider also, that if my understanding of the Scriptures is correct, that all of the lost will be cast together into the same place, then they're going to be spending eternity with some pretty bad folk. They could be tormented by those others who are there with them.

No, I agree that after judgment, I don't think God hates those who were lost. I think He willfully puts them out of His thougts at that point. What would be the point of Him spending eternity hating people that aren't a part of His children? Just set them apart and be done with it. Furthermore, the torment could be that once they are cast into hell they are tormented by the choices that they didn't make, that wound them up where they are. There are several reasons that a person may feel torment that aren't a part of God's doing.

I mean ultimately the word 'torment' just means that someone suffers from mental anguish, when used as a noun.

God bless,
Ted

 

[for_his_glory]

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Those who are cursed of God are those of their own choice and ignorance to live after the lust of the flesh that will be cast into the lake of fire in final judgement and remembered no more of the Lord. It's not because God did not love them, but they did not love God and turned away from Him.

I can't see a God of love also being a God of hate, but that of righteous judgement.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I never said God hated anyone as I believe the word hate in that verse means sore displeased like God was with Esau and would that all like him would turn back from their sin within His longsuffering and patience before it's to late to do so, 2Peter 3:9. I only used Esau as an example of a sinner that no matter the sin one can repent and come back to God.

I understand. Only the actual word used in the LXX is indeed "hate" in the Greek, so you either have to translate the word differently than its common meaning in both Classical and Biblical usage, or reinterpret the meaning. Or in the case of Hawkman and I, place it within its context and limit it to that.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I also don't think that God walks around perpetually hating those who have been judged. I believe He just sweeps them out of His sight. It's done. The plan has been laid out, choices made and then comes judgment. I believe that after judgment, God turns His attentions only to those living in the New Jerusalem on the new earth in the new heavens.

You don't think God ever looks upon those who suffer judgments with pity in the aftermath?

This is why I don't think the 'eternal torment' is some work of the hand of God, but rather just the torment of the lusts that caused them to refuse God in the first place. The Scriptures just say that the lost will be tormented day and night forever. It doesn't ever say that such torment is some act of God's work.

Beyond the purview of this tread, but neither Hell nor the Lake of Fire created/ will create themselves. They are created for a purpose, and specifically BY God.

No, I agree that after judgment, I don't think God hates those who were lost. I think He willfully puts them out of His thougts at that point. What would be the point of Him spending eternity hating people that aren't a part of His children?

But going back to the verses in the OP, suppose they receive judgment and yet are still in the middle ground and trying to decide if they should repent and turn to God or not, and this indecision goes on for years? It would be like giving up on them entirely, if God simply put them out of His mind after they suffered judgment. Judgment is often corrective, which goes back to my original question: How can God both Hate and Love the sinner?

 

[miamited]

Hi Hidden In Him

You don't think God ever looks upon those who suffer judgments with pity in the aftermath?

Honestly all I know about God is what He's revealed to me in the Scriptures. If I were guessing, as you are, I think He just blots the wicked from His mind after judgment. I mean what would be the purpose for God to grieve over something that is done and done for all eternity?

Beyond the purview of this tread, but neither Hell nor the Lake of Fire created/ will create themselves. They are created for a purpose, and specifically BY God.

Oh yes, absolutely! God creates everything that is a physical place. My contention isn't that God didn't create the place that they are in, but that God is the one then tormenting them when they are in that place. I think their torment is their own unfulfilled lusts. And the fear and anxiety of living eternally with billions and billions of people who are some, even more wicked than others. It would be like some good, righteous person living in the middle of the worst ghetto in the world. That person would likely be tormented quite a lot with all the shootings and screaming and yelling and fights and struggles of his daily life living among such overall wickedness.

But going back to the verses in the OP, suppose they receive judgment and yet are still in the middle ground and trying to decide if they should repent and turn to God or not, and this indecision does on for years?

Well, I think the Scriptures are clear that after judgment there is no 'second chance' to be had. So yes, even that would just be a torment to them. They can stand around and say to you and me, "Well, I was always undecided." Such a claim might make him feel better telling you and I that they were always undecided, but I don't think that's going to make any difference to God after the judgment. As I understand the Scriptures, the moment of our death our decision is made. We are with Jesus or we aren't.

Judgment is often corrective, which goes back to my original question: How can God both Hate and Love the sinner?

And honestly, I don't see how what you've said brings us back around to this point about God both hating and loving the sinner. And I think you may be mixing some words. Punishment and discipline, in the Scriptures, are not synonymous with judgment. The judgment seat of God is the time when all will be set in their eternal destinies. That is when God will open the books and each person is judged for how they lived their life. At that point, as I understand the Scriptures, it's all over.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Hidden In Him]

Oh yes, absolutely! God creates everything that is a physical place. My contention isn't that God didn't create the place that they are in, but that God is the one then tormenting them when they are in that place. I think their torment is their own unfulfilled lusts. And the fear and anxiety of living eternally with billions and billions of people who are some, even more wicked than others. It would be like some good, righteous person living in the middle of the worst ghetto in the world. That person would likely be tormented quite a lot with all the shootings and screaming and yelling and fights and struggles of his daily life living among such overall wickedness.

Yes, although as a traditionalist on most Christian doctrine, I believe it is not just their unfulfilled lusts and the rest of the tormented there, but the demons, who execute torment on those they successfully deceived and seduced.

Well, I think the Scriptures are clear that after judgment there is no 'second chance' to be had. So yes, even that would just be a torment to them. They can stand around and say to you and me, "Well, I was always undecided." Such a claim might make him feel better telling you and I that they were always undecided, but I don't think that's going to make any difference to God after the judgment.

I didn't mean after their final judgment but before it, Lol, but it's not important.

Punishment and discipline, in the Scriptures, are not synonymous with judgment.

His punishments are a form of judgment, but that's such a long discussion that we may have to forego it for now.

 

[miamited]

Hi Hidden In Him

Yes, although as a traditionalist on most Christian doctrine, I believe it is not just their unfulfilled lusts and the rest of the tormented there, but the demons, who execute torment on those they successfully deceived and seduced.

That's also a strong possibility. After all the Scriptures do tell us that the place of eternal torment was initially intended for fallen angels. However, it still isn't God.

As for the rest, what specific judgment found in the Scriptures are you referencing?

God bless,
Ted

 

[Hidden In Him]

As for the rest, what specific judgment found in the Scriptures are you referencing?

That would be a long answer and I don't have the time to go through the Bible atm, especially since most of His judgments against the wicked resulted in their deaths (Korah, Sodom and Gomorrah, the flood generation, etc).

But as far as being corrective yet without bringing death, his judgments against various nations in OT times come to mind. I'd have to see if I can't find better and more specific examples later.