Is Love Really the Greatest?

[WIP]

I am moving this thread to the A&T forum.
WIP

 

[Spockrates]

No problem.

 

[Spockrates]

A summary for anyone just finding this discussion thread since it was moved:

1. We've rejected a few reasons why love is greater than faith and hope.
2. Two reasons why love is greater we have not found good reasons to reject.
3. The first accepted reason why love is greater is love lasts forever, but faith and hope appear to end.
4. The second accepted reason why love is greater is Jesus says the greatest commandment is to love, but he does not say the greatest commandment is to have faith or hope.
5. Another virtue that is also great was suggested, and this virtue is wisdom.
6. I wonder if love is greater than even this virtue, or if wisdom is greater than love and possibly greatest of all.

 

[Spockrates]

So what does everyone think?

Love?

Wisdom?

Which is greater?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

[*]Another virtue that is also great was suggested, and this virtue is wisdom.
[*]I wonder if love is greater than even this virtue, or if wisdom is greater than love and possibly greatest of all.
[/LIST]

Even wisdom is but a means to the end--the end that counts--that end being love.

"The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." (Galatians 5:6 NIV)

Faith that does not lead to love is a big fat nothing. James even says that kind of faith (the faith that does not love) is the faith that can not save a person. I would suggest the same is true of wisdom. Wisdom that is not acted out in love for others is a big fat nothing. That is not greater than love.

 

[Spockrates]

[*]Another virtue that is also great was suggested, and this virtue is wisdom.
[*]I wonder if love is greater than even this virtue, or if wisdom is greater than love and possibly greatest of all.
[/LIST]

Even wisdom is but a means to the end--the end that counts--that end being love.

"The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." (Galatians 5:6 NIV)

Faith that does not lead to love is a big fat nothing. James even says that kind of faith (the faith that does not love) is the faith that can not save a person. I would suggest the same is true of wisdom. Wisdom that is not acted out in love for others is a big fat nothing. That is not greater than love.

Yes, but how would I discern whether your opinion is true or not? Would James advise me to use love or wisdom for discernment?

If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you.

(James 1:5)
​

 

[Spockrates]

Or read a little further after the verse you quoted:

You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth?

(Galatians 5:7)

​

If you and I were the Galatians to whom Paul was writing, would love or wisdom give us the answer to his question?

 

[iLOVE]

"...we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love you have for all God’s people— 5 the faith and love that spring from the hope stored up for you in heaven and about which you have already heard in the true message of the gospel " (Colossians 1:4-5 NIV)

... See Romans 5:3-5 NASB what produces hope.

The obedience of character is a validation of the hope we have.

"11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end" (Hebrews 6:11 NASB)

Obedience shows that you really do possess the hope that you think/say you do, thus reinforcing that hope.

It's a never-ending cycle: The message of hope produces faith (Colossians 1:4-5). Faith produces the character quality of love (Galatians 5:6). The obedience of love in turn validates and reinforces the hope we profess (Hebrews 6:11, 2 Peter 1:10-11, and Romans 5:3-4 as you pointed out).

The message of hope does not produce faith. Colossians 1:4-5 is telling Christians what faith is. It does not say hope produces faith.

Hebrews 11:1 (KJV) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Romans 10:17 (NIV) Faith comes by hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

 

[Spockrates]

The message of hope does not produce faith. Colossians 1:4-5 is telling Christians what faith is. It does not say hope produces faith.

Hebrews 11:1 (KJV) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Romans 10:17 (NIV) Faith comes by hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Do you think it might help, iLove to define faith and hope? I wonder if the truth might be that if one does not produce the other, one still cannot exist without the other. So rather than one being the mother of the other, one might instead be the wife of the other. Not sure if that is the truth, or if it helps your discussion with Jethro.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The message of hope does not produce faith. Colossians 1:4-5 is telling Christians what faith is. It does not say hope produces faith.

Hebrews 11:1 (KJV) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Well, actually the Colossians passage does say that.

So you believe that faith comes before even hearing about the gospel? How does that work? Faith is the substance of something you have not even heard about yet? That's not reasonable.

"How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard?" (Romans 10:14 NASB)

Clearly the message of hope has to come before believing in the message of hope!

Romans 10:17 (NIV) Faith comes by hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

How is it that you can not see from your own quote that faith comes from the message of hope first?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

[*]Another virtue that is also great was suggested, and this virtue is wisdom.
[*]I wonder if love is greater than even this virtue, or if wisdom is greater than love and possibly greatest of all.
[/LIST]

Even wisdom is but a means to the end--the end that counts--that end being love.

"The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." (Galatians 5:6 NIV)

Faith that does not lead to love is a big fat nothing. James even says that kind of faith (the faith that does not love) is the faith that can not save a person. I would suggest the same is true of wisdom. Wisdom that is not acted out in love for others is a big fat nothing. That is not greater than love.

Yes, but how would I discern whether your opinion is true or not? Would James advise me to use love or wisdom for discernment?

If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you.

(James 1:5)
​

Do you think standing before God merely possessing wisdom is somehow a greater virtue than having put that wisdom to work and having righteous works to show at the resurrection?

Even the wisdom of what I just said is just a means to an ends, not the ends itself. That's why love is the greatest of all.

Maybe it makes more sense when you understand that Biblical love is action, not just feelings or emotions or good intentions. James and John both illustrate how good intentions don't mean anything. In fact, James says you can't be saved by a faith that only has good intentions, but no action.

 

[iLOVE]

The message of hope does not produce faith. Colossians 1:4-5 is telling Christians what faith is. It does not say hope produces faith.

Hebrews 11:1 (KJV) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Romans 10:17 (NIV) Faith comes by hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Do you think it might help, iLove to define faith and hope? I wonder if the truth might be that if one does not produce the other, one still cannot exist without the other. So rather than one being the mother of the other, one might instead be the wife of the other. Not sure if that is the truth, or if it helps your discussion with Jethro.

Question: "What is the Christian's hope?"
http://www.gotquestions.org/hope-bible.html

Question: "What does the Bible say about faith?"
http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-faith.html

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Or read a little further after the verse you quoted:

You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth?

(Galatians 5:7)

​

If you and I were the Galatians to whom Paul was writing, would love or wisdom give us the answer to his question?

Both, of course, but if are to then not love, what good is that wisdom and intention of loving if you don't actually love?

Hard truth to swallow for a church presently locked into it's 'faith alone' indoctrination.

 

[iLOVE]

The message of hope does not produce faith. Colossians 1:4-5 is telling Christians what faith is. It does not say hope produces faith.

Hebrews 11:1 (KJV) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Well, actually the Colossians passage does say that.


So you believe that faith comes before even hearing about the gospel? How does that work? Faith is the substance of something you have not even heard about yet? That's not reasonable.

"How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard?" (Romans 10:14 NASB)

Clearly the message of hope has to come before believing in the message of hope!

Romans 10:17 (NIV) Faith comes by hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

How is it that you can not see from your own quote that faith comes from the message of hope first?

It is important that Christians do not add words or subtract words from the bible. This is how cults start.

Questions for you - Do you attend church? Have you been baptized with the Holy Spirit (filled)?

 

[Spockrates]

Or read a little further after the verse you quoted:

You were running a good race.Who cut in on youto keep you from obeying the truth?

(Galatians 5:7)

​

If you and I were the Galatians to whom Paul was writing, would love or wisdom give us the answer to his question?

Both, of course, but if are to then not love, what good is that wisdom and intention of loving if you don't actually love?

Hard truth to swallow for a church presently locked into it's 'faith alone' indoctrination.

I can see how love feels and how love does, but I don't quite see how love understands. Perhaps something Socrates said might help me see what you see:

No matter what the subject, there is for those who wish to deliberate well upon it always one and the same starting point: You must know what it is you are deliberating about, or you will inevitably fail altogether. Most people, however, are not aware of their ignorance of a thing’s essential nature, and because they think they know all about it, they fail to secure agreement about the premises of their inquiry at its beginning. As they proceed, they reap the predictable harvest of this oversight: They disagree with one another and even contradict themselves. Now, you and I must not be guilty of this fundamental error that we condemn in others.

(Phaedrus 237)
​

You see? To know what it is you are talking about, I think it would help me if you answer two questions: (1) What is love? and (2) What is wisdom? Once I know what you mean by the words (how you define love and wisdom) I'll better understand why you believe it is possible for love to discern the truth.

 

[Spockrates]

Do you think standing before God merely possessing wisdom is somehow a greater virtue than having put that wisdom to work and having righteous works to show at the resurrection?

Even the wisdom of what I just said is just a means to an ends, not the ends itself. That's why love is the greatest of all.

Maybe it makes more sense when you understand that Biblical love is action, not just feelings or emotions or good intentions. James and John both illustrate how good intentions don't mean anything. In fact, James says you can't be saved by a faith that only has good intentions, but no action.

I think I'll better be able to answer your question once you define wisdom for me, but I'll take a stab at answering, now: I'd say that I'd be extremely unwise to stand before God possessing wisdom I know but no love I've done. Rather than wise, I'd be a fool, or a coward, to never act on the wisdom God has given me. I also think it is likely not possible to stand before God with acts of love, but no wisdom at all. The two, it seems to me, are essential.

Now I know that you believe hope produces faith, but don't you also believe (as I do) that wisdom produces love? For isn't the wisest thing anyone might do be to love as God has taught her to love? And isn't this one reason why Paul prayed prayers such as this?

I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.

(Ephesians 1:17)

​

So isn't every act of godly love also an act produced by godly wisdom?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It is important that Christians do not add words or subtract words from the bible. This is how cults start.

Why are you telling me this?

Questions for you - Do you attend church?

Aren't we all really just part of one big church?

Have you been baptized with the Holy Spirit (filled)?

Oh, you mean 'happy, happy, happy, WOOOOOOOOO!'

Of course I am.

Grab your favorite flowered shirt and come to church with me!

http://youtu.be/pQZ0YFe0o9M?t=6m39s

 

[Sinthesis]

Wisdom does not produce love, but acknowledges it. It illuminates and reveals the justification of love. The fool will not see a justification for love.

 

[iLOVE]

I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.

(Ephesians 1:17)

This is a very powerful prayer for all Christians to pray for.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

To know what it is you are talking about, I think it would help me if you answer two questions: (1) What is love?

"10 Love does no harm to a neighbor." (Romans 13:10 NASB)

IOW, love is seeking the good of another person.

...and (2) What is wisdom?

Can't think of a Biblical definition of that off the top of my head, so we'll go with the dictionary definition:

1. The ability to discern or judge what is true, right, or lasting; insight.
2. Common sense; good judgment: "It is a characteristic of wisdom not to do desperate things" (Henry David Thoreau).
4. A wise outlook, plan, or course of action.

(from http://www.thefreedictionary.com/wisdom)

These seem to fit how the Bible uses wisdom, so I'll go with these.