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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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Is systematic theology unnaturally precise?
- Thread starter JM
- Start date
jgredline said:
Sorry, I should've wrote, "Geilsers work to be less precise taking a long winded approach and more rhetorical in style." As you know Geilser and Grudem are opposite ends of the theological spectrum...it's good that you've had a chance to study both. Geilser doesn't believe that gifts are for today, he's Arminian and is a dispensationalist where Grudem believes in the gifts, he's a Calvinist and Covenantal.
Have you read Chafer's massive works? It went on sale for 49.99 on christianbook.com It's very well written even if you disagree with him.
Peace,
jm
jgredline
Member
JM said:
Actually, Geisler says and he has a book why I am not a 5 point calvinist.
In this book he tears apart modern day calvinism. John Calvin as I am sure you know did not come out with the 5 points (tulip) He also goes on to tear apart Armenism. In the end he says he is calvinistic in his beliefs but is more to the middle of both which is the same with me. I can argue and defend both views, but both have flaws in them. I will write more in a little bit.
Oh, geisler does believe in the gifts of the spirit. Where did you get he does not?
lovely
Member
I think I have really had to learn the hard way in so many areas, but the area of commentary might be the most significant for me. I just thought I would share my own struggle in this area.
Concerning systematic theology, the Word is so interwoven that to break it down in such a fashion is like trying to apply a paint by numbers process, to a magnificent work of art that is inspired, and creatively fashioned by a master, THE MASTER, in this case. How can man's system be better than God's ONE OF A KIND...Living Word?
The disciples grew in understanding as they served Christ, and that became a strong foundation for building the church, and spreading the Gospel. Later their growth rose from the love they had for Him, and the leading of the Holy Spirit in their own experiences as they walked, suffered, fellowshipped, and shared...all for Him. The epistles is how they dealt with the churches, and they are rich...very rich.
Some things in the Word are so closely related that it's hard to separate them, without making them unrecognizable, and frankly, distorted. And, some things are just unexplainable. I think error get's started when a single truth is highlighted, and is then mixed with man's wisdom. I am becoming more aware of this as God deals with me personally.
I know that I must be ready to give an answer, but I want the answer to be that of God's genuine Truth, and not my own opinion. There is a child's song that my children, and I, listen to... "Be ready to give an answer to show what you believe, write God's Word in your heart, before you wear it on your sleeve. Shine your light for Jesus..." Why do I need to be ready to give an answer? To defend the Gospel for the protection of the church, and to share the Gospel for the sake of a lost, and dying, world. Why do I study to show myself approved? Because, I am a light of Truth in a lost world, and I represent my Master, my Father, in the serious work of spreading the Gospel.
Systematic theology has, at one point in my walk, encouraged me to place more emphasis on the HOW, highlighting specific truths (or not), and less emphasis on the WHO. I am grieved by that. I prefer expository preaching for this same reason, because it just moves me through the Word year, after year, and the Spirit helps me absorb all of it, as I worship God in the Word. I do not get caught up in breaking it down into self-help topics that I try to accomplish in my own power, or in a "perfect" theology. There are no gaps when I study the Word in this fashion, just more layers of Truth that the Spirit unfolds for me year after year. The Word builds upon itself, and interprets itself, and it has miraculously transformed me...it's amazing, beautiful, and a bundled gift of love letters from my Creator. It opened my eyes for salvation, and continues to sustain me as I feast upon it, and drink of the Living water. If I take out one single ingredient, it changes the whole meal, and if I focus on one single ingredient, the meal is not a meal at all.
I just think being a student of the Word sometimes means just reading it, asking the Spirit to help me absorb it, and then applying day to day in my life in a sincere effort to please God. A simple approach, I guess. I don't want to be forever learning, but failing to come to the knowledge of the truth in a way that is evident by a real transformation in my Spirit...Love, Charity, Peace, Kindness...etc. I don't want that to be me, but I know I can't gain these gifts myself...God gives these gifts to His children.
I think systematic theology has clouded my ability to view the tapestry of the Word as a whole in the past. I also think systematic theology has dumbed down my spiritual walk in a sense. It has inhibited me from learning in an experiential way certain truths, and that has caused me to lack true compassion for others, and has kept me from growing in a way that I could be etched out in true Godly character. A child purified in the fire, and refined to a point where I posess the truth in conviction (because it's part of me), and not just in understanding for the sake of apologetics, that's what I desire, and pray about. I have so much more growing to do in this area. It is my desire to stay focused on God, and what HIS Truth is, instead of what I believe truth is based on my own understanding. Which is far below God's.
Of course, once I posess that Truth, my intent is to defend it with all of me, until God changes my heart on the matter. But, I want to be in a place in my walk that I can recognize when I am wrong when HE shows me. I want to be given over to Him in such a way that I grow more humble in my thoughts, my speech, my learning (more pliable), and in the everyday work of living my life even in my fellowship with other believers, and unbelievers, as a means to sharpen me, and yet convicted to the point that I am able to, in His strength, swim against the current...any current.
In the past, I have magnified one area so much, that I began to make theology, and methods, my idols, and in doing so bound myself, and perhaps others, with a law that is not true. To be perfectly honest this is just plain old fashioned self-righteousness, and pride, and simply just a desire to be right...which is wrong. It is also the a sign post to the path of judmentalism. In making too much over specific points, I have overshadowed the Gospel with self (man's wisdom), and caused myself to loose site of my own gift of life. Perhaps I have even caused younger brothers, and sisters, to stumble, and have just simply repelled the lost. For that, I am so sorry. It is better to build a foundation by learning God's simple principals, as a young child does, and then pray that the Spirit helps me to see the layers of God's Truths for the purpose of knowing Him better, and learning His will, as I grow in His light of truth in genuine sanctification.
I do think that these types of books can be useful as a tool, but I am very careful not to place them above the Word of God. If I do not have time to read the Word, then I do not have time to read commentary. I am now willing to reject information from even what I consider the most credible sources. Not in an unteachable way, mind you, but in a MORE teachable way that encourages me to remain given over to God's Truth alone, and causes me to remain prostrate before Him alone.
Sorry this was so lengthy. I just wanted to share my heart a little, the Lord bless you.
Concerning systematic theology, the Word is so interwoven that to break it down in such a fashion is like trying to apply a paint by numbers process, to a magnificent work of art that is inspired, and creatively fashioned by a master, THE MASTER, in this case. How can man's system be better than God's ONE OF A KIND...Living Word?
The disciples grew in understanding as they served Christ, and that became a strong foundation for building the church, and spreading the Gospel. Later their growth rose from the love they had for Him, and the leading of the Holy Spirit in their own experiences as they walked, suffered, fellowshipped, and shared...all for Him. The epistles is how they dealt with the churches, and they are rich...very rich.
Some things in the Word are so closely related that it's hard to separate them, without making them unrecognizable, and frankly, distorted. And, some things are just unexplainable. I think error get's started when a single truth is highlighted, and is then mixed with man's wisdom. I am becoming more aware of this as God deals with me personally.
I know that I must be ready to give an answer, but I want the answer to be that of God's genuine Truth, and not my own opinion. There is a child's song that my children, and I, listen to... "Be ready to give an answer to show what you believe, write God's Word in your heart, before you wear it on your sleeve. Shine your light for Jesus..." Why do I need to be ready to give an answer? To defend the Gospel for the protection of the church, and to share the Gospel for the sake of a lost, and dying, world. Why do I study to show myself approved? Because, I am a light of Truth in a lost world, and I represent my Master, my Father, in the serious work of spreading the Gospel.
Systematic theology has, at one point in my walk, encouraged me to place more emphasis on the HOW, highlighting specific truths (or not), and less emphasis on the WHO. I am grieved by that. I prefer expository preaching for this same reason, because it just moves me through the Word year, after year, and the Spirit helps me absorb all of it, as I worship God in the Word. I do not get caught up in breaking it down into self-help topics that I try to accomplish in my own power, or in a "perfect" theology. There are no gaps when I study the Word in this fashion, just more layers of Truth that the Spirit unfolds for me year after year. The Word builds upon itself, and interprets itself, and it has miraculously transformed me...it's amazing, beautiful, and a bundled gift of love letters from my Creator. It opened my eyes for salvation, and continues to sustain me as I feast upon it, and drink of the Living water. If I take out one single ingredient, it changes the whole meal, and if I focus on one single ingredient, the meal is not a meal at all.
I just think being a student of the Word sometimes means just reading it, asking the Spirit to help me absorb it, and then applying day to day in my life in a sincere effort to please God. A simple approach, I guess. I don't want to be forever learning, but failing to come to the knowledge of the truth in a way that is evident by a real transformation in my Spirit...Love, Charity, Peace, Kindness...etc. I don't want that to be me, but I know I can't gain these gifts myself...God gives these gifts to His children.
I think systematic theology has clouded my ability to view the tapestry of the Word as a whole in the past. I also think systematic theology has dumbed down my spiritual walk in a sense. It has inhibited me from learning in an experiential way certain truths, and that has caused me to lack true compassion for others, and has kept me from growing in a way that I could be etched out in true Godly character. A child purified in the fire, and refined to a point where I posess the truth in conviction (because it's part of me), and not just in understanding for the sake of apologetics, that's what I desire, and pray about. I have so much more growing to do in this area. It is my desire to stay focused on God, and what HIS Truth is, instead of what I believe truth is based on my own understanding. Which is far below God's.
Of course, once I posess that Truth, my intent is to defend it with all of me, until God changes my heart on the matter. But, I want to be in a place in my walk that I can recognize when I am wrong when HE shows me. I want to be given over to Him in such a way that I grow more humble in my thoughts, my speech, my learning (more pliable), and in the everyday work of living my life even in my fellowship with other believers, and unbelievers, as a means to sharpen me, and yet convicted to the point that I am able to, in His strength, swim against the current...any current.
In the past, I have magnified one area so much, that I began to make theology, and methods, my idols, and in doing so bound myself, and perhaps others, with a law that is not true. To be perfectly honest this is just plain old fashioned self-righteousness, and pride, and simply just a desire to be right...which is wrong. It is also the a sign post to the path of judmentalism. In making too much over specific points, I have overshadowed the Gospel with self (man's wisdom), and caused myself to loose site of my own gift of life. Perhaps I have even caused younger brothers, and sisters, to stumble, and have just simply repelled the lost. For that, I am so sorry. It is better to build a foundation by learning God's simple principals, as a young child does, and then pray that the Spirit helps me to see the layers of God's Truths for the purpose of knowing Him better, and learning His will, as I grow in His light of truth in genuine sanctification.
I do think that these types of books can be useful as a tool, but I am very careful not to place them above the Word of God. If I do not have time to read the Word, then I do not have time to read commentary. I am now willing to reject information from even what I consider the most credible sources. Not in an unteachable way, mind you, but in a MORE teachable way that encourages me to remain given over to God's Truth alone, and causes me to remain prostrate before Him alone.
Sorry this was so lengthy. I just wanted to share my heart a little, the Lord bless you.
jgredline said:
It's funny you'd think such a thing, this must be based upon the fact that you haven't read Dr. James White's reponses. Geisler's has done many debates in the past but after Dr. White wrote a book exposing the false assumptions he made, he refused to debate him on the subject. see Potter's Freedom
http://aomin.org/CBFRep2.html
Here's a four part audio: http://www.straitgate.com/geisler/
Yes, you are correct. Calvin placed into a system what all the major Reformers taught [including Luther] about soteriology and was hailed a master theologian for his clearity of logic and thought. It was at Dort in response to the Arminians that we find the 5 points defined.
I've heard he is calling himself a "Cal-minian."
see Signs and Wonders, he also has a few tapes out. He is a dispensationalist and believes tongues are a sign are not for today, it's a different time when they were needed.
Have you read Chafer?
Peace,
jm
lovely, consider Dr. Beeke's Puritan Reformed Spirituality.
http://www.heritagebooks.org/item.asp?bookId=2387
http://www.heritagebooks.org/item.asp?bookId=2387
jgredline
Member
JM said:
I've heard he is calling himself a "Cal-minian."
see Signs and Wonders, he also has a few tapes out. He is a dispensationalist and believes tongues are a sign are not for today, it's a different time when they were needed.
Have you read Chafer?
Peace,
jm[/quote:4cfac]
JM
Sounds good. I will look into what you have said. As far as Dr James White goes, I have not and did not know that those two appologist debated. First understand, I am not defending Geisler. I really enjoy much of his stuff and reading much of what he has written over the years, i do know he beleives in the works of the holy spirit. I will scan some of his stuff and paste into this colum.
Now in saying this My own personal theology is very much in line ''for the most part'' with wayne grudem. Infact I have much of his stuff in my website.
His book is the last one I studied.
Lovely
Now as far as books that are not the bible and commentaries as an example, I try not to look at them. No book other than the bible should dictate your theology. Theology books, commentaries, etc should only be used as guides and not as the word of God. The Bible will and does interpret itself.