Is the curse of barrenness the reason God condemned

[jgredline]

Here is one for my Old testiment buddies

18:22
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.
18:23
Nor shall you mate with any animal, to defile yourself with it. Nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it. It is perversion.
18:24
'Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you.

According to LEVITICUS 18:22–24â€â€Is the curse of barrenness the reason God condemned homosexuality?

According to Jewish belief, barrenness was a curse (Gen. 16:1; 1 Sam. 1:3–7). Children were considered a blessing from the Lord (Ps. 127:3). The blessing of God in the land was dependent on having children (Gen. 15:5). In view of the stress laid on having children, some have argued that it is not surprising that the OT Law would frown on homosexual activity from which no children come. Thus, they conclude that the Bible is not condemning homosexual activity as such, but only the refusal to have children.

 

[SputnikBoy]

I have been arguing these points for months. I agree with you.

 

[unred typo]

jg wrote:According to LEVITICUS 18:22–24â€â€Is the curse of barrenness the reason God condemned homosexuality?


God condemns homosexuality because it is against nature. He didn’t make the nostrils for shoving peas up or the ear canals to store jelly beans. You do that at your own risk. It’s disgusting and hazardous to your health but it probably won‘t give you fatal diseases like homosexuality will.

 

[SputnikBoy]

jg wrote:According to LEVITICUS 18:22–24â€â€Is the curse of barrenness the reason God condemned homosexuality?


God condemns homosexuality because it is against nature.

Scripture please.

He didn’t make the nostrils for shoving peas up or the ear canals to store jelly beans. You do that at your own risk. It’s disgusting and hazardous to your health but it probably won‘t give you fatal diseases like homosexuality will.

I don't want to be drawn into this topic for my own good. Except to say, the act of sex is NOT just for reproduction purposes so your above example is somewhat unnecessary and misleading. Sex is also for recreational (pleasure) purposes and therefore has nothing to do with 'what might be natural'. If someone found storing jelly beans in their ear canals a pleasureable experience, then who would we be to say that it was NOT pleasurable for them, despite being 'unnatural'? Yes, I know ...God isn't forbidding it. So, don't bother yourself. Whatever ...it still amounts to commanding someone to whom it doesn't come naturally that they must receive pleasure from the experience of sex with the opposite gender ...or else! Ludicrous.

If you're honest, you will agree that your above remarks came from your own heart and not from the Bible. You don't REALLY care what the Bible might have to say about it, do you? And this (one's OWN convictions on homosexuality) is the reason why this issue ALWAYS gets out of hand. The fact is that God gives NO reason why homosexuality would be considered an abomination. If He does then please direct me to the text. The OP at least offers a very valid reason why this might be so. At least give the poster the right to post.

Furthermore, most Christians have long since tossed out any actual commands from God anyway. The Big Ten have all but disappeared because Evangelicals hate the 4th. Be that as it may, I do propose that any number of the laws of Exodus and Leviticus cannot be seriously used to point the finger at anyone today ...although I DO feel that boiling a kid in its mother's milk is somewhat disgusting (Exodus 23:19; Deuteronomy 14:21) and should be condemned!

Anyway, I'm gone.

 

[unred typo]

Scripture please.

Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.



I don't want to be drawn into this topic for my own good. Except to say, the act of sex is NOT just for reproduction purposes so your above example is somewhat unnecessary and misleading. Sex is also for recreational (pleasure) purposes and therefore has nothing to do with 'what might be natural'. If someone found storing jelly beans in their ear canals a pleasureable experience, then who would we be to say that it was NOT pleasurable for them, despite being 'unnatural'? Yes, I know ...God isn't forbidding it. So, don't bother yourself. Whatever ...it still amounts to commanding someone to whom it doesn't come naturally that they must receive pleasure from the experience of sex with the opposite gender ...or else! Ludicrous.

If you engage in aberrant behavior, you may find the act itself pleasurable but the consequences will leave physical and/or psychological damage even if it can’t be seen just as much as uncontrolled anger or unbridled gluttony. Sin is basically something that harms you or another person. Sex isn't sin within marriage. Shoving jelly beans in your ears isn’t good for your hearing, even if you love it. You're sinning against your own body. Your ear canal was made specifically to admit sound waves and expel ear wax. Do you think a little common sense could be applied here? Sexual sins include life threatening diseases, emotional scarring and physical damage to the human body. Is that 'love one another'?




If you're honest, you will agree that your above remarks came from your own heart and not from the Bible. You don't REALLY care what the Bible might have to say about it, do you? And this (one's OWN convictions on homosexuality) is the reason why this issue ALWAYS gets out of hand. The fact is that God gives NO reason why homosexuality would be considered an abomination. If He does then please direct me to the text. The OP at least offers a very valid reason why this might be so. At least give the poster the right to post.

You’re absolutely right about the above remarks coming from my heart, but they also are found in the Bible, (which I do really care what it says, btw.) On my heart are written laws about what is right and wrong and one of the right things to do is warn those who oppose themselves. By condoning behavior that is harmful to your body, I’m making it easier for you to ruin your hearing, health, and/or psychological well being. If I love you, I won’t do that.



Furthermore, most Christians have long since tossed out any actual commands from God anyway. The Big Ten have all but disappeared because Evangelicals hate the 4th. Be that as it may, I do propose that any number of the laws of Exodus and Leviticus cannot be seriously used to point the finger at anyone today ...although I DO feel that boiling a kid in its mother's milk is somewhat disgusting (Exodus 23:19; Deuteronomy 14:21) and should be condemned!


I’m not advocating the OT laws be reinstated. They were done away in Christ’s teachings which include and surpass all the ones that involve love for one another and God. Pointing fingers is also condemned. We are here to help one other develop into overcomers, not become defeated and discouraged by sin and it‘s consequences.


Anyway, I'm gone.

Anyway, I’ll try to be here for you if you want to talk it over. If not, get the beans out of your ears and listen to your heart. :wink:

 

[Oscar3]

WOW
This another good question.
I would have to say that I agree with unred typo
I think the scriptre rom1:26 against nature says alot.
One needs only to look at the male and female sex organs. They are made like a puzzle to fit between HUSBAN AND WIFE,
not between adam and steve.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Male and female were 'made' to procreate. Simple as that. So, all recreational sex that does not lead to procreation (as per scripture) must therefore be a sin. Masturbation, of course, is also out. We can't enforce a rule on one and not the other. Sorry, you (heterosexual) guys ...better take a cold shower!

Maybe we should dig out and enforce all of the laws of Leviticus while we're about it instead of being picky. Oh, that's right, I keep forgetting ...we're not under the law any more. The Ten Commandments have been tossed out so those from Leviticus CERTAINLY don't stand a chance. Except for some ...

By the way, unred typo, I'm not gay ...just in case you thought I was. One does not have to be gay simply because they don't have the same mindset as that of the 'stereotypical' heterosexual. I'm unique - how about you?

 

[undertow]

God condemns homosexuality because it is against nature. He didn?t make the nostrils for shoving peas up or the ear canals to store jelly beans.

And God didn't make the mouth for giving "oral pleasure", are you against that as "unnatural"?

 

[SputnikBoy]

Is 'oral pleasure' a homosexual thing? In any event I really don't much care one way or the other. I've got my own problems ...how about you?

 

[unred typo]

Undertow wrote:And God didn't make the mouth for giving "oral pleasure", are you against that as "unnatural"?

The sexual acts of love in a marriage bed is undefiled according to Hebrews 13:4 (Marriage [is] honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.) The mouth was also made to give pleasure as Song of Solomon attests in chapter 1, verse 2: “Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth: for thy love [is] better than wine.†Whether or not it is pleasurable I suppose is a personal thing. :wink:

 

[undertow]

Undertow wrote:And God didn't make the mouth for giving "oral pleasure", are you against that as "unnatural"?

The sexual acts of love in a marriage bed is undefiled according to Hebrews 13:4 (Marriage [is] honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.) The mouth was also made to give pleasure as Song of Solomon attests in chapter 1, verse 2: ?Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth: for thy love [is] better than wine.? Whether or not it is pleasurable I suppose is a personal thing. :wink:

I don't think Solomon claims anything about what the mouth was made for, you seem to be reading that into the text.

But anyway, within marriage "the sexual acts of love" are OK? Is anal sex within marriage OK?

 

[undertow]

Is 'oral pleasure' a homosexual thing?

Mu understanding is that it is something that both straight and gay people do. The same as with anal sex.

 

[unred typo]

SputnikBoy wrote: Male and female were 'made' to procreate. Simple as that. So, all recreational sex that does not lead to procreation (as per scripture) must therefore be a sin. Masturbation, of course, is also out. We can't enforce a rule on one and not the other. Sorry, you (heterosexual) guys ...better take a cold shower!

I don’t agree. Read these and see if scripture doesn’t make some allowances in this:

1Cr 7:2 Nevertheless, [to avoid] fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

1Cr 7:5 Defraud ye not one the other, except [it be] with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.

1Cr 7:8 -9 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

God doesn’t seem to be the cosmic killjoy you think he is. :wink:

SputnikBoy wrote: Maybe we should dig out and enforce all of the laws of Leviticus while we're about it instead of being picky. Oh, that's right, I keep forgetting ...we're not under the law any more. The Ten Commandments have been tossed out so those from Leviticus CERTAINLY don't stand a chance. Except for some ...

Sorry but I have to disagree again. The laws of Christ are the laws that we are under, and they’re all about love for one another and for God. The disciples added that as Gentile believers we should abstain from meat offered to idols, from eating blood and from fornication, (sexual activity other than between husband/wife.) That about covers it.

SputnikBoy wrote: By the way, unred typo, I'm not gay ...just in case you thought I was. One does not have to be gay simply because they don't have the same mindset as that of the 'stereotypical' heterosexual. I'm unique - how about you?

Ok, I try not to judge people by their comments on here. Just for the record, I’m not homophobic. I think homosexuality is a sin against the people themselves who are caught up within it, and they are to be pitied, not hated. It is a sin against one’s own body, much like those who engage in sex with prostitutes.

 

[unred typo]

Undertow wrote: I don't think Solomon claims anything about what the mouth was made for, you seem to be reading that into the text.
But anyway, within marriage "the sexual acts of love" are OK? Is anal sex within marriage OK?

OK, so get real here. It doesn’t say, “Let him not kiss me with the kisses of his mouth: for this is yukky.†Sounds like it is like fine wine and quite pleasurable.

I don’t think anal sex is a good idea for the simple reason that the intestines and anus are designed for eliminating waste. The organs there are not built for the stress and rupture is a distinct possibility. Do you want to take that chance with someone you love? Besides, ever hear of germs? Didn’t your mother teach you to wash your hands after you go potty? She was right. It’s hard to believe I’m having this conversation with an adult. :roll: This is basic good health procedures. I think a little common sense and personal hygiene go along way here.

 

[undertow]

I don?t think anal sex is a good idea for the simple reason that the intestines and anus are designed for eliminating waste. The organs there are not built for the stress and rupture is a distinct possibility. Do you want to take that chance with someone you love? Besides, ever hear of germs? Didn?t your mother teach you to wash your hands after you go potty? She was right. It?s hard to believe I?m having this conversation with an adult. :roll: This is basic good health procedures. I think a little common sense and personal hygiene go along way here.

That you think it isn't a good idea isn't really the issue here. Does God have any problem with anal sex within marriage?

 

[undertow]

OK, so get real here. It doesn?t say, ?Let him not kiss me with the kisses of his mouth: for this is yukky.? Sounds like it is like fine wine and quite pleasurable.

And how is that a claim that the mouth was made for it?

 

[unred typo]

Undertow wrote:That you think it isn't a good idea isn't really the issue here. Does God have any problem with anal sex within marriage?

As long as your getting all anal about this, :wink: I can only tell you my opinion of what God says about this. I don’t know of any specific command to not engage in this activity. I don’t know of any command not to pick your nose either. Like jamming a fork in the toaster, some things are just not a good idea. God specifically says to husbands to love your wives and respect them as the weaker (finer) vessel. If causing bodily harm is loving her, I think you have a warped view of love and respect.

Undertow wrote:And how is that a claim that the mouth was made for it?
The claim was that the mouth was not designed only for speaking and eating, according to the Bible, but to bring pleasure as well. What is your problem? LOL. If you think God doesn’t allow kissing or anything else, believe me, it is your problem. There are no commands about it and nothing unnatural unless you feel it is. Let every man be fully convinced in his own mind. If you feel it is sin, then it is sin for you.

 

[undertow]

The claim was that the mouth was not designed only for speaking and eating, according to the Bible, but to bring pleasure as well.

Where is the claim made in the Bible?

What is your problem? LOL. If you think God doesn?t allow kissing or anything else, believe me, it is your problem.

I haven't suggested that God doesn't allow "kissing or anything else". I have merely said that the mouth wasn't made to give oral sex, just as the anus wasn't made for sex.

There are no commands about it and nothing unnatural unless you feel it is. Let every man be fully convinced in his own mind. If you feel it is sin, then it is sin for you.

This sounds like moral relatavism: "It may be wrong for you but it isn't wrong for me".

 

[unred typo]

hmmmn... a review is in order...
:-D

Undertow wrote:And God didn't make the mouth for giving "oral pleasure", are you against that as "unnatural"?

The sexual acts of love in a marriage bed is undefiled according to Hebrews 13:4 (Marriage [is] honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.) The mouth was also made to give pleasure as Song of Solomon attests in chapter 1, verse 2: “Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth: for thy love [is] better than wine.†Whether or not it pleasurable I suppose is a personal thing.

Undertow wrote back: I don't think Solomon claims anything about what the mouth was made for, you seem to be reading that into the text.
But anyway, within marriage "the sexual acts of love" are OK? Is anal sex within marriage OK?

OK, so get real here. It doesn’t say, “Let him not kiss me with the kisses of his mouth: for this is yukky.†Sounds like it is like fine wine and quite pleasurable.

I don’t think anal sex is a good idea for the simple reason that the intestines and anus are designed for eliminating waste. The organs there are not built for the stress and rupture is a distinct possibility. Do you want to take that chance with someone you love? Besides, ever hear of germs? Didn’t your mother teach you to wash your hands after you go potty? She was right. It’s hard to believe I’m having this conversation with an adult. This is basic good health procedures. I think a little common sense and personal hygiene go along way here.


Undertow replied:That you think it isn't a good idea isn't really the issue here. Does God have any problem with anal sex within marriage?

As long as you're getting all anal about this, :wink: I can only tell you my opinion of what God says about this. I don’t know of any specific command to not engage in this activity. I don’t know of any command not to pick your nose either. Like jamming a fork in the toaster, some things are just not a good idea. God specifically says to husbands to love your wives and respect them as the weaker (finer) vessel. If causing bodily harm is loving her, I think you have a warped view of love and respect.

Undertow replies as if he hasn‘t read any previous answers I wrote:And how is that a claim that the mouth was made for it?

The claim was that the mouth was not designed only for speaking and eating, according to the Bible, but to bring pleasure as well. What is your problem? LOL. If you think God doesn’t allow kissing or anything else, believe me, it is your problem. There are no commands about it and nothing unnatural unless you feel it is. Let every man be fully convinced in his own mind. If you feel it is sin, then it is sin for you.

Undertow then writes, as if in some kind of revolving worm hole time warp: That you think it isn't a good idea isn't really the issue here. Does God have any problem with anal sex within marriage?

Since you only want God’s view and not my interpretation of God’s view, the Bible says that marriage is honorable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. God specifically says to husbands to love your wives and respect them as the weaker (finer) vessel. The Bible also says, in areas where there are no clear commands, to let every man be fully convinced in his own mind because if a man feels something is sin, then it is sin for him.
I don’t know what more you want from me except maybe to badger me into making some hateful retort. If so, sorry, I just think you’re too amusing. :-D

Oh, BTW, Don't forget the one that God does say he "has a problem with:"
Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

 

[undertow]

I don?t know what more you want from me except maybe to badger me into making some hateful retort.

You seem to have conceded that sodomy isn't wrong because it is unnatural, would you accept that?