Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, biblical or not?

[reddogs]

Well lets take a look at what the Bible says will happen to the Wicked...

Job 21:30 King James Version (KJV)
"30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath."

Psalm 37:10 King James Version (KJV)
"10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be."

Psalm 37:20 King James Version (KJV)
"20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."

Psalm 37:28 King James Version (KJV)
"28 For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off."

Psalm 37:38 King James Version (KJV)
"38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off."

Psalm 73:17-18 King James Version (KJV)
"17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.18 Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction."

Psalm 92:7 King James Version (KJV)
"7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:"

Psalm 104:35 King James Version (KJV)
"35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the Lord, O my soul. Praise ye the Lord."

Psalm 145:20 King James Version (KJV)
"20 The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy."

Proverbs 2:22 King James Version (KJV)
"22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it."

Nahum 1:9-10 King James Version (KJV)
"9 What do ye imagine against the Lord? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.10 For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry."

Malachi 4:1King James Version (KJV)
"4 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
"8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

2 Peter 2:6 King James Version (KJV)
"6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;"

2 Peter 2:9-12 King James Version (KJV)
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2 Peter 3:7 King James Version (KJV)
"7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

2 Peter 3:9-10 King James Version (KJV)
"9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. "

Revelation 20:9 King James Version (KJV)
"9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

Revelation 21:8 King James Version (KJV)
"8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Scripture tells us that Christ came so that those who believe would not perish:

John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Matthew 18:14 King James Version (KJV)
Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Its clear from scripture that the wicked will perish, so what does that mean.

 

[Free]

But that isn’t clear; it is only if you leave out verses which show otherwise. If you are wanting to address an issue, it’s a good idea to use all the verses the Bible states on the matter.

 

[TheDeafMan]

My understanding of those verses and others, in context, is that Hell is physical, eternal and painful in many ways. Darkness but zero illumination, memories of missed chances, awareness of what is happening to believers, total isolation. If there is any companionship, it'll be with the people you most dislike. Anything good, positive, uplifting, comforting, pleasurable in any sense will be absent. God is the author of all things good and since Hell is the absence of God, there is then be an absence of all things good. And most scary to me is that it is eternal. Eternal, no chance of ever getting out and knowing that. Everything we know in this life has an end, even if it's death, but Hell is forever. Those who like to talk of soul sleep or annihilation are wrong in their understanding or belief. Hell is eternal, as in Heaven. And, this life, is our only, only chance of making that choice. There is no purgatory, no intermediate state. Once a person dies, their eternal destiny is set. Which is why Paul said that 'today is the day of salvation.' God gave everyone a choice so the message of the Bible is to make the right choice, accept Jesus as your savior and do it today. Tomorrow is guaranteed to no one. Your fate is in your hands, no one else.

 

[reddogs]

But that isn’t clear; it is only if you leave out verses which show otherwise. If you are wanting to address an issue, it’s a good idea to use all the verses the Bible states on the matter.

Ok, lets go deeper in and include those verses and the others that need to be studied and understood as
this is one of the most hardest subjects in the Bible and theologically has been distorted in many ways. So lets look closer in scripture at what the fate of the wicked is and see whether they live throughout eternity in a state of torment or do they perish. We can see that Jesus taught that every soul will be either saved or lost as there is no middle ground. Lets look at Matthew 13:41-43:

"41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear." Matthew 13:41-43

Christ says some will be cast into the fire, and some will shine forth in the kingdom. Notwithstanding what some try to say, Christ never says that some disembodied soul separates from the body at the time of death or that the wicked suffer an eternal torment after they die in some place underground.

Lets see what Christ says in Mark 9:43:

"43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"Mark 9:43.

This words of Christ show that it is the body which goes into the fire, and not some mystical soul. Lets read further what Christ says on this issue in Matthew 5:30:

"30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."Matthew 5:30.

Here Christ speaks of the "whole body" being cast into hell. That means hands, feet, eyes, and all the other members of the physical body. Scripture clearly shows that those who perish in the lake of fire will go there with hands, feet, eyes, and all the physical features of the body. They will not go in some ethereal state of formless spirit or soul. So lets go over where they will be there in a eternal torment in a unquenchable fire, with as some believe, the Devil overseeing it.

 

[TheDeafMan]

...the Devil overseeing it.

Satan will oversee nothing. In the lake of fire, he will be in torment with everyone else. God is in control of Hell.

 

[reddogs]

In the symbolic description of Christ going to war against the kings of the earth and their armies, Revelation 19:18 says that the birds of the air will "eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, . . . and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small." From this it's evident that the wicked will be all be slain at Christ's second coming.

Satan will also be kept from doing any deceiving at this time as he is bound during the millennium. As this time we see that an angel from heaven seizes the dragon, who is the devil, or Satan, and "bound him for a thousand years". He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the "thousand years were ended."
Revelation 20:1-3
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

The word "abyss" (sometimes translated "bottomless pit") is from the Greek "abussos." In the Greek version of Genesis 1:2, the word abussos, translated "the deep," is used to describe the pre-Creation condition of the earth, "formless and empty." Revelation simply means that during the millennium Satan will be confined to this desolate earth with no one to tempt. Some Christians claim that Christ will reign on the earth during the millennium and that the righteous and the wicked will live side-by-side during that time. Scripture doesnt say this or agree with this view for two reasons. First, there isn't the slightest evidence in the New Testament that the righteous and the wicked will live together after Christ's second coming. To the contrary, in His parable of the sheep and the goats, Jesus said that at His second coming the righteous and the wicked will be separated from each other "as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats".
Matthew 25:32-33
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

At the end of the millennium, all of the wicked will be resurrected. Revelation 20:5 says, "The rest of the dead [the wicked] did not come to life [were not resurrected] until the thousand years were ended. Then verse 7 says that "when the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison."
Revelation 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Revelation 20:7
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

So what does this mean, well Revelation 20:3 said that Satan was locked in the abyss "to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended." The reason why Satan cannot tempt anyone during the millennium is that, with the righteous in heaven and the wicked dead, there will be no one to tempt. At the close of the millennium, when the wicked are resurrected, there will once again be people to join him in his rebellion against God. This is what Satan's release from prison to mean as now he can start his deceiving again.

In Revelation 21 John tells us that he saw "the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God." Then we see in verse 9 John says that he saw the wicked surrounding "the camp of God's people, the city he loves." This city is the New Jerusalem, so the descent of the New Jerusalem to earth will occur simultaneously as the wicked are resurrected and Satan is released from his prison. Satan gathers the wicked for battle, and they try to attack the New Jerusalem. However, God will stop Satan and the wicked and they will be destroyed in a lake of fire, not sit around with eternal life, they will be consumed.

 

[reddogs]

So lets go over this fire in which the wicked perish. The fact is that eternal fire does not mean a fire that will never go out as we find same expression is used in Jude concerning the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrha. "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude 7.

In this use for the fire of "eternal" "everlasting" many are applying modern definitions without reference to their ancient contextual usage and violates one of the most fundamental rules of interpretation.

Sodom and Gomorrha are not still burning today, yet they burned with "eternal fire," and we are told that it was an example of something. So what example is it of?

"And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly." 2 Peter 2:6.

The eternal fire which brought Sodom to ashes is an example of what will finally happen to the wicked. So the fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrha will also burn the wicked in the lake of fire. This is a eternal fire as like Sodom and Gomorrha they will be no more as it will burn the wicked to ashes.

 

[reddogs]

...the Devil overseeing it.

Satan will oversee nothing. In the lake of fire, he will be in torment with everyone else. God is in control of Hell.

Very true, the wicked will be consumed in the lake of fire which is the second death, from which they will cease to exist.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Well lets take a look at what the Bible says will happen to the Wicked...

Job 21:30 King James Version (KJV)
"30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath."

Psalm 37:10 King James Version (KJV)
"10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be."

Psalm 37:20 King James Version (KJV)
"20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."

Psalm 37:28 King James Version (KJV)
"28 For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off."

Psalm 37:38 King James Version (KJV)
"38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off."

Psalm 73:17-18 King James Version (KJV)
"17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.18 Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction."

Psalm 92:7 King James Version (KJV)
"7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:"

Psalm 104:35 King James Version (KJV)
"35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the Lord, O my soul. Praise ye the Lord."

Psalm 145:20 King James Version (KJV)
"20 The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy."

Proverbs 2:22 King James Version (KJV)
"22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it."

Nahum 1:9-10 King James Version (KJV)
"9 What do ye imagine against the Lord? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.10 For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry."

Malachi 4:1King James Version (KJV)
"4 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
"8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

2 Peter 2:6 King James Version (KJV)
"6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;"

2 Peter 2:9-12 King James Version (KJV)
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2 Peter 3:7 King James Version (KJV)
"7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

2 Peter 3:9-10 King James Version (KJV)
"9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. "

Revelation 20:9 King James Version (KJV)
"9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

Revelation 21:8 King James Version (KJV)
"8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Scripture tells us that Christ came so that those who believe would not perish:

John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Matthew 18:14 King James Version (KJV)
Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Its clear from scripture that the wicked will perish, so what does that mean.

Your perspective of what scripture says is that of carnal belief in the flesh.
God also declared in His Word that the day Adam disobeyed him he would be dead.
From your severely circumscribed carnal understanding of God's Word you have left yourself no choice but to believe that Adam stopped breathing on that day as well.
Which just as your other non-spiritual, carnally based suppositions would be a lie as well.

Gen 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

 

[TheDeafMan]

Your perspective of what scripture says is that of carnal belief in the flesh.
God also declared in His Word that the day Adam disobeyed him he would be dead.
From your severely circumscribed carnal understanding of God's Word you have left yourself no choice but to believe that Adam stopped breathing on that day as well.
Which just as your other non-spiritual, carnally based suppositions would be a lie as well.

Gen 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

No. Dead in this context means basically two things. Adam, and now all mankind, is dead in the spiritual sense so from now on, everyone will need a savior. Second, death has now entered the human experience. You can see the lifespans of people declining throughout the Pentateuch until they are in the low hundreds, as now.

 

[Free]

Just a general warning that any further violations of the ToS will result in being removed from this discussion.

 

[Free]

First things first, as there are a number of assumptions being made.

Ok, lets go deeper in and include those verses and the others that need to be studied and understood as
this is one of the most hardest subjects in the Bible

I think it's relatively easy compared to other areas in theology.

Notwithstanding what some try to say, Christ never says that some disembodied soul separates from the body at the time of death or that the wicked suffer an eternal torment after they die in some place underground.

You don't believe the soul is separate from the body? What happens to believers and unbelievers at death? Do they cease to exist?

This words of Christ show that it is the body which goes into the fire, and not some mystical soul.

Just the body? Is it a live or dead body?

 

[Scripture Says]

Some will awaken to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt... dan 12:2

 

[Scared]

Well lets take a look at what the Bible says will happen to the Wicked...

Job 21:30 King James Version (KJV)
"30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath."

Psalm 37:10 King James Version (KJV)
"10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be."

Psalm 37:20 King James Version (KJV)
"20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."

Psalm 37:28 King James Version (KJV)
"28 For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off."

Psalm 37:38 King James Version (KJV)
"38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off."

Psalm 73:17-18 King James Version (KJV)
"17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.18 Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction."

Psalm 92:7 King James Version (KJV)
"7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:"

Psalm 104:35 King James Version (KJV)
"35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the Lord, O my soul. Praise ye the Lord."

Psalm 145:20 King James Version (KJV)
"20 The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy."

Proverbs 2:22 King James Version (KJV)
"22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it."

Nahum 1:9-10 King James Version (KJV)
"9 What do ye imagine against the Lord? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.10 For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry."

Malachi 4:1King James Version (KJV)
"4 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
"8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

2 Peter 2:6 King James Version (KJV)
"6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;"

2 Peter 2:9-12 King James Version (KJV)
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2 Peter 3:7 King James Version (KJV)
"7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

2 Peter 3:9-10 King James Version (KJV)
"9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. "

Revelation 20:9 King James Version (KJV)
"9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

Revelation 21:8 King James Version (KJV)
"8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Scripture tells us that Christ came so that those who believe would not perish:

John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Matthew 18:14 King James Version (KJV)
Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Its clear from scripture that the wicked will perish, so what does that mean.

What does it mean? Will they suffer in eternal conscious punishment or be burnt up?

 

[TheDeafMan]

My understanding is that they will be conscious forever. Everyone gets a new body so those in hell will not be destroyed at all, just in unending pain. Those in Heaven will not grow tired or get hurt.

 

[Tenchi]

Its clear from scripture that the wicked will perish, so what does that mean.

"Perish" and "death" don't always mean in Scripture "annihilation," or "wiped out of existence." Instead, "perish" and "death" often convey the idea of separation and the loss of well-being. Adam and Eve, for example, "died" the instant they ate of the Forbidden Fruit:

Genesis 2:16-17
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden,
17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Of course, Adam and Eve didn't die physically in the day they ate of the Forbidden Fruit; they weren't utterly destroyed and removed from existence the moment they disobeyed God. No, what happened was that they were separated from God relationally and spiritually, they ceased to enjoy the fellowship with God that characterized their life in Eden. Their sin would eventually result in their physical death (many hundreds of years later), but the "dying" that happened in the day they ate of the Forbidden Fruit had to do with their intimate communion with God, with their spiritual connection to Him.

The apostle Paul often used the analogy of death to speak of separation rather than annihilation.

Colossians 3:3-4
3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

Here, Paul appears to contradict himself, saying that his born-again audience had died, though they were obviously alive and reading (or, at least, hearing) his words. He says, too, that their life was "hidden with Christ in God." So, Paul seemed to indicate that the Colossian believers were both dead and alive at the same time. How could this be if "died" means "utterly destroyed" and/or "removed from existence"? Clearly, Paul did not intend for "died" to be taken as a literal wiping out of existence but, rather, a description of the separation from the "old man" that had occurred for every born-again believer in Christ. He went into detail on this subject in his epistle to the Roman church:

Romans 6:6-8
6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.
7 For one who has died has been set free from sin.
8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

So, here, again, "died" does not mean "destroyed" in the sense of being annihilated, or removed from existence.

What about "perish"? Does it mean "annihilated"? No, not necessarily.

Matthew 9:17
17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runs out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

In context, when Jesus spoke of old bottles "perishing," he meant "break" (and, perhaps, "could no longer fulfill their purpose"). New wine would burst old bottles and run out of them and this was, for the old bottles a sort of perishing. Nothing in what Jesus said in the verse above suggests that the bottles were annihilated, however.

1 Corinthians 1:18
18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Here's an odd verse, if "perishing" means "utterly removed from existence." Paul wrote that unbelievers are "perishing," that is, they are in the midst of perishing, not experiencing a single instant of total destruction. Perhaps he meant that the lost are moving toward annihilation. But this doesn't fit well with what Paul actually wrote. He indicated that the lost were "perishing," they were in the actual event he described as "perishing," not just moving toward it. Paul, then, used "perishing" in a non-annihilation sense, referring to the the on-going condition of the lost, which he explained in more detail in his second letter to the Corinthian believers:

2 Corinthians 4:3-4
3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.
4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Here, Paul explained what he meant by "perishing": blinded by the "god of this world," unable to see the light of the Gospel of Christ Jesus. This blindness would lead eventually to eternal separation from God in hell, but the fact of the blindness was, in Paul's view, a kind of "perishing" - a condition of terrible, unseen jeopardy due to spiritual separation from God produced by blindness to the Gospel. (John 3:36; Romans 2:4-11) So, then, "perishing" doesn't communicate the idea of "annihilation" in Paul's use of the term in these two occasions.

When I read verses, then, that speak of the "second death," or "destruction," in hell, or that warn of perishing in eternal torment, I don't understand those verses to mean "annihilation." Inasmuch as hell is punishment and punishment entails consciousness (one cannot punish a broom handle, or a rock, or a mud puddle, after all), and inasmuch as hell is everlasting, or eternal, punishment (Matthew 25:46; 2 Thessalonians 1:9), I recognize that the "second death" of hell, the "everlasting destruction" of it, chiefly indicates separation from God and that such separation entails the loss of all well-being, but not of being itself.

 

[reddogs]

My understanding is that they will be conscious forever. Everyone gets a new body so those in hell will not be destroyed at all, just in unending pain. Those in Heaven will not grow tired or get hurt.

No, as that would be eternal life, and we know that is not what God lays out.

 

[reddogs]

"Perish" and "death" don't always mean in Scripture "annihilation," or "wiped out of existence." Instead, "perish" and "death" often convey the idea of separation and the loss of well-being. Adam and Eve, for example, "died" the instant they ate of the Forbidden Fruit:

Genesis 2:16-17
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden,
17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Of course, Adam and Eve didn't die physically in the day they ate of the Forbidden Fruit; they weren't utterly destroyed and removed from existence the moment they disobeyed God. No, what happened was that they were separated from God relationally and spiritually, they ceased to enjoy the fellowship with God that characterized their life in Eden. Their sin would eventually result in their physical death (many hundreds of years later), but the "dying" that happened in the day they ate of the Forbidden Fruit had to do with their intimate communion with God, with their spiritual connection to Him.

The apostle Paul often used the analogy of death to speak of separation rather than annihilation.

Colossians 3:3-4
3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

Here, Paul appears to contradict himself, saying that his born-again audience had died, though they were obviously alive and reading (or, at least, hearing) his words. He says, too, that their life was "hidden with Christ in God." So, Paul seemed to indicate that the Colossian believers were both dead and alive at the same time. How could this be if "died" means "utterly destroyed" and/or "removed from existence"? Clearly, Paul did not intend for "died" to be taken as a literal wiping out of existence but, rather, a description of the separation from the "old man" that had occurred for every born-again believer in Christ. He went into detail on this subject in his epistle to the Roman church:

Romans 6:6-8
6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.
7 For one who has died has been set free from sin.
8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

So, here, again, "died" does not mean "destroyed" in the sense of being annihilated, or removed from existence.

What about "perish"? Does it mean "annihilated"? No, not necessarily.

Matthew 9:17
17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runs out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

In context, when Jesus spoke of old bottles "perishing," he meant "break" (and, perhaps, "could no longer fulfill their purpose"). New wine would burst old bottles and run out of them and this was, for the old bottles a sort of perishing. Nothing in what Jesus said in the verse above suggests that the bottles were annihilated, however.

1 Corinthians 1:18
18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Here's an odd verse, if "perishing" means "utterly removed from existence." Paul wrote that unbelievers are "perishing," that is, they are in the midst of perishing, not experiencing a single instant of total destruction. Perhaps he meant that the lost are moving toward annihilation. But this doesn't fit well with what Paul actually wrote. He indicated that the lost were "perishing," they were in the actual event he described as "perishing," not just moving toward it. Paul, then, used "perishing" in a non-annihilation sense, referring to the the on-going condition of the lost, which he explained in more detail in his second letter to the Corinthian believers:

2 Corinthians 4:3-4
3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.
4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Here, Paul explained what he meant by "perishing": blinded by the "god of this world," unable to see the light of the Gospel of Christ Jesus. This blindness would lead eventually to eternal separation from God in hell, but the fact of the blindness was, in Paul's view, a kind of "perishing" - a condition of terrible, unseen jeopardy due to spiritual separation from God produced by blindness to the Gospel. (John 3:36; Romans 2:4-11) So, then, "perishing" doesn't communicate the idea of "annihilation" in Paul's use of the term in these two occasions.

When I read verses, then, that speak of the "second death," or "destruction," in hell, or that warn of perishing in eternal torment, I don't understand those verses to mean "annihilation." Inasmuch as hell is punishment and punishment entails consciousness (one cannot punish a broom handle, or a rock, or a mud puddle, after all), and inasmuch as hell is everlasting, or eternal, punishment (Matthew 25:46; 2 Thessalonians 1:9), I recognize that the "second death" of hell, the "everlasting destruction" of it, chiefly indicates separation from God and that such separation entails the loss of all well-being, but not of being itself.

Yes, but in this work at the end, God uses it to destroy all the wicked and we can see it in limited form at many times..

Numbers 14:35
I the Lord have said, I will surely do it unto all this evil congregation, that are gathered together against me: in this wilderness they shall be consumed, and there they shall die.

Numbers 16:21
Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment.

Deuteronomy 8:20
As the nations which the Lord destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the Lord your God.

And we see Christ make clear what eternal life is..

John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.