Is This a Church?

[KevinK]

Some of us are currently without a brick-and-mortar service. Does an internet forum "count" as a church?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Kinda sorta.
This is more church than most churches, IMO.
If there was some way to have praise and worship we'd be doing everything a NT church is to do.

 

[ezra]

Some of us are currently without a brick-and-mortar service. Does an internet forum "count" as a church?

no.. i would rather recommend finding a church program on t.v .there are several good pastors out there who are the real thing. forums tend get bit crazy and on the net you can wear the religious mask all ya want or listen on the net jay vernon mcgee has good program charles stanley james merit tony evans .i like forums but not for church

 

[Willie T]

Actually, I think God really did intend for us to have true, face-to-face contact and physical, real world interaction with a variety of people who may, or may not, be ones we would choose to sit down with.

 

[Blake]

No, but it is fellowship.

 

[WIP]

Some of us are currently without a brick-and-mortar service. Does an internet forum "count" as a church?

What is your definition of "a church" and why would it matter whether or not it counts as a church? What really matters is the Church with a capital "C". With that said, I would also say that I believe it is critical to our faith and Biblical that we engage in fellowship with other believers. There is strength in numbers and we are at war with a powerful adversary. A good, caring, faithful church congregation can be a strong force against the temptations of Satan. Unfortunately, we often struggle with our own pride and are reluctant to use the power of the congregation of believers when we should.

 

[OzSpen]

Some of us are currently without a brick-and-mortar service. Does an internet forum "count" as a church?

Kevin,

1 Corinthians 14:26 (NIV) says that this ought to happen when brothers and sisters gather: 'What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up'.

Can that happen on an Internet forum? I don't think so. This concept of the church gathering as being a place where 'each of you has' a ministry input has essentially been eliminated by the larger church gatherings. I understand that the early church often was a house church, but the view that each has a ministry is core Christianity and that ministry can be expressed with the church gathers. That cannot happen on this Internet forum.

There's another dimension from Hebrews 10:23-25 (NLT): '23Let us hold tightly without wavering to the hope we affirm, for God can be trusted to keep his promise. 24Let us think of ways to motivate one another to acts of love and good works. 25And let us not neglect our meeting together, as some people do, but encourage one another, especially now that the day of his return is drawing near.'

Perhaps we can S-T-R-E-T-C-H 'meeting together' to include Internet forums but it's a big stretch as it's difficult to engage in personal encouragement when we all use nom de plumes here. We are not known to each other in a personal way so that we can encourage one another in specifics. Personal details are kept to a minimum in most of our posts.

Oz

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Kinda sorta.
This is more church than most churches, IMO.
If there was some way to have praise and worship we'd be doing everything a NT church is to do.

I agree.
Kinda sorta.

If a person wishes to do pastoring on the forum, they can, as long a they follow a bunch of man made rules.
That's the same as any brick and mortar church.
One can put praise and worship music on here every day.
One can hear a multitude of sermons on any subject.
One can be involved in many Bible studies.
And one can minister to others in many ways.

Yes. this forum is a church, and it really is a church to many people.
P.S. you can even tithe to the forum if you wish.

 

[Corn Pop]

Fellowship in the old days was jumping on a camel and travelling 500 miles through a desert.

Today we just click a button. Oh and dont forget skype.

 

[Kidron]

Some of us are currently without a brick-and-mortar service. Does an internet forum "count" as a church?

--
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[Rollo Tamasi]

--
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Looks like a Scientology class.

 

[KevinK]

What is your definition of "a church" and why would it matter whether or not it counts as a church? What really matters is the Church with a capital "C". With that said, I would also say that I believe it is critical to our faith and Biblical that we engage in fellowship with other believers. There is strength in numbers and we are at war with a powerful adversary. A good, caring, faithful church congregation can be a strong force against the temptations of Satan. Unfortunately, we often struggle with our own pride and are reluctant to use the power of the congregation of believers when we should.

I don't think it matters what my personal definition of "church" is, since I asked the question to understand what God's definition is (through Scripture, of course). It matters because one of the Commandments is to honor the Sabbath. Does this necessarily mean going to a church, and if so does virtual service fulfill the requirement? I think it's a valid question.

On a personal note, I'm in an open-ended situation regarding church going; I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church, but I no longer consider myself in line with that organization (for various reasons that don't matter here, and we're not supposed to address this anyway). I've looked at other churches in my area, but have not found a suitable one as yet (what do I consider suitable? They have to give a fair amount of sermon to the subject of Hell. Maybe under the New Agey influence, churches have gotten away from discussing Hell, much less warning about it. But Hell hasn't gone anywhere, and should be a main topic, I should think.)

 

[ezra]

you have to understand 1. many churches dont want hell preached. 2. many churches odnt want to hear about holliniess

 

[ezra]

forgive that last post i hit wrong button before i could edit. 2. lots of church members don't want to hear about their sins .the flesh is so strong any more it quenches the spirit .i was just asked to resign a church.because i preached the word of God. unity led of the spirit, holiness. walk the walk not just talk the talk ( New Agey influence} more like flesh influenced. when a person preaches tell the devil to leave and get out and stay out. they turn around and ask him to stay. the past 2 weeks has been nothing more than a knock down drag out. when another preacher tells the upset cong member that your biblical correct . biggest problem was denomination. i am ordained gen baptist. pastored a southern baptist church. preached the Bible nothing but lots of scriptures. my adversaries found a way to get rid of me .there is a price to pay when you preach what God tells you to preach. tonight i payed the price . as paul harvery would say and now you know the rest of the story.

 

[WIP]

I don't think it matters what my personal definition of "church" is, since I asked the question to understand what God's definition is (through Scripture, of course). It matters because one of the Commandments is to honor the Sabbath. Does this necessarily mean going to a church, and if so does virtual service fulfill the requirement? I think it's a valid question.

On a personal note, I'm in an open-ended situation regarding church going; I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church, but I no longer consider myself in line with that organization (for various reasons that don't matter here, and we're not supposed to address this anyway). I've looked at other churches in my area, but have not found a suitable one as yet (what do I consider suitable? They have to give a fair amount of sermon to the subject of Hell. Maybe under the New Agey influence, churches have gotten away from discussing Hell, much less warning about it. But Hell hasn't gone anywhere, and should be a main topic, I should think.)

I think it does matter what your definition of church is. Too many think church is a building or a denomination. For example, you asked, what does it mean to honor the Sabbath and then does "going to church" fulfill this requirement? How does going to a building fulfill anything close to honoring the Sabbath? I think we need to understand what it really means to honor the Sabbath.

Your second paragraph clarifies for me where some of your questioning is coming from. Like you, I too was raised in the Catholic teaching and one of the things I learned over the years was how the Catholic church seems to put the church itself above Christ. So much of its teaching revolves around the church rather than the Church. They taught me that failing to attend Sunday mass was a mortal sin. But what I began to realize is that they failed to recognize or admit that spending time in the building for an hour on Saturday evening or Sunday morning means absolutely nothing if one's heart is not in worship to God.

We are called to pray unceasingly, that is, day and night but in my understanding we honor the Sabbath by spending extra time with God; not out of duty, tradition, or habit but out of love for Him. In this respect, Church is the body of Christ and can be anywhere you happen to be at any time of the day or night. Church with a lower case "c" is the building or denomination we attend or belong to for fellowship with other believers for worship and prayer.

 

[ezra]

nothing wrong wrong with denominations the real problem is the members who worship the denom .the building we call a church house only become a church those who are truly saved assemble themselves for the true reason, you see what we call church the body of Christ. has been corrupted by man by using carnal minds .there is the spiritual mind-the mind of Christ controlled led by the spirit. the carnal mind is led controlled by self thinking . example the Church i just left when i was voted in i had %99 of the votes 1 unsure . 2 months later some one get there bloomers in a wad . creates waves is shot down twice regroups gets more people on board. every thing i preached of pure Bible .i never got a chance to preach on hell. i preached to the Church get your relationship with Christ in order live it walk it talk it... guess what that didn't sit well . so a carnal so called lynch mob business meeting was called with 7 member .i walk in and being told its the will of the church i resign.. excuse me ? why did not the entire Church not have a chance to vote? the answer they wanted what they wanted thus the flesh prevailed .they call it a carnal mind.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

nothing wrong wrong with denominations the real problem is the members who worship the denom .the building we call a church house only become a church those who are truly saved assemble themselves for the true reason, you see what we call church the body of Christ. has been corrupted by man by using carnal minds .there is the spiritual mind-the mind of Christ controlled led by the spirit. the carnal mind is led controlled by self thinking . example the Church i just left when i was voted in i had %99 of the votes 1 unsure . 2 months later some one get there bloomers in a wad . creates waves is shot down twice regroups gets more people on board. every thing i preached of pure Bible .i never got a chance to preach on hell. i preached to the Church get your relationship with Christ in order live it walk it talk it... guess what that didn't sit well . so a carnal so called lynch mob business meeting was called with 7 member .i walk in and being told its the will of the church i resign.. excuse me ? why did not the entire Church not have a chance to vote? the answer they wanted what they wanted thus the flesh prevailed .they call it a carnal mind.

Did they tell you that what you are preaching is the reason they fired you?

 

[ezra]

pretty much thats all i done well other than mention foot washing one time... . when you preach the truth and challenge them to get closer to the Lord. they dont like . people was threatening to leave the church...when the church is doing good no one rocking the boat. its the congregation holding it together. when the church attendance drops its the pastor fault

 

[Obadiah]

It's hard for me to always see this forum as the kind of church or fellowship described in the Bible. I used to see it as a form of those things, but have come to a different understanding. I think a lot of the reason for that has stemmed from the already mentioned concept of so many of us (myself included) using fake screen names. If I'd seen things the way I do now, perhaps I would have signed up with my real name instead of Obadiah, which is a nickname that was given to me when I was a teenager because it was a part I played in a Christian puppet show. But even then, fake names are so common that people still wouldn't really know if that was my real name or not! (By the way, my real name's Wayne.) This concept of screen names allows too many people to hide behind the anonymity and say mean spirited things they would never say to someone face to face in a real world church, unless they were itching to be asked not to return due to causing discord and divisions!

Can you imagine if someone walked into a real world church one day, approached a person they didn't even know, and said "Hi, I'm Obadiah (that's obviously not my real name, and I don't want you to know who I really am because I don't want to face you tomorrow at the grocery store or gas station after you hear what I'm about to say to you...) I "love you in the Lord" (coming across with insincerity) but but I disagree with what I just heard you say to someone else about (insert favorite fighting doctrine here) and you are wrong, you obviously don't have the Holy Spirit in you because if you did you would see this the same way I see it. Really, I think you got your information from the devil. And that "perversion" of the Bible that you have in your hand (yes, the one your dear departed loving mother gave you last Christmas) is a tool of the devil because it's not the same translation I use." Yet this kind of thing with variations on these words is said all too often here both in public forums and even worse in private messages. Yes, we try to remove these things before most have to read them, but we can't catch them all instantly and, really, there is truth to the saying that what is said just can't be unsaid. This destroys the kind of fellowship God wants us to have even when it's just a few people who do this. Most real world churches couldn't tolerate even a few people who consistently acted this way.

Another issue is in "pastoring" or ministering to each other. This has been mentioned too, but in reality for someone who has the gifts of a pastor, this is very limited on internet forums. The gifting of a pastor isn't so much in his education or in his writing ability. It's in his ability to see a situation for what it is and to become a channel for the Holy Spirit to work in the other persons life. But most of the gifts and talents that enable a true pastor to do this are much deeper than reading someones cold black and white typing on a computer screen. Without the real world, personal, face to face connection, many of these gifts get hindered to the point of being worthless and a true pastor's effectiveness is greatly reduced. Even a voice call on the telephone is a little better than print on a screen, but nothing comes close to face to face fellowship. I truly believes when the Bible talks about not "forsaking the fellowship of the saints" that even in today's world it is still talking about face to face, real world fellowship. This is true for all Christians, but especially for those who are lead to be pastors or counselors and for those receiving the pastoring or counseling.

While this forum can have some aspects of fellowship and "church" I don't think it (or any internet forum) can ever be a total substitute.

 

[Northman]

It's hard for me to always see this forum as the kind of church or fellowship described in the Bible. I used to see it as a form of those things, but have come to a different understanding. I think a lot of the reason for that has stemmed from the already mentioned concept of so many of us (myself included) using fake screen names. If I'd seen things the way I do now, perhaps I would have signed up with my real name instead of Obadiah, which is a nickname that was given to me when I was a teenager because it was a part I played in a Christian puppet show. But even then, fake names are so common that people still wouldn't really know if that was my real name or not! (By the way, my real name's Wayne.) This concept of screen names allows too many people to hide behind the anonymity and say mean spirited things they would never say to someone face to face in a real world church, unless they were itching to be asked not to return due to causing discord and divisions!

Can you imagine if someone walked into a real world church one day, approached a person they didn't even know, and said "Hi, I'm Obadiah (that's obviously not my real name, and I don't want you to know who I really am because I don't want to face you tomorrow at the grocery store or gas station after you hear what I'm about to say to you...) I "love you in the Lord" (coming across with insincerity) but but I disagree with what I just heard you say to someone else about (insert favorite fighting doctrine here) and you are wrong, you obviously don't have the Holy Spirit in you because if you did you would see this the same way I see it. Really, I think you got your information from the devil. And that "perversion" of the Bible that you have in your hand (yes, the one your dear departed loving mother gave you last Christmas) is a tool of the devil because it's not the same translation I use." Yet this kind of thing with variations on these words is said all too often here both in public forums and even worse in private messages. Yes, we try to remove these things before most have to read them, but we can't catch them all instantly and, really, there is truth to the saying that what is said just can't be unsaid. This destroys the kind of fellowship God wants us to have even when it's just a few people who do this. Most real world churches couldn't tolerate even a few people who consistently acted this way.

Another issue is in "pastoring" or ministering to each other. This has been mentioned too, but in reality for someone who has the gifts of a pastor, this is very limited on internet forums. The gifting of a pastor isn't so much in his education or in his writing ability. It's in his ability to see a situation for what it is and to become a channel for the Holy Spirit to work in the other persons life. But most of the gifts and talents that enable a true pastor to do this are much deeper than reading someones cold black and white typing on a computer screen. Without the real world, personal, face to face connection, many of these gifts get hindered to the point of being worthless and a true pastor's effectiveness is greatly reduced. Even a voice call on the telephone is a little better than print on a screen, but nothing comes close to face to face fellowship. I truly believes when the Bible talks about not "forsaking the fellowship of the saints" that even in today's world it is still talking about face to face, real world fellowship. This is true for all Christians, but especially for those who are lead to be pastors or counselors and for those receiving the pastoring or counseling.

While this forum can have some aspects of fellowship and "church" I don't think it (or any internet forum) can ever be a total substitute.

Completely agree, and it's an absolute travesty it has to be like that. Your second sentence spoke through to my spirit. Man...that whole second paragraph, and the much more that could be added to it...crazy. It's not the first warning, and I've ignored them all thus far, just like a dufus.

You all take care now. Don't worry I'm still pretty spry and the door never catches my back end on the way out. :nod