Isa 66:22-23

[DRS81]

The CITY does not need the sun, moon or stars. Everyone else does.

Who is everyone else? What's the point of having a moon if there is no sea. Rev 21:1 & Rev 20:13.

Rev 21:1 Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth," for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

Your quote from Gill said, "Christ will have a seed to serve him as long as the sun and moon endure." Does that mean he will not have a seed to serve him after the sun and moon are gone? Of course not. Since there will always be a seed of Israel serving Messiah forever, the sun and moon will endure forever as Jeremiah 31:35-36 states.

Again, this scripture is not talking about the New Earth.

Henry's statement, "to the end of time" does not mean time will come to an end after the new earth comes. (see Isa 65:20 and 66:22-23) Time will still exist in the NH & NE. And Gill's statement, "his church shall continue to the end of the world" does not mean the church will end when the world ends.

Again, it is not talking about the New Earth. You're misinterpreting the whole context of what it's saying. Please re-read...

Jer 31:36 is talking about the end of this world, this old world that we live in. The closer we get to the end, the stronger Israel will become. It is simply the promise that God made to Israel, through the promise, covenant, and oath. This is why Restoration theology is false. They have gone on record as saying that Israel has no further place in God's future plan for blessing the nations, nor will the 'kingdom' promises of the OT come to pass specifically for Israel, but only by and through the Church. The Jews rejected their Messiah, they say, and so forfeited their inheritance. But God, who can never lie nor break His Word, has promised specific material blessings of land, prosperity, nationhood, peace and victory to the literal nation of Israel in the future. These promises have never been fulfilled and can only be fulfilled in the context of a re-gathering and spiritual resurrection of Jews in the literal land of Israel. Jer 31:35-37.

It has nothing to do with the New Earth. Notice in the following commentary it says 'to the end of time' and 'the end of the world', there is no end of time or the end of the world on the New Earth. The New Earth will be forever, it will never have an end. The restoration of Israel will occur on this old earth. Have you not read how Israel will defeat the evil nations surrounding them? If you're not aware of this please read the future prophecies of Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38-39. This old earth will have an end, it will be destroyed by God's wrath in the book of Revelation. Also notice in Isa 60:19-20 it says the sun will never set again, and your moon will wane no more.

 

[jocor]

Who is everyone else? What's the point of having a moon if there is no sea. Rev 21:1 & Rev 20:13.

Rev 21:1 Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth," for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

"Everyone else" refers to those living outside the city (the nations of them that are saved - Rev 21:24). The "sea" is not literal. It refers to the restless sea of humanity that will exist until the new heavens and earth come. People are often spoken of as waters (Isa 57:20). In the NH and NE, the waters will be calm and righteousness and peace will prevail.

Again, it is not talking about the New Earth. You're misinterpreting the whole context of what it's saying. Please re-read...

Jer 31:36 is talking about the end of this world, this old world that we live in. The closer we get to the end, the stronger Israel will become. It is simply the promise that God made to Israel, through the promise, covenant, and oath. This is why Restoration theology is false. They have gone on record as saying that Israel has no further place in God's future plan for blessing the nations, nor will the 'kingdom' promises of the OT come to pass specifically for Israel, but only by and through the Church. The Jews rejected their Messiah, they say, and so forfeited their inheritance. But God, who can never lie nor break His Word, has promised specific material blessings of land, prosperity, nationhood, peace and victory to the literal nation of Israel in the future. These promises have never been fulfilled and can only be fulfilled in the context of a re-gathering and spiritual resurrection of Jews in the literal land of Israel. Jer 31:35-37.

It has nothing to do with the New Earth. Notice in the following commentary it says 'to the end of time' and 'the end of the world', there is no end of time or the end of the world on the New Earth. The New Earth will be forever, it will never have an end. The restoration of Israel will occur on this old earth. Have you not read how Israel will defeat the evil nations surrounding them? If you're not aware of this please read the future prophecies of Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38-39. This old earth will have an end, it will be destroyed by God's wrath in the book of Revelation. Also notice in Isa 60:19-20 it says the sun will never set again, and your moon will wane no more.

It doesn't matter what commentators say. Commentators differ on the meaning given to certain texts. You say Jer 31:36 refers ONLY to the current age. I say it refers to every age including the age of the NH & NE. Also, I am well aware of what is prophesied about Israel's future. It is irrelevant to this conversation except for the fact that the seed of Israel will ALWAYS exist just as the sun, moon, and stars will ALWAYS exist.

 

[DRS81]

It is irrelevant to this conversation except for the fact that the seed of Israel will ALWAYS exist just as the sun, moon, and stars will ALWAYS exist.

But that's just your opinion. All your scriptures do not convince me. Why doesn't scripture ever tell us what we will be doing outside of the city?

 

[jocor]

But that's just your opinion. All your scriptures do not convince me. Why doesn't scripture ever tell us what we will be doing outside of the city?

I think our disagreement stems from when the NH & NE come and how it comes. You believe it refers to a time after death is thrown in the LoF. I believe it comes when Yeshua returns to set up the Kingdom of Yahweh on earth at the beginning of the millennium. The old heaven and earth will not literally be destroyed and replaced by new ones. The NH & NE are figurative and refer to a new ruling government (Yeshua as King) and a new kingdom of people. To understand this, you will need a major shift in thinking. Since you started this thread, you decide if you want it to go in this direction. If you are ready, I will explain it step by step.If not, I can start a new thread.

 

[DRS81]

I believe it comes when Yeshua returns to set up the Kingdom of Yahweh on earth at the beginning of the millennium.

No, Rev 20-22 go in order. The New Heaven and New Earth come after the Great White Throne Judgment and after the millennium.

The old heaven and earth will not literally be destroyed and replaced by new ones. The NH & NE are figurative and refer to a new ruling government (Yeshua as King) and a new kingdom of people. To understand this, you will need a major shift in thinking. Since you started this thread, you decide if you want it to go in this direction. If you are ready, I will explain it step by step.If not, I can start a new thread.

I agree that the old earth won't be destroyed, rather it will be cleansed of sin. Thus the seven bowls of God's Wrath.

 

[jocor]

No, Rev 20-22 go in order. The New Heaven and New Earth come after the Great White Throne Judgment and after the millennium.

Explain Rev 22:14-15:

Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying. NASB​

At the same time the city exists on earth, unbelievers will exist outside it's gates. These are the nations that Messiah and his government will rule over throughout the millennium.

And Rev 22:2:

in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.​

Why will the nations need healing AFTER the NH & NE? Won't everyone have eternal life at that time since death has already been thrown in the LoF? People that have eternal life do not need healing.

Rev 20-22 are not in chronological order. Rev 21 describes what will happen at the beginning of the millennium.

 

[DRS81]

Explain Rev 22:14-15:

Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying. NASB​

At the same time the city exists on earth, unbelievers will exist outside it's gates. These are the nations that Messiah and his government will rule over throughout the millennium.

Rev 22:14-15 is specifically a vision given to John.
The vision is simply stating a fact about the condition of people.
It's not describing a certain time and place per say, just the condition of the heart of believers and nonbelievers.
Blessed are those and Outside are the dogs is describing their final state of being.

Why will the nations need healing AFTER the NH & NE? Won't everyone have eternal life at that time since death has already been thrown in the LoF? People that have eternal life do not need healing.

Pulpit Commentary - http://biblehub.com/revelation/22-2.htm
And the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations (cf. Ezekiel 47:12, quoted above, "And the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine"). "The nations" are not the heathen, but the multitude of the redeemed, gathered out of every nation (see on Revelation 21:24). It is, of course, not implied that there is, in the new Jerusalem, any disease which needs healing, but the tree of life is put forward as the means by which the perpetual health and life and general well being of the inhabitants are sustained.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible - http://biblehub.com/revelation/22-2.htm
and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations; not for the curing of diseases, or repairing of health; which in the present state of things is done by the application of the blood of Christ for the pardon of sin, which is a healing of diseases, and by the discoveries of the love of God; through the ministration of the Gospel, and the doctrines of it, which might be thought to be signified by leaves; for there will be no disease either of body or mind in this state; besides, the nations that will walk in the light of this city will be saved perfectly and completely, Revelation 21:4 but these leaves will be for the preserving and continuing the health of the people of God in this state, as the tree of life in Eden's garden was for the preservation of the health and life of Adam, had he continued in a state of innocence; and it denotes that everything in Christ will contribute to the comfort, health, and happiness of the saints. The Jews interpret the passage in Ezekiel 47:12 to which this refers, of future time, or the world to come (f); and speak of various trees and herbs of great fragrancy and medicinal virtues, which grow quite round on the sides of a laver that stands in paradise (g).

Rev 20-22 are not in chronological order. Rev 21 describes what will happen at the beginning of the millennium.

No, Rev 21 occurs after the millennium. Rev 21:4 does not describe the millennium. There will indeed be death, mourning, crying and pain in the millennium and after the millennium. The world will not be cleansed of sin until the devil is thrown into the Lake of Fire. (Rev 20:7-8 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.)

 

[jocor]

I think you trust in commentaries too much.

Explain one more passage for me:

Isa 65:17 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.
Isa 65:18 "But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem for rejoicing And her people for gladness.
Isa 65:19 "I will also rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in My people; And there will no longer be heard in her The voice of weeping and the sound of crying.
Isa 65:20 "No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, Or an old man who does not live out his days; For the youth will die at the age of one hundred And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred Will be thought accursed.
Isa 65:21 "They will build houses and inhabit them; They will also plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
Isa 65:22 "They will not build and another inhabit, They will not plant and another eat; For as the lifetime of a tree, so will be the days of My people, And My chosen ones will wear out the work of their hands.
Isa 65:23 "They will not labor in vain, Or bear children for calamity; For they are the offspring of those blessed by the LORD, And their descendants with them.
Isa 65:24 "It will also come to pass that before they call, I will answer; and while they are still speaking, I will hear.
Isa 65:25 "The wolf and the lamb will graze together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the serpent's food. They will do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain," says the LORD. NASB

As I understand it, this entire passage takes place in the NH & NE at which time death will still exist (vss.20, 22).

 

[DRS81]

Explain one more passage for me:

Isa 65:20 "No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, Or an old man who does not live out his days; For the youth will die at the age of one hundred And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred Will be thought accursed.

Isa 65:20 is not to be taken literal, but figuratively.

Luke 20:35-36 35 "But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 "nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

1 Cor 15:50-54 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

 

[jocor]

Isa 65:20 is not to be taken literal, but figuratively.

Luke 20:35-36 35 "But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 "nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

1 Cor 15:50-54 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

You have absolutely no grounds to say it is figurative. The verses you quoted refer to believers that have been resurrected unto eternal life. Isaiah 65:20 refers to people of the nations living during the millenium and during the NH & NE who have not received eternal life.

 

[DRS81]

You have absolutely no grounds to say it is figurative.

In regards to Isa 65:20, well...

Benson Commentary - http://biblehub.com/commentaries/isaiah/65-20.htm
Isaiah 65:20. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, &c. — There shall he no untimely or premature deaths, either of infants and children, who do not grow up to man’s estate, or of old men, who do not live out the full term of life. For the child shall die, &c. — This should rather be translated, For he that dies a hundred years old shall die a child: and the sinner that dies a hundred years old shall be (that is, shall be deemed) accursed, or cut off by the justice of God for his crime. Thus “the prophet describes this renovation of the world as a paradisiacal state, and such as the patriarchs enjoyed before the flood, when men commonly lived nearly a thousand years. So he that died at a hundred years of age would have been looked upon as dying in the age of childhood, and be judged to have been cut off in the beginning of his years, as a punishment for some great sins he had committed.” — Lowth. It is justly observed here by Mr. Scott, that “the event alone can certainly determine whether this is meant literally or figuratively; but it is evident that the universal prevalence of real Christianity would so terminate wars, murders, contentions, idleness, intemperance, and licentiousness, as greatly to lengthen out the general term of man’s life. Many diseases which now destroy thousands and tens of thousands in the prime of life, and communicate distempers to succeeding generations, would, in that case, scarcely be heard of any more; and thus the human constitution would soon be much mended, and children would generally come into the world more vigorous and healthy than they can do while vice so greatly prevails. What God may further intend in this matter we cannot determine.” Vitringa’s view of the passage seems to have been, that “there shall be no violent or punitive death in this holy city, but that all the inhabitants being holy, all shall die full of days and happy, and shall have, as it were, a foretaste, pledge, and earnest of life eternal, in their long and happy life below.”

Barnes' Notes on the Bible - http://biblehub.com/commentaries/isaiah/65-20.htm
For the child shall die an hundred years old - That is, he that is an hundred years old when he dies, shall still be a child or a youth. This is nearly the same sentiment which is expressed by Hesiod, as quoted above. The prophet has evidently in his eye the longevity of the patriarchs, when an individual of an hundred years of age was comparatively young - the proportion between that and the usual period of life then being about the same as that between the age of ten and the usual period of life now. We are not, I apprehend, to suppose that this is to be taken literally, but it is figurative language, designed to describe the comparatively happy state referred to by the prophet, as if human life should be lengthened out to the age of the patriarchs, and as if he who is now regarded as an old man, should then be regarded as in the vigor of his days. At the same time it is true, that the influence of temperance, industry, and soberness of life, such as would exist if the rules of the gospel were obeyed, would carry forward the vigor of youth far into advancing years, and mitigate most of the evils now incident to the decline of life.

Isaiah 65:20 refers to people of the nations living during the millennium and during the NH & NE who have not received eternal life.

The Judgment of the Dead or some like to call it the Great White Throne occurs before the New Earth jocor, and according to these two scriptures you're wrong about Isa 65:20..

The Lake of Fire - Rev 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
New Jerusalem - Rev 21:27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

The only ones in the NH & NE will be believers, with eternal life..

The Judgment of the Dead - http://biblehub.com/niv/revelation/20.htm
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[jocor]

In regards to Isa 65:20, well...

Benson Commentary - http://biblehub.com/commentaries/isaiah/65-20.htm
Isaiah 65:20. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, &c. — There shall he no untimely or premature deaths, either of infants and children, who do not grow up to man’s estate, or of old men, who do not live out the full term of life. For the child shall die, &c. — This should rather be translated, For he that dies a hundred years old shall die a child: and the sinner that dies a hundred years old shall be (that is, shall be deemed) accursed, or cut off by the justice of God for his crime. Thus “the prophet describes this renovation of the world as a paradisiacal state, and such as the patriarchs enjoyed before the flood, when men commonly lived nearly a thousand years. So he that died at a hundred years of age would have been looked upon as dying in the age of childhood, and be judged to have been cut off in the beginning of his years, as a punishment for some great sins he had committed.” — Lowth. It is justly observed here by Mr. Scott, that “the event alone can certainly determine whether this is meant literally or figuratively; but it is evident that the universal prevalence of real Christianity would so terminate wars, murders, contentions, idleness, intemperance, and licentiousness, as greatly to lengthen out the general term of man’s life. Many diseases which now destroy thousands and tens of thousands in the prime of life, and communicate distempers to succeeding generations, would, in that case, scarcely be heard of any more; and thus the human constitution would soon be much mended, and children would generally come into the world more vigorous and healthy than they can do while vice so greatly prevails. What God may further intend in this matter we cannot determine.” Vitringa’s view of the passage seems to have been, that “there shall be no violent or punitive death in this holy city, but that all the inhabitants being holy, all shall die full of days and happy, and shall have, as it were, a foretaste, pledge, and earnest of life eternal, in their long and happy life below.”

Barnes' Notes on the Bible - http://biblehub.com/commentaries/isaiah/65-20.htm
For the child shall die an hundred years old - That is, he that is an hundred years old when he dies, shall still be a child or a youth. This is nearly the same sentiment which is expressed by Hesiod, as quoted above. The prophet has evidently in his eye the longevity of the patriarchs, when an individual of an hundred years of age was comparatively young - the proportion between that and the usual period of life then being about the same as that between the age of ten and the usual period of life now. We are not, I apprehend, to suppose that this is to be taken literally, but it is figurative language, designed to describe the comparatively happy state referred to by the prophet, as if human life should be lengthened out to the age of the patriarchs, and as if he who is now regarded as an old man, should then be regarded as in the vigor of his days. At the same time it is true, that the influence of temperance, industry, and soberness of life, such as would exist if the rules of the gospel were obeyed, would carry forward the vigor of youth far into advancing years, and mitigate most of the evils now incident to the decline of life.

I underlined the important points in those commentaries to bring out the author's belief.
Those with eternal life cannot die nor do they have children. Their lives cannot be lengthened, nor will they experience "advancing years". "Most of the evils" that lead to a decreased life span will be mitigated, but not all.

The Judgment of the Dead or some like to call it the Great White Throne occurs before the New Earth jocor, and according to these two scriptures you're wrong about Isa 65:20..

The Lake of Fire - Rev 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
New Jerusalem - Rev 21:27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

The only ones in the NH & NE will be believers, with eternal life..

The Judgment of the Dead - http://biblehub.com/niv/revelation/20.htm
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

The only reason you believe this is because the NH & NE appear after the GWT in the book of Revelation. Isaiah 65:20 proves that wrong. Rev 21 & 22 are simply giving more info about what will happen during the millenium.

 

[DRS81]

The only reason you believe this is because the NH & NE appear after the GWT in the book of Revelation. Isaiah 65:20 proves that wrong. Rev 21 & 22 are simply giving more info about what will happen during the millenium.

No I believe this because scripture is clear. The NH & NE will come down after the millennium. The NH & NE will not inherit death, the millennium will however. (Isa 66:24 "And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.") The New Jerusalem will be a part of the NH & NE and will be holy unto the Lord and without death. It says if one is not written in the book of life they are thrown into the lake of fire. It also says if you are not written in the book of life you will not enter into the New Jerusalem. The New Jerusalem is without death. These two scriptures are not talking about the millenium. It is talking about the NH & NE. The millennium and the NH & NE are not the same. Notice it says (Nothing impure will ever enter it). Enter what? Nothing impure will ever enter into the NJ, NH & NE. Do you understand what the book of life is jocor?

The Lake of Fire - Rev 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
New Jerusalem - Rev 21:27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

 

[jocor]

No I believe this because scripture is clear. The NH & NE will come down after the millennium. The NH & NE will not inherit death, the millennium will however. (Isa 66:24 "And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.") The New Jerusalem will be a part of the NH & NE and will be holy unto the Lord and without death. It says if one is not written in the book of life they are thrown into the lake of fire. It also says if you are not written in the book of life you will not enter into the New Jerusalem. The New Jerusalem is without death. These two scriptures are not talking about the millenium. It is talking about the NH & NE. The millennium and the NH & NE are not the same. Notice it says (Nothing impure will ever enter it). Enter what? Nothing impure will ever enter into the NJ, NH & NE. Do you understand what the book of life is jocor?

The Lake of Fire - Rev 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
New Jerusalem - Rev 21:27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

You are using NJ as proof that there is no death in the city. I totally agree. Only those whose names are written in the Book of Life will be resurrected unto eternal life at the beginning of the millennium and will live in it. Outside the city will be nations of people that die. Rev 21:27 does NOT say, "Nothing impure will ever enter into the NJ, NH & NE". It says, "Nothing impure will ever enter IT". The "IT" refers to the city of NJ which the context of verses 9-27 clearly show.

 

[DRS81]

Isaiah 65:20 refers to people of the nations living during the millenium and during the NH & NE who have not received eternal life.

My friend, we need to go back to these scriptures. I don't think you're understanding the bigger picture here. You quoted here that there will be people on the New Earth that have not received eternal life yet, but that's simply not scriptural. Scripture clearly says that the only people on the New Earth are believers with eternal life. The New Jerusalem will be the new city on the New Earth. You're time line puts the NH, NE and NJ inside the millennium and that's an incorrect timeline.

The millennium and the NH, NE and NJ are SEPARATE EVENTS taking place within SEPARATE TIMELINES. Rev 20:15 and Rev 21:27 spells it out for you in big bold letters. Yes, the 'IT' refers to the city of the NJ, but the NJ will be on the New Earth, not the millennium. The renewal of the old earth will not be complete until AFTER the millennium is over. Rev 21:1-2 is not referring to the beginning of the millennium, it's referring to AFTER. Nonbelievers after the millennium are not walking around the New Earth doing whatever. No, Rev 20:15 specifically says they will be cast into the lake of fire! The lake of fire is a specific place.

Rev 21:1-2 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

The Lake of Fire - Rev 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
New Jerusalem - Rev 21:27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

 

[jocor]

My friend, we need to go back to these scriptures. I don't think you're understanding the bigger picture here. You quoted here that there will be people on the New Earth that have not received eternal life yet, but that's simply not scriptural. Scripture clearly says that the only people on the New Earth are believers with eternal life. The New Jerusalem will be the new city on the New Earth. You're time line puts the NH, NE and NJ inside the millennium and that's an incorrect timeline.

The millennium and the NH, NE and NJ are SEPARATE EVENTS taking place within SEPARATE TIMELINES. Rev 20:15 and Rev 21:27 spells it out for you in big bold letters. Yes, the 'IT' refers to the city of the NJ, but the NJ will be on the New Earth, not the millennium. The renewal of the old earth will not be complete until AFTER the millennium is over. Rev 21:1-2 is not referring to the beginning of the millennium, it's referring to AFTER. Nonbelievers after the millennium are not walking around the New Earth doing whatever. No, Rev 20:15 specifically says they will be cast into the lake of fire! The lake of fire is a specific place.

Rev 21:1-2 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

The Lake of Fire - Rev 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
New Jerusalem - Rev 21:27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

We both agree that NJ will be in the NH & NE and that there will be no death in it. Our difference lies in when the NH & NE begin and when NJ comes down.

Rev 21:1-2 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.​

The "NH" means a new government. When Messiah comes at the beginning of the millennium, he will set up a government on earth that will last forever (Daniel 2:44). The "NE" refers to a new kingdom of people that will be ruled over by that new government. Prior to the millennium, the nations will be in great turmoil (the sea), but under Messiah's rule, peace and calm will come over the nations. Death will continue to exist for the nations, but not for those living in NJ. At the end of the millennium the GWTJ will take place. Those who lived wicked lives will be thrown in the LoF along with death and the grave. At that point, there will be no more death in or outside NJ.

NJ's husband is Yeshua who is ruling on earth. He will not wait 1,000 years before his bride finally joins him. She will join him at the start of the millennium.

 

[DRS81]

Our difference lies in when the NH & NE begin and when NJ comes down.

Where in Rev 20:1-6 does it mention the NJ, NH or the NE??
There's a reason why the 1,000 year Millennium and the NJ, NH and NE are in separate chapters.
Dan 2:44 kingdom is not referring to the NJ, NH and NE..it mentions nothing about the NJ, NH or NE.
"Kingdom" in Dan 2:44 refers to Jesus Christ himself..it alludes to John 2:19 and Luke 17:21.
The reason this kingdom can't be destroyed now is because Jesus Christ conquered death at the cross and resurrection.

Isaiah 65:20 refers to people of the nations living during the millenium and during the NH & NE who have not received eternal life.

Again, the NH, NJ and NE are separate events and will not take place in the millennium.
How can the earth be new if Satan isn't dead yet and people are still dying and in pain?
Rev 21:4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

 

[jocor]

Where in Rev 20:1-6 does it mention the NJ, NH or the NE??
There's a reason why the 1,000 year Millennium and the NJ, NH and NE are in separate chapters.
Dan 2:44 kingdom is not referring to the NJ, NH and NE..it mentions nothing about the NJ, NH or NE.
"Kingdom" in Dan 2:44 refers to Jesus Christ himself..it alludes to John 2:19 and Luke 17:21.
The reason this kingdom can't be destroyed now is because Jesus Christ conquered death at the cross and resurrection.

Daniel 2:44 refers to Messiah coming out of heaven to destroy the ten toes of the image (ten kings). The ten toes seem to equate with the ten horns on the beast of Rev 13:1. How can it be fulfilled by Yeshua's first coming if the ten toes were not yet existing at that time?

When Messiah returns at the last trumpet (the 7th trumpet of Revelation 11), then all earthly kingdoms will begin to be destroyed and become his.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Messiah; and he shall reign for ever and ever.​

Again, the NH, NJ and NE are separate events and will not take place in the millennium.
How can the earth be new if Satan isn't dead yet and people are still dying and in pain?
Rev 21:4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

Rv 21:4 does not give a definite time for those things to occur. It doesn't say it will happen all at once, just that it will happen. It will start with those in NJ at the start of the millennium and will completely be fulfilled at the end of the millennium after death is destroyed.

 

[DRS81]

Rv 21:4 does not give a definite time for those things to occur.

But you presume that you know it is in the beginning of the millennium, and that's a big claim.
Again, Dan 2:44 says nothing of the NH, NJ and NE.
HE coming OUT of heaven is different than a CITY coming DOWN on the earth.

Rev 20 and 21 specifically gives us a timeline that goes directly in order..
1. First, John sees an angel coming down out of heaven giving him the vision of the 1,000 year reign Rev 20:1.
2. Then the judgment of Satan occurs Rev 20:7.
3. Then the Great White Throne occurs Rev 20:11.
4. Then the New Heaven and New Earth occurs Rev 21:1.

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.
Rev 20:7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them
Rev 21:1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”a for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

Notice in the passages above it says... (1. And I saw), (2. When the thousand years are over), (3. THEN I saw), (4. THEN I saw).
The phrases in parenthesis gives us a timeline, do you see the timeline in the wording?
So I have a question for you... why in the world would John put these in order and then say "no, jocor it doesn't happen in that order".
Do you know what I'm getting at here?

 

[jocor]

HE coming OUT of heaven is different than a CITY coming DOWN on the earth.

Correct. Yeshua comes out of heaven first to destroy the ten toes. Then his bride, NJ, comes down to meet him.

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.
Rev 20:7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them
Rev 21:1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”a for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

Notice in the passages above it says... (1. And I saw), (2. When the thousand years are over), (3. THEN I saw), (4. THEN I saw).
The phrases in parenthesis gives us a timeline, do you see the timeline in the wording?
So I have a question for you... why in the world would John put these in order and then say "no, jocor it doesn't happen in that order".
Do you know what I'm getting at here?

The Greek word "kai" was used 9249 times in the NT. It was translated "and" 8172 times and "then" 20 times in the KJV (105 times in the NASB). I believe "and" is the correct translation. It simply connects verses without reference to chronology.