Growth Israel and the Church Contrasted

[jasonc]

Hi J - The eternal earthly ministry of the Jews saved after seeing Christ will have a different covenant that the prior one (Jer 31:32). There are some who confuse this prophecy with the present Christian Jews since Christ, but it is not related to Christians, for they will not be under a covenant like the final Millennium Jews, like all the remaining population of Israel will be.

a new covenant , unlike the one at mt.horeb. uhm. what will it be? three covenants? he came to isreal first and made that covenant.

 

[netchaplain]

a new covenant , unlike the one at mt.horeb. uhm. what will it be? three covenants? he came to isreal first and made that covenant.

The prior Covenant for Israel is no longer extant. The final Covenants will be one for the end time Israel, which will be between God and Israel; and the one for Christians, which is not between believers and God but between God and His Son for the believers.

 

[jasonc]

The prior Covenant for Israel is no longer extant. The final Covenants will be one for the end time Israel, which will be between God and Israel; and the one for Christians, which is not between believers and God but between God and His Son for the believers.

what is the nature of the covenant? the blood or the law of moses? isreal is just a blessed land, nothing more nothing less. even the jews say that. if was to deny Christ and to become Chassidic, I would never have to move to isreal so long as I do torah the moshiac will see me in the grave and raise me and bring me to the land of promise in the messianic era. all jews that ever lived will live in the messianic era then will at the end of the era , be with the Heshem and in heavenly isreal. some sages teach a variation of that but that isn't common these days.

 

[Malachi]

Prophecy concerning unsaved Israel in the end times is quite obscure, and the best advice I can suggest concerning it is to present it as speculation--when related to God's method's and chronology concerning them.

Brother Bob,
While Christians today may not be able to completely and precisely grasp God's dealings with Israel after the Rapture of the Church, a great portion of OT prophecy is devoted to this matter, and there is much which can be clearly grasped and understood. But too many preachers, and too many Christians, have simply neglected to study those portions of Scripture, even though they are vital for understanding the whole counsel of God.

Because it is so, it is in the New Testament that Paul devotes three chapters in Romans (9,10,11) to this issue. That is a significant portion of the NT. Also, we should never forget that Christendom had dismissed Israel in the past, and equated the Church with Israel (Replacement Theology).

Furthermore "Christians" persecuted Jews for centuries, and Hitler thought he had "the Final Solution". Today the nation of Israel is hated throughout the Muslim world, throughout Europe, and even by the present government of the USA. That is probably why people have no real understanding of this matter. Most would love to dismiss Israel as irrelevant.

However, all we have to do is read the Abrahamic Covenant carefully, and believe that God will do exactly as He promised Abraham (as well as Isaac, Jacob, Judah and David), and remember that Yeshua ha Mashiach is King of Israel eternally -- "a Light to lighten the Gentiles and the Glory of thy people Israel" (Lk 2:32).

(This writer is a Gentile who has diligently studied OT prophecies).

 

[jasonc]

ok if one takes that literally then we have a saved isreal, that does what the church is doing. yet the goyim aren't Hebrews and wont be under the torah. I e male circumcision, the women cant teach the bible at all. all levites are males. slavery? lawful contigent with a seventh year release and also volunteer indefinite servitude. polygamy, not banned but not allowed for the King.

 

[netchaplain]

what is the nature of the covenant? .

Very significant that you've pointed out the issue concerning the nature (or source) of the final two New Covenants. One being that of which is presently to, but not with the saints (because it's with the Father and Son) is the Blood covenant of the Lord Jesus for the Body (pre-millennial Jewish and Gentiles believers); and the other (Jer 31:31) with Jews only, after seeing Christ (different blessings--"blessed are they"--John 20:29).

These two, and all other prior Covenants (hence the sacrificial shadow-types in the prior dispensation) are results of the substance of Christ's propitiation, which is "in heaven a better and an enduring substance" (Heb 10:34).

 

[jasonc]

Very significant that you've pointed out the issue concerning the nature (or source) of the final two New Covenants. One being that of which is presently to, but not with the saints (because it's with the Father and Son) is the Blood covenant of the Lord Jesus for the Body (pre-millennial Jewish and Gentiles believers); and the other (Jer 31:31) with Jews only, after seeing Christ (different blessings--"blessed are they"--John 20:29).

These two, and all other prior Covenants (hence the sacrificial shadow-types in the prior dispensation) are results of the substance of Christ's propitiation, which is "in heaven a better and an enduring substance" (Heb 10:34).

where is that? the torah is a shadow of He who died. do you do any of the feasts? I have tried to do more then just channukah, kinda hard at the home. start with peshac and see what that really points to, then do sukhot, see whom that is in that(God dwelling with man). isreal in her torah is pointing the cross. I need never go to isreal to do this let alone see it.

God declared me to be a jew. even though I already knew it. It was told to go to john by many a pastors, God said read from genesis first then go to the new testament. it is my roots.i will watch a long video on this subject and post when I get the chance after digesting the stuff from a preterist perspective.

meanwhile please read Ezekiel 40 and the part there where the prophet is told to go to the elders of isreal in captivity and tell them if they cease from their abominations then I shall return them to their lands. I take that literally.

 

[Malachi]

i will watch a long video on this subject and post when I get the chance after digesting the stuff from a preterist perspective.

Jason,

The preterist perspective dismisses the redemption and restoration of the kingdom of Israel for the Millenium and beyond. So it will do you little or no good to look at the "preterist perspective" in this regard.

The first step for you will be to abandon Amillenialism and then go from there. The next step will be to study Bible prophecy from the futurist perspective and see how Israel fits into God's plan. It is never easy to give up false ideas, but it is necessary in order to arrive at the truth.

 

[netchaplain]

All from among Israel who continued in disobedience within the prior dispensation did not enter God's "rest" (Heb 3:18, 19), but ended in hell, i.e. rich man (Luke 16:22), same for the unbelieving Gentiles (remaining world). This excludes believers such as Abraham and others who were, "carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom" (paradise--heaven).


Those from among Israel and the Gentiles, who believe in Christ in the present dispensation, will be the Body of Christ. The primary subject in much confusion concerns those from among Israel who will be the last surviving generation of Israel. These are the ones concerning whom God said, "I will put My Spirit within you" (Eze 36:27), which is what He presently does for all believers (Phil 2:13). It’s my speculation those within this group will be separate in a position and authority than those of the Body, and I believe this is the intention of Romans 11:26, e.g. all among the last surviving Isrealites will be saved.


It’s also my speculation is that the Body will be eternally ruling (Mat 19:28; Luke 22:30) with Christ over these people (last of the Isrealites) who've inherited the new earth.

 

[Malachi]

netchaplain,
You have arrived at a proper understanding of the difference betwen the Church and Israel. They are not identical, and God has a separate plan for each entity for all eternity. It is now up to every believer to search out the Scriptures for themselves.