Israel is not a Nation ???

[walter]

There are twelve tribes of Israel; ten are scattered. The two remaining are called the Jews and are made up of the Tribe of Benjamin and Judah. No way is the nation of Israel; Israel.

So if the scattered tribes aren't physically present they don't belong to the nation? Nations transcend physical boundaries.

 

[Benoni]

As I said earlier the nation of Israel today, the one that was established in 1948 are the tribe of Judah (4) and Benjamin (12) known as the Jews; they are not Israel but two tribes. There were twelve tribes, the Bible had Benjamin and Joseph (11) born by Rachel the chosen bride, then their ten half brothers born by maid servants and their names were, Rueben(1), Simeon (2), Levi(3), Judah(4), Dan(5), Naphtali(6), Gad(7), Asher(8), Issachar(9) and Zebulun(10), this can be found in Genesis 29.


To give a relevant example, what did Jesus actually say was the only reason that he first came ? :-

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

This then is the means by which Jesus intends to save all sinners, but most who cal themselves 'Christian' do not even know he said this, let alone knowing who the House of Israel are or that the new covenant of grace is ONLY with those whose fathers broke the old covenant, with the descendants of the House of Israel and the House of Judah ...

Do you see how far religion has strayed , it no longer seeks out the House of Israel that the disciples of Jesus were commanded to go and find, scattered amongst the gentiles :-

Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the House of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the House of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the House of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

There are twelve tribes of Israel; ten are scattered. The two remaining are called the Jews and are made up of the Tribe of Benjamin and Judah. No way is the nation of Israel; Israel.

So if the scattered tribes aren't physically present they don't belong to the nation? Nations transcend physical boundaries.

 

[parousia70]

I never said that preterists deny the right to exist, my understanding was that your view denied it being a nation.

Then your understand is plainly wrong.

Of course Todays Israel is a nation. Duh.

However, todays NATION of Israel is a SECULAR DEMOCRACY.
Did you get that NBF???
Did ya?
It is a SECULAR DEMOCRACY.
I'll say it again in case you didn't see.
SECULAR DEMOCRACY.

Do I need to point that out for you again?
it is a SECULAR DEMOCRACY.
SECULAR DEMOCRACY.
SECULAR DEMOCRACY

it is NOT a HEBREW Theocracy nor does it have ANY VERIFIABLE RELATIONSHIP to the pre desolation HEBREW THEOCRACY that it has co-opted the name of.

Todays NATION of Israel made up of MANY DIFFERENT Ethncities AND RELIGIOUS AFFILIATIONS, all of which, politically have the right to call themselves ISRAELIS.

They are, however (Christian Citizens of Israel aside) a people OUTSIDE of any covenant relationship with God.

It is NOT The Pre desolation Hebrew Theocracy, nor does it bear any resemblence to it.

How you determine a multi ethnic SECULAR democracy that REJECTS CHRIST should be considered the HEIRS to the promise of Abraham you have yet to explain, despite my multiple urgings that you do so.

Do you agree with what parousia said about it being fraudulent claim:

"Parousa - Todays Israel is a multi ethnic secular democracy that has ZERO connection to the pre desolation Hebrew nation. Religiously or genetically. They have made a fraudulent claim to the Name "Israel" as there is NO Israel apart from Christ. Jesus Christ IS Israel"

Absolutely, for the very myriad of reasons i specified above, not the least of which is the fact that Todays Israel is a SECULAR DEMOCRACY

(Did I mention that it is a SECULAR DEMOCRACY?)

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by parousia

"Todays Israel is a multi ethnic secular democracy that has ZERO connection to the pre desolation Hebrew nation. Religiously or genetically. They have made a fraudulent claim to the Name "Israel" as there is NO Isreal apart from Christ. Jesus Christ IS Israel"

"How you determine a multi ethnic SECULAR democracy that REJECTS CHRIST should be considered the HEIRS to the promise of Abraham you have yet to explain, despite my multiple urgings that you do so."

It's ironic that the only one I agree with happens to be a full-preterist :D, but parousia is correct.

God redefined Israel - the "heirs of Abraham":

"If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed [Greek sperma], and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:29)

"It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, 'It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.' In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring." (Romans 9:6-8)

" 'Abraham is our father,' they answered. 'If you were Abraham's children,' said Jesus, 'then you would do the things Abraham did. As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. . . . You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. . . .’ " (John 8:39-44)

God has terminated the Old Covenant, with its promises and prophecies, and has declared it null and void because there is a New Covenant, and a new group of trustees; those who reflect the faith of Abraham. If we belong to Christ, God considers us children and heirs of Abraham (i.e. Israel), and HEIRS to the promise.

 

[Cornelius]

Originally posted by parousia

"Todays Israel is a multi ethnic secular democracy that has ZERO connection to the pre desolation Hebrew nation. Religiously or genetically. They have made a fraudulent claim to the Name "Israel" as there is NO Isreal apart from Christ. Jesus Christ IS Israel"

"How you determine a multi ethnic SECULAR democracy that REJECTS CHRIST should be considered the HEIRS to the promise of Abraham you have yet to explain, despite my multiple urgings that you do so."

It's ironic that the only one I agree with happens to be a full-preterist :D, but parousia is correct.

God redefined Israel - the "heirs of Abraham":

I also agree.

People think that this scripture is referring to some people who claimed to be Jews, but in fact this scripture is talking about the bloodline Jews calling themselves Jews. God took "Israel" away from physical Israel and gave it to all children of Abraham. Those who live by and through faith.

Rev 2:9 I know thy tribulation, and thy poverty (but thou art rich), and the blasphemy of them that say they are Jews, and they art not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

God calls it blasphemy to call a Jew a Jew because of a bloodline. He calls Jews, Jews who are part of the New Covenant in Christ.

 

[Cornelius]

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

This scripture is so very clear about who God calls a "Jew". All Christians are "Jews". We are what the Bible calls: "ALL Israel"

Rom 9:6 .......... For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel: (That means what it says: not everybody that is a bloodline Jew is of Israel, only those who have repented and are now in Christ are Israel)

Rom 9:8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed. (Not the children of the flesh, means bloodline Jews)

But the children of the promise (Christians) are the the seed of Abraham.

Its so clear, I do not know why we are resisting this truth. Nobody can get saved outside of Jesus Christ, there is no Covenant anymore with nobody outside of Christ. No Jew will make it into eternal life on the Old Covenant anymore.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

 

[Adullam]

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

This scripture is so very clear about who God calls a "Jew". All Christians are "Jews". We are what the Bible calls: "ALL Israel"

Rom 9:6 .......... For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel: (That means what it says: not everybody that is a bloodline Jew is of Israel, only those who have repented and are now in Christ are Israel)

Rom 9:8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed. (Not the children of the flesh, means bloodline Jews)

But the children of the promise (Christians) are the the seed of Abraham.

Its so clear, I do not know why we are resisting this truth. Nobody can get saved outside of Jesus Christ, there is no Covenant anymore with nobody outside of Christ. No Jew will make it into eternal life on the Old Covenant anymore.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Yeppers! :yes

 

[nonbelieverforums]

This scripture is so very clear about who God calls a "Jew". All Christians are "Jews". We are what the Bible calls: "ALL Israel"

May I see the scripture backing this comment please.

 

[Drew]

It's ironic that the only one I agree with happens to be a full-preterist :D, but parousia is correct.

God redefined Israel - the "heirs of Abraham":

"If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed [Greek sperma], and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:29)

"It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, 'It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.' In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring." (Romans 9:6-8)

" 'Abraham is our father,' they answered. 'If you were Abraham's children,' said Jesus, 'then you would do the things Abraham did. As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. . . . You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. . . .’ " (John 8:39-44)

God has terminated the Old Covenant, with its promises and prophecies, and has declared it null and void because there is a New Covenant, and a new group of trustees; those who reflect the faith of Abraham. If we belong to Christ, God considers us children and heirs of Abraham (i.e. Israel), and HEIRS to the promise.

I entirely agree with both your conclusion and with the texts you provide to support it. Paul has two Israels in his mind - the nation of Israel and the "true" Israel - the children of the promise. Any person who believes that Jesus is lord is "true" Israelite whether Jew or Gentile.

And while a nation called Israel came into existence in 1948, this was not the fulfillment of any Biblical prophecies – God has already fulfilled any and all promises made to “national†Israel – the twelve tribes from the Old Testament.

 

[Drew]

Luke 21 is a parallel chapter to Matthew 24. Notice Luke's account of Christ's long prophecy that answered the disciples' questions: "Teacher, . . . when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?" (Luke 21:7).

In response, Jesus showed that Jerusalem would be the central focus of the political and military upheavals that would immediately precede His return: "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near . . . For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled" (verses 20-22).

I think that whoever wrote this material has misunderstood what is really being asserted in Luke 21.

This material does not describe events in the future, but rather the judgement that was carried out against Israel in 70 AD at the hands of the Romans. There are many arguments that could be given for this. But one is rather clear. Jesus says this to his followers:

I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

So the Luke 21 material has no connection to events in the 20th century.

Anyone living a century ago would have found these words nearly impossible to comprehend

I disagree - the people would understand Jesus as speaking of a judgement that will come soon in the form of Romans soldiers.

 

[Benoni]

If anything the nation of Israel as we know (Jews) it is nothing but a side track/deception for literal Christians who follow the letter of the Word.

It's ironic that the only one I agree with happens to be a full-preterist :D, but parousia is correct.

God redefined Israel - the "heirs of Abraham":

"If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed [Greek sperma], and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:29)

"It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, 'It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.' In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring." (Romans 9:6-8)

" 'Abraham is our father,' they answered. 'If you were Abraham's children,' said Jesus, 'then you would do the things Abraham did. As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. . . . You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. . . .’ " (John 8:39-44)

God has terminated the Old Covenant, with its promises and prophecies, and has declared it null and void because there is a New Covenant, and a new group of trustees; those who reflect the faith of Abraham. If we belong to Christ, God considers us children and heirs of Abraham (i.e. Israel), and HEIRS to the promise.

I entirely agree with both your conclusion and with the texts you provide to support it. Paul has two Israels in his mind - the nation of Israel and the "true" Israel - the children of the promise. Any person who believes that Jesus is lord is "true" Israelite whether Jew or Gentile.

And while a nation called Israel came into existence in 1948, this was not the fulfillment of any Biblical prophecies – God has already fulfilled any and all promises made to “national†Israel – the twelve tribes from the Old Testament.

 

[parousia70]

It's ironic that the only one I agree with happens to be a full-preterist :D, but parousia is correct.

Ahhh.. the blessing of common ground!
Land of milk and honey indeed!

I'm still confused as to what views you think I hold that are exclusive to full preterism though.

You have called me a FP a number of times OS, but I can't think of any view I have espoused here that is exclusive to the Full Preterst position. Can you?

Indeed, all Christians are preterist, we only vary by degree, and I subscribe to an admittedly HIGH degree, but to call me a FP??

Really?

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by parousia70
You have called me a FP a number of times OS, but I can't think of any view I have espoused here that is exclusive to the Full Preterst position. Can you?

Perhaps I am mistaken and I'm unfairly generalizing. I was under the "assumption" that if one believes all eschatological prophecy was fulfilled (at least the parousia and tribulation) in 70 AD, that was considered "full-preterism". If I jumped the gun regarding the technicalities, I apologize.

 

[Cornelius]

This scripture is so very clear about who God calls a "Jew". All Christians are "Jews". We are what the Bible calls: "ALL Israel"

May I see the scripture backing this comment please.

With pleasure Actually you have to look at more than one scripture together:

Rom 9:6 ....... For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel: (That is clue one: ALL Israel, is not all "of Israel)

You and I and any Jew today and in the past were all saved in the same manner :Through Jesus Christ. Nothing will change , the method stays the same. Spiritual Israel or "All Israel" will be saved all in the same manner: Through Jesus Christ, or not at all: Rom 11:26 and so all Israel shall be saved:

All Israel includes only believers, be they Gentile of Jew, because today being a Jew on the outside does not matter: Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh: Yes, only if you have been circumcised in your heart are you now a Jew; Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

[Osgiliath]

NBF, this subject is at the heart of the very basics of Christianity.....being "born again" - [born from above -Greek ΑÎÂΩΘΕÎÂ] . Jesus differentiates two kinds of births - birth "of the flesh" (the birth Nicodemus had in mind), and those who experience the second birth - who are "born of the Spirit":

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." (John 3:5-8)

To become naturalized as a citizen of the kingdom of God (i.e. - redefined Israel - the "heirs of Abraham"), Jesus pointed out that a person needs to renounce his carnal life (being born of water), and must be born of the Spirit. This process only happens through the power of the Holy Spirit. (i.e. one must receive the gift of a new nature (attitude, outlook) from the Spirit of God).

Don't forget; Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus who believed the Kingdom of God was granted on the basis of complete conformity to the law; that God transferred the guilt, that comes with the violation of law, by animal sacrifices; and that sacrificial ceremonies produced forgiveness. Nicodemus thought that the Kingdom of God was limited to those people who were of Israel. But, Jesus said:

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:14,15)

Many Israelites were saved from death by looking at the bronze serpent that Moses put on a pole (Numbers 21:4-9), and all people who live in the world have been bitten by that ancient serpent, the devil, and the only way people can be saved from death is by looking to the One who will be lifted up on a pole.

According to Nicodemus (Jewish law), a Gentile could only become a Jew through a ritual that consisted of a long and tedious indoctrination by Jewish priests. The Gentile renounced his former citizenship and pledged allegiance to Israel and the God of Israel. After the council's approval, the candidate was "baptized" into the nation of Israel. His past was believed to be washed away. Eight days later, the ritual of circumcision was administered to males. Then, the convert’s Jewish name and date of rebirth was entered on the rolls of Israel. The convert was then regarded a descendent of Abraham with all the rights of citizenship. So in John 3, there was a sharp difference between the kingdom of Israel (aka God’s kingdom) that Nicodemus was familiar with - and the Kingdom that Jesus spoke of (i.e. - the New Covenant). So if we belong to Christ (born again - Gk. ΑÎÂΩΘΕÎÂ), God considers us children and heirs of Abraham (i.e. Israel), and HEIRS to the promise.

"If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed [Greek sperma], and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:29)

And as Cornelius quoted:

"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh: Yes, only if you have been circumcised in your heart are you now a Jew; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." (Romans 2:28,29)

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by parousia70
You have called me a FP a number of times OS, but I can't think of any view I have espoused here that is exclusive to the Full Preterst position. Can you?

Perhaps I am mistaken and I'm unfairly generalizing. I was under the "assumption" that if one believes all eschatological prophecy was fulfilled (at least the parousia and tribulation) in 70 AD, that was considered "full-preterism". If I jumped the gun regarding the technicalities, I apologize.

No apology necessry.
Full preterists wont have me since i hold the possibility of a future to us consummation.

Certainly, I believe that all Biblical eschatology found its fulfillment @ 70AD, but since I hold the possibility of an extra biblical consummation of the cosmos, I am not accepted as a "full preterist" by those classic FP's who reject any such notion.

Interestingly, most, if not all of what Full preterists believe the Bible teaches are beliefs held by partial prets as well.... it's just that the FP's don't reach the same logical conclusions that the PP's do.

While I affirm everything Biblical that the full preterist affirms, I can't infallibly say it's the whole story.
So, while I agree with the full preterist on all of Biblical eschatology's 1st cenntury consummation, I have no biblical instruction to eliminate the possibility of a future to us consumation not foretold in scripture.

Without doubt, whatever changes God has in store for the cosmos in our future, the time and details have not been revealed to men. (Deut 29:29)

 

[parousia70]

So NBF,,, you're awful quiet in this thread you started....

I didn't think you'd be running away with your tail between your legs until Jan 1, 2013 at the earliest.

Funny how most folks here, regardless of their position on futurism vs. preterism, come down on the side of Todays Israel being fraudulent (covenantally speaking).

 

[parousia70]

God has terminated the Old Covenant.

interesting.

When did this happen?

 

[Osgiliath]

Origianlly posted by parousia70

[quote:3kbytxc1]Osgiliath wrote:

God has terminated the Old Covenant.

interesting.

When did this happen?[/quote:3kbytxc1]

I guess that phrase could be taken the wrong way when it is isolated; and I would not want anyone to think I meant the "Old Testament" was in any way terminated, so I'll rephrase. As far as "when"? The covenant between God and the biological descendants of Abraham ended at the Cross (Genesis 15:18; Exodus 24:1-8; Ephesians 2; Colossians 2:13-17). The death of Jesus brought an end to an exclusive covenant that existed between God and the nation of ancient Israel. That covenant was based on the shedding of blood and it was temporary (shadows); and is why it was called a "blood covenant" (Zechariah 9:11), "the old covenant" (2 Corinthians 3:14), "the first covenant" (Hebrews 9:1), or "the law of Moses" (Luke 2:22).

Parousia, I hope by now :D you didn't think I was implying that since the Mosaic covenant included laws such as the Ten Commandments, they were also abolished with the establishment of the New Covenant (I realize some Christians believe that). I meant that under the current "New Covenant" that Jesus established, God has not imposed the ceremonial rules and obligations (i.e. animal sacrifices, etc.) of the Levitical covenant. Jesus’ death "terminated" the first blood covenant with ancient Israel and initiated the second blood covenant with all who would believe in Him. And (in the context of the thread) God turned to "whosoever will" as the new trustees (becoming the new Israel and Heirs to the promise); composed of believers in Christ from every tribe, language and nation who live by faith in Jesus (Romans 2:28,29; 9:8; James 1:1; 2:1; Galatians 3:28; Revelation 7:9).

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by parousia70
Funny how most folks here, regardless of their position on futurism vs. preterism, come down on the side of Todays Israel being fraudulent (covenantally speaking).

This may be a politically incorrect question to ask :o, but I'm curious. Do you believe this "fraud" is intentional on the part of Today's Israel, or based on ignorance (or a little of both)? I personally don't know myself, just interested to see what others think.