ISRAEL'S REBIRTH IN 1948 FORETOLD BY EZEKIEL

[Stormcrow]

Isn't there a subforum for Preterists? This thread wasn't started by a Preterist.

Responding to this kind of nonsense should be every believer's responsibility.

 

[AKJVReader]

And also Israel's 1948 prophecy is here too:

Jeremiah 30:
1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2 Thus speaketh the LORD God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book.
3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.

 

[Sinthesis]

Please read Ezra & Nehemiah.
Jeremiah 30:1-3 was necessarily fulfilled prior to the birth of Christ.

 

[AKJVReader]

Well history repeats itself.

Jersualem was destroyed in 70AD by the Romans. Couldn't Jerusalem or Israel be occupied by a foreign army again after 70AD? according to the Bible.

 

[tim-from-pa]

For the record, I always talked about a "man made" and "supernatural" regathering. I can somewhat agree with Jason about the modern day of Israel not being foretold if by that one wants to use Ezekiel 37 and Jeremiah 30 as a basis. Obviously, nothing that glorious ever happened yet.

Also, historically speaking the lost 10 tribes never, ever returned to the land of Israel after the Assyrian captivity so nothing just before Jesus' time, nothing during or after his time, nor nothing yet has fulfilled this prophecy of a mass return. That's just a historical fact that no serious historian nor anyone who knows what they are talking about will deny.

However, you do have people claiming to be from those other tribes when the Jews asked the question "who is the Jew"? as a criteria who they would consider as a returned exile.

That all being said, there has to be a "man-made" or man-inspired return to fulfill what that Jews call "the birth pangs of the Messiah" (we call it the tribulation) to which the "Messiah" that will return (as Paul stated) will actually seat himself in the temple and claim to be God (and is actually the beast). Nothing like this has happened yet. So it will be a false Messiah. To do this presupposes there is a temple, presupposes that the Jews have to be in the land of Israel otherwise how could they flee? and so on and so forth. So by virtue of future events, that implies a regathering. The fig tree parable is another one used to show that the time of the end is nigh.

Regarding the supernatural regathering, the passage in Ezekiel I believe is yet future as the two houses never truly rejoined yet (the two sticks). However, since there WILL BE a time for a regathering, and since prophecy repeats itself, it lays the groundwork for justification of the Jews making it back to Israel even now. This will be a gathering "of the elect" from the "four corners" as Isaiah says, and as Jesus quoted in Matthew regarding the agels gathering his "elect". In this case, it's the elect of race, and not the elect of grace, otherwise called Christians. There are two elects. The former is not necessarily spiritually saved, but was bestowed both the promises of physical and spiritual blessings because of Abraham's faith (not their faith but as a promise to reward Abraham). But that's basic covenantal theology 101 that only those who miss the entire point of the bible don't understand. The point I'm making is that they physical race is still remembered as God is going to give give many of them a chance at salvation later so that they not only have earthly inheritance as promised, but spiritual as well. The bible makes that emphatically clear and redundant.

The feasts of the Lord explain the work of God and man's redemption. Only some (the firstfruits) are saved now. Many more in the millennium. That's one of the sole purposes for Christ to regather Israel, and then to rule with his saints---- for them to be like God, to rule and to teach the people the way of the Lord. The church now are members in training to lead with Christ, not the entire members of his whole Kingdom! :yes

 

[reba]

Israel is about 8,000 square miles.

There are about 28,000,000 square feet in a square mile

There are about 13,000,000 + Jewish folks in the world.

That leaves about 2 square feet per person.

Hope no one is real fat!

;)

 

[tim-from-pa]

Israel is about 8,000 square miles.

There are about 28,000,000 square feet in a square mile

There are about 13,000,000 + Jewish folks in the world.

That leaves about 2 square feet per person.

Hope no one is real fat!

;)

Cute, but your math needs a tad working on.

 

[Hitch]

The idiocy required to force Christ into a Millennial temple presiding over bloody sacrifices is as useful as an all you can eat special at a lumberyard

 

[reba]

Cute, but your math needs a tad working on.

There are 27,878,400 square feet in a square mile.

times 8000 = 224,000,000 small step i left out

224,000,000. divided by 13,000,000 = 17,000. square feet per person.


Hoping this is correct that would be a 100 X 170 lot per person. Bit more room then 2 sq ft.


Sheesh i did that math a halve dozen times I just hate when i do that
:help

 

[Sinthesis]

There are 27,878,400 square feet in a square mile.

times 8000 = 224,000,000 small step i left out

224,000,000. divided by 13,000,000 = 17,000. square feet per person.


Hoping this is correct that would be a 100 X 170 lot per person. Bit more room then 2 sq ft.


Sheesh i did that math a halve dozen times I just hate when i do that
:help

It's OK, you're still not as in error as tim-from-pa.

 

[n2thelight]

Please read Ezra & Nehemiah.
Jeremiah 30:1-3 was necessarily fulfilled prior to the birth of Christ.

Jeremiah 30:3 "For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it."


These are two separate nation, the house or nation of Israel, and the house or nation of Judah. It was 722 B.C. when the ten tribes of the house or nation of Israel were scattered and migrated to the places where they now exist as a nation, and they have never returned.

The other house or nation of Judah has in part returned to reestablish their tiny nation of Israel, but their protection comes from their brothers, of the house of Israel, the Christian nations of today. God tells us how we shall identify the house of Israel in the latter days in Hosea 1:10; "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and It shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, `Ye are not my people,' there it shall be said unto them, `Ye are the sons of the living God.' "

God's Word is true, and the House of Israel has become that numerous down through the years. They have been scattered to where this house now covers most Europe, and the Americas, as well as many other areas.These people do not know their identity

Jesus Christ came out of the tomb, and defeated death; He is the "living God", and those that are said to be of Jesus Christ are called Christians. The Christian nations are the sons of the living God. Israel, which is the Christian nations will return to the land that God gave to their forefathers, and the two sticks of Israel and Judah will be joined.

 

[Sinthesis]

Jeremiah 30:3 "For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it."


These are two separate nation, the house or nation of Israel, and the house or nation of Judah. It was 722 B.C. when the ten tribes of the house or nation of Israel were scattered and migrated to the places where they now exist as a nation, and they have never returned.

The other house or nation of Judah has in part returned to reestablish their tiny nation of Israel, but their protection comes from their brothers, of the house of Israel, the Christian nations of today. God tells us how we shall identify the house of Israel in the latter days in Hosea 1:10; "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and It shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, `Ye are not my people,' there it shall be said unto them, `Ye are the sons of the living God.' "

So how do you identify Israel? Numbers? Location? Lots of Chinese and Muslims. There are even Chinese Muslims.:nod

Rev 20:8 - And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.​

God's Word is true, and the House of Israel has become that numerous down through the years. They have been scattered to where this house now covers most Europe, and the Americas, as well as many other areas.These people do not know their identity

Jesus Christ came out of the tomb, and defeated death; He is the "living God", and those that are said to be of Jesus Christ are called Christians. The Christian nations are the sons of the living God. Israel, which is the Christian nations will return to the land that God gave to their forefathers, and the two sticks of Israel and Judah will be joined.

Edict of Cyrus

 

[reba]

You will not post any messages; links, images or photos that promote a religion or belief other than Biblical and historical Christianity (atheism is considered a "belief" for the purposes of this rule). Discussing these doctrines are fine, as long as the beliefs are not actively promoted. This includes Universal Reconciliation, Universal Salvation, Serpent seed, Dual Seed or Two-Seedline doctrine which are only allowed in the 1 on 1 Debate Forum. This is a Christian Forum as the name suggests.

 

[tim-from-pa]

You are right n2thelight about the house of Israel being separated today. This solid undeniable fact stated by historians and theologians alike puts dampers on any doctrine that claims Israel as a whole came together already. That's why they are called "the lost ten tribes of Israel" even to this day.

As a matter of fact, a careful rendition of Zechariah regarding the story of the staffs beauty and the bands shows that the separation was still there yet after Christ was crucified (i.e. after the 30 pieces of silver prophecy) and predates Ezekiel 37. Since the only major thing that occurred after Christ's crucifixion was the destruction of the temple and then dispersion again, we certainly cannot say that the gathering of all of Israel happened before, during or just after Christ. Thus the likes of Ezekiel 37 had to be future since the separation of the two houses still existed in Christ's time and after his time.

Simple, straightforward historical fact.

 

[Sinthesis]

You are right n2thelight about the house of Israel being separated today. This solid undeniable fact stated by historians and theologians alike puts dampers on any doctrine that claims Israel as a whole came together already. That's why they are called "the lost ten tribes of Israel" even to this day.

Except that one can find a historian or theologian who will agree with about anything. Simply repeating the errors of those you follow doesn't lend any more viability to their errant ideas. They are called "the lost ten tribes of Israel" today because their royal house disappeared into history before the people of God were reunited by the Edict of Cyrus, under Judah's surviving Davidic royal line, as 'The Jews'. This work of Ezra, Nehamiah, Zerubbabel, Joshua (the high priest) etc. is what Ezekiel 37 and the first few chapters of Zechariah is about.

As a matter of fact, a careful rendition of Zechariah regarding the story of the staffs beauty and the bands shows that the separation was still there yet after Christ was crucified (i.e. after the 30 pieces of silver prophecy) and predates Ezekiel 37. Since the only major thing that occurred after Christ's crucifixion was the destruction of the temple and then dispersion again, we certainly cannot say that the gathering of all of Israel happened before, during or just after Christ. Thus the likes of Ezekiel 37 had to be future since the separation of the two houses still existed in Christ's time and after his time.

You should be more careful as you render, for the staffs are not the sticks.
The joined sticks (h6086 עץ `ets) of the resurected and reunited peoples of Israel and Judah as 'The Jews', together represent the staff (h4731 מקל maqqel) "Band" as they symbolized the bondage to the Law under the old covenant. The staff "Beauty" is Christ Jesus as He symbolizes the beauty of the covenant of Grace rejected by some while accepted by others.

Zec 11:10 - And I took my staff, [even] Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.
Zec 11:11 - And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it [was] the word of the LORD.
Zec 11:12 - And I said unto them, If ye think good, give [me] my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty [pieces] of silver.
Zec 11:13 - And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty [pieces] of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.
Zec 11:14 - Then I cut asunder mine other staff, [even] Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.​

So we have Christ as the staff "Beauty" crucified while Judah and Israel were still united as the staff "Bands". Christ's crucifixion ended the hereditary blood covenant at that generation, in favor of a new covenant communicated through the spiritual blood of Christ.
The separation of Judah and Israel is reflected today in the separation between Judaism and Christianity.

Luk 12:51 - Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:​

Simple, straightforward historical fact.

Indeed, except that as usual the facts are not what you would have them be.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Just bumping since I was the last to post 4 days ago in case n2thelight wanted to reply yet. Otherwise, I guess this thread wound down.

 

[Rant]

It is clear from reading Scripture that the nation of Israel has a special place in the mind and heart of God. Ever since Genesis 11, when he called Abram out of Ur of the Chaldees to forsake idolatry and follow the true and living; and God led him to a land that would be his own, God has had a special relationship with them. When God says in Zechariah that anyone that toucheth Israel (Jerusalem in particular) toucheth the apple of his eye, He is literally saying that touching Israel is like poking Him in the eye. That's enough to irritate anyone

 

[tim-from-pa]

It is clear from reading Scripture that the nation of Israel has a special place in the mind and heart of God. Ever since Genesis 11, when he called Abram out of Ur of the Chaldees to forsake idolatry and follow the true and living; and God led him to a land that would be his own, God has had a special relationship with them. When God says in Zechariah that anyone that toucheth Israel (Jerusalem in particular) toucheth the apple of his eye, He is literally saying that touching Israel is like poking Him in the eye. That's enough to irritate anyone

Yes, that's so true.

 

[Osgiliath]

This is not complicated *sigh*

When the New Covenant was implemented, a new group of trustees was selected who would choose to live by faith. Believe it or not; God's new trustees are also called "Israel"

"If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Galatians 3:29)

Physical descendents (biology) is irrelevant to God in this case. Faith is what is relevant to God.

"It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring." (Romans 9:6-8)

The Old Covenant with it's CONDITIONAL promises given "to Israel" was abandoned, and modern day (biological) Israel is not in the picture.

"By calling this covenant 'new,' he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:13).

The UNCONDITIONAL promises given "to Abraham" and his heirs will still be fulfilled, but Israel has been redefined to fulfill these promises: "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:29)

Because the Old and New covenants are often mixed up and chaotically and carelessly merged together, many denominations have concocted a mechanical solution (called a "pretribulation rapture") to solve their problems of mixing and merging the two covenants.

Because of this confusion, many believe that God is still obligated to fulfill His promises to the biological offspring of Abraham. They believe that God raised up Christians to temporarily fulfill the gospel commission - i.e.-Christians were appointed as trustees of the gospel commission until the times granted to the Gentiles are fulfilled (Luke 21:24). Then they reason, when the world is at the door of the Second Coming (7 years from His return), Jesus will remove "the believers" from Earth with a pretribulation rapture so that He can fulfill His promises to the biological nation of Israel - and this event will inevitably persuade 144,000 Jews to convert to Christianity and these people will then go throughout the Earth during the Great Tribulation proclaiming the gospel of Jesus.

As if that isn't messy enough; these have also so badly distorted Daniel 9 to make the rapture doctrine plausible, and the result is total confusion. These claim the 70th week is detached from the 69 weeks. They believe that a gap of almost 2,000 years must be inserted between the 69th week and the 70th week (the origin of the erroneous "7 Year Tribulation" time period - as opposed to it's actual 1,335 day duration - Daniel 12:11,12) This nonsensical "gap" between the 69th and 70th week is entirely artificial and contrived, and not supported by Scripture in even the slightest way.

All of these theories and distortions of Scripture come from one single misunderstanding: trying to mix and merge the Old and New Covenants together! This error leads them to believe Ezekiel's "revelation" is speaking of the same events spoken of in John's revelation (i.e Book of Revelation). If Israel would have followed God and fulfilled His purpose for them (a nation of priests) and in turn, received Messiah, the events in the last chapters of Ezekiel would have occurred, and there would not have been a need for a New Covenant and a New (Book of) Revelation. In fact, the New Testament would never have been written. But Israel failed in it's trusteeship of God's Truth, and God abandoned His 'conditional' covenant with the 'biological' nation of Israel:

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. Look, your house is left to you desolate." (Matthew 23:37,38)

And of course, in A.D. 70, their house (temple) was left to them desolate (and is to this day, and will not be rebuilt).

In the midst of this messy attempt to mix and match the two covenants, they have tied modern Israel's endtime role and a pretribulation rapture together and made them co-dependant doctrines that seem (on the surface) to fit so nicely together. There's just one problem: it is completely contrived and unbiblical! It's man trying to force the Bible to fit into his own theories, rather than letting the Bible speak for itself.

This confusion is completely negated when one understands a simple Biblical fact: the Old Covenant was abandoned, and there is a New Covenant! One is no more, the other IS! There is no mixing and merging. Also, all one has to do is comprehend the basis for Paul's entire mission: Under the New Covenant, there is no distinction between Jews and Gentiles!!! (Galatians 3:29 - Romans 9:6-8)

The modern nation of Israel established in 1948 is totally irrelevant. The establishment of modern Israel is no different than the recent establishment of Montenegro (2006). Neither event is prophetically significant.

In conclusion, forum member Stormcrow is correct in "Post #2" of this thread. 4 decrees were issued for the restoration of Jerusalem. Cyrus gave the 1st decree in the Friday year of 536 B.C. (Ezra 1); Darius gave the 2nd decree in the Monday Year of 519 B.C. (Ezra 6); Artexerxes gave the 3rd and 4th decrees in the Sunday Year of 457 B.C. and the Sabbath Year of 444 B.C. (Ezra 7 and Nehemiah 2). These decrees have to do with the restoration of Israel immediately following the 70 year captivity in Babylon, and have nothing at all to do with the establishment of modern Israel in 1948.

 

[Hitch]

Yup.