Issues

[JM]

The issue between the so-called 'calvinist' and 'arminian' is this: WHETHER OR NOT GOD HAS ORDAINED ALL THAT COMES TO PASS…

As a calvinists I believe that God has a plan, any event which comes to pass has been included in this plan. Nothing, therefore happens by chance or outside the plan of God. I believe this on the basis of statements like the following:

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: (Ephesians 1:11)

His working extends to small matters Proverbs 16:33, Matthew 10:29 and great matters Daniel 4:25, 35. We know that it includes sinful deeds, including the deeds of wicked men at the Cross Acts 2:23. Such working does not in any man force the hand of the creature. The making of an event certain does not make it necessary and therefore God can remain sovereign and pure, while man is responsible and sinful. God makes the wrath of man to praise Him Psalm 76:10 while still punishing man for that wrath.

If the Doctrines of Grace be true (and everyman a lier), then this perfect plan of God extends to the most important matter of all: The salvation of YOUR soul.

If the Doctrines of Grace are wrong, then you have to come up with a viable alternative which still allows God to be God, when His plans fall short and man does his own sinful will and not Gods.

j

 

[Adams son]

The issue between the so-called 'calvinist' and 'arminian' is this: WHETHER OR NOT GOD HAS ORDAINED ALL THAT COMES TO PASS…

As a calvinists I believe that God has a plan, any event which comes to pass has been included in this plan. Nothing, therefore happens by chance or outside the plan of God. I believe this on the basis of statements like the following:

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: (Ephesians 1:11)

His working extends to small matters Proverbs 16:33, Matthew 10:29 and great matters Daniel 4:25, 35. We know that it includes sinful deeds, including the deeds of wicked men at the Cross Acts 2:23. Such working does not in any man force the hand of the creature. The making of an event certain does not make it necessary and therefore God can remain sovereign and pure, while man is responsible and sinful. God makes the wrath of man to praise Him Psalm 76:10 while still punishing man for that wrath.

If the Doctrines of Grace be true (and everyman a lier), then this perfect plan of God extends to the most important matter of all: The salvation of YOUR soul.

If the Doctrines of Grace are wrong, then you have to come up with a viable alternative which still allows God to be God, when His plans fall short and man does his own sinful will and not Gods.

j

So can we conclude that before the creation of the world that God ordained the following events:

1. Osama bin laden's planes hitting the twin towers and killing thousands of people.

2. Hitler's slaughter of 6,000,000 Jews.

3. Roman Catholic priests sexually abusing young boys.

4. Fathers sexually abusing their little girls.

Did God before creation decide to ordain all this to happen?

 

[JM]

God's predestinating in election and preterition is his making the origin of holiness in an elect sinner, and the continuance (not origin) of sin in a non-elect sinner, a certainty in his plan of the universe, in distinction from a contingency outside of that plan springing from chance; and that it includes certainty only, and excludes necessity and compulsion.

The defenders of the doctrine uniformly deny this. They contend that when the divine decree relates to the action of the human will, be it holy or sinful action, there is certainty, but not compulsion.

When God predetermined from eternity not to restrain and prevent 'Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and all the people of Israel', from crucifying his beloved Son, but to leave them to their own wicked inclination and voluntary action in the case, he made this crucifixion a certainty, but not a necessity, as is evinced by the 'woe' pronounced upon them by the Son of God. Luke 22: 22. Men with hearts and dispositions full of hatred toward the Saviour of the world, if left to themselves are infallibly certain to cry, 'Crucify him; crucify him'. 19:6-15.

God created a world knowing that most of it would reject Him and His offer, but He still created it. All those who do not believe are doomed. He's the same God that killed His son Jesus Christ on the Cross so we may live. He's the same God that killed hundreds of thousands of people in the O.T., including children (the first born in the Land of Egypt). Yes, Son, God is the same yesterday, today and forever! Our sinful minds cannot understand 'why' but we can know that all things work out in the end....it's His will be done, not mine.

Jason

 

[Adams son]

The issue between the so-called 'calvinist' and 'arminian' is this: WHETHER OR NOT GOD HAS ORDAINED ALL THAT COMES TO PASS…

As a calvinists I believe that God has a plan, any event which comes to pass has been included in this plan. Nothing, therefore happens by chance or outside the plan of God. I believe this on the basis of statements like the following:

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: (Ephesians 1:11)

His working extends to small matters Proverbs 16:33, Matthew 10:29 and great matters Daniel 4:25, 35. We know that it includes sinful deeds, including the deeds of wicked men at the Cross Acts 2:23. Such working does not in any man force the hand of the creature. The making of an event certain does not make it necessary and therefore God can remain sovereign and pure, while man is responsible and sinful. God makes the wrath of man to praise Him Psalm 76:10 while still punishing man for that wrath.

If the Doctrines of Grace be true (and everyman a lier), then this perfect plan of God extends to the most important matter of all: The salvation of YOUR soul.

If the Doctrines of Grace are wrong, then you have to come up with a viable alternative which still allows God to be God, when His plans fall short and man does his own sinful will and not Gods.

j

So can we conclude that before the creation of the world that God ordained the following events:

1. Osama bin laden's planes hitting the twin towers and killing thousands of people.

2. Hitler's slaughter of 6,000,000 Jews.

3. Roman Catholic priests sexually abusing young boys.

4. Fathers sexually abusing their little girls.

Did God before creation decide to ordain all this to happen?

Right?

 

[JM]

Do you believe the Biblical account of God killing all the first born of Egypt found in Exodus?

Listen Son, you didn't read the two posts explaining the doctrine, why should I respond to your emotional rhetoric any more? It's clear the ultimate authority in the world for you is you, not the Bible. I've spent too much time defining and defending doctrines you won't even look at.

You're so sure you know what the Doctrines of Grace are, you won't even read the posts...you're way off...Son.

 

[Adams son]

Do you believe the Biblical account of God killing all the first born of Egypt found in Exodus?

Listen Son, you didn't read the two posts explaining the doctrine, why should I respond to your emotional rhetoric any more? It's clear the ultimate authority in the world for you is you, not the Bible. I've spent too much time defining and defending doctrines you won't even look at.

You're so sure you know what the Doctrines of Grace are, you won't even read the posts...you're way off...Son.

You do the same thing Calvinists do every time.... "oh oh you just don't understand our doctrines" LOL. It is not surprising. Same ole story.

I find it amazing that anyone can be so far gone that they actually believe that God ordained that Priests would sexually abuse little boys. But hey it is all right there in black and white in the Westminster Confession.

Sad man. It only shows the madness to which Calvinists will stoop.

Here are your words:

"As a calvinists I believe that God has a plan, any event which comes to pass has been included in this plan. Nothing, therefore happens by chance or outside the plan of God."

..... including the extermination of 6,000,000 Jews and every other perverted thing that ever happens. God ordained it all eh?

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

Adams son your examples are examples of Hyper Calvinism.... there is a difference between Calvinism and Hyper Calvinism. Now if you know so much about Calvinism and think people don't then please feel free to define it and provide sources.

Oh and watch it you could be a little nicer in your responses. If any of us are in error in our theology/or beliefs try to be more Christ-like in rebuking us. Thank you.

 

[Adams son]

Adams son your examples are examples of Hyper Calvinism.... there is a difference between Calvinism and Hyper Calvinism. Now if you know so much about Calvinism and think people don't then please feel free to define it and provide sources.

Oh and watch it you could be a little nicer in your responses. If any of us are in error in our theology/or beliefs try to be more Christ-like in rebuking us. Thank you.

It has nothing to with differences in Calvinism. It is BASIC Calvinism which we are discussing here common to all strains of Calvinism.

Please, if you don't know what you are talking about don't try to pretend that you do.

 

[KnarfKS]

Actually Nocturnal_Principal_X was right with what he said about your examples being hypercalvinism.

I don't want to claim any name of any person besides Christ, but I do agree with calvinistic doctrines on many ideas. I have studied the doctrine.

And once again, please quit bashing people and stick to the topic. Please be objective and logical in your arguments. Arguements and disagreements are fine, demeaning one another in pride is not.

"As a calvinists I believe that God has a plan, any event which comes to pass has been included in this plan. Nothing, therefore happens by chance or outside the plan of God."

This is actually hypercalvinism, I agree. I don't agree with this statement. Not all things are planned by God (not that He couldn't). The major eternity changing things are handled by God. I'm a child of God, that is by God's will. Whether I wear a blue shirt or gray shirt, God doesn't care.

As for your examples

God allows evil to happen, He uses it in His plan to accomplish His will. God does not cause evil. It is like adam and eve in the garden, he could have stopped them, but to God's greater glory He allowed them to eat of the fruit that separated them from Him. God is the same today, yesterday and in the future.

A hard concept to grasp, but it is the truth.

 

[JM]

"As a calvinists I believe that God has a plan, any event which comes to pass has been included in this plan. Nothing, therefore happens by chance or outside the plan of God."

This is actually hypercalvinism, I agree. I don't agree with this statement. Not all things are planned by God (not that He couldn't). The major eternity changing things are handled by God. I'm a child of God, that is by God's will. Whether I wear a blue shirt or gray shirt, God doesn't care.

As for your examples

God allows evil to happen, He uses it in His plan to accomplish His will. God does not cause evil. It is like adam and eve in the garden, he could have stopped them, but to God's greater glory He allowed them to eat of the fruit that separated them from Him. God is the same today, yesterday and in the future.

A hard concept to grasp, but it is the truth.

Hey friend thanks for the post. I don't consider it hyper calvinist at all.

Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

God makes sure evil is used for good, He makes it certain.

Acts 2:23
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Acts 4:27
For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

4:28
For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

If evil is totally random and without purpose then you can't take comfort in the following.

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Now, I don't believe God "creates" evil but makes certain the evil that comes to pass is used for good.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

It has nothing to with differences in Calvinism. It is BASIC Calvinism which we are discussing here common to all strains of Calvinism.

Please, if you don't know what you are talking about don't try to pretend that you do.

Actually it has everything to do with differences. Now please Adams son be more respectful. Consider this an informal warning...next time it will be formal.

 

[JM]

The issue between the so-called 'calvinist' and 'arminian' is this: WHETHER OR NOT GOD HAS ORDAINED ALL THAT COMES TO PASS…

As a calvinists I believe that God has a plan, any event which comes to pass has been included in this plan. Nothing, therefore happens by chance or outside the plan of God. I believe this on the basis of statements like the following:

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: (Ephesians 1:11)

His working extends to small matters Proverbs 16:33, Matthew 10:29 and great matters Daniel 4:25, 35. We know that it includes sinful deeds, including the deeds of wicked men at the Cross Acts 2:23. Such working does not in any man force the hand of the creature. The making of an event certain does not make it necessary and therefore God can remain sovereign and pure, while man is responsible and sinful. God makes the wrath of man to praise Him Psalm 76:10 while still punishing man for that wrath.

If the Doctrines of Grace be true (and everyman a lier), then this perfect plan of God extends to the most important matter of all: The salvation of YOUR soul.

If the Doctrines of Grace are wrong, then you have to come up with a viable alternative which still allows God to be God, when His plans fall short and man does his own sinful will and not Gods.

j

 

[Bick]

All I've got to say, JM, is that you obviously don't believe that the God of the universe is All Loving, All Powerful, All knowing etc, for dying humanity, as part of Adam, didn't ask to be born. And, we read in Romans 3, "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." NIV.

If, then, man of his 'own free will' would never seek God, how will anyone be saved? The answer, of course, is what Jesus told the disciples in Matt.19:25,26, after saying how difficult it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God: The disciples asked "who then can be saved?" And Jesus said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Have you not read 1 Tim. 2:3 & 4? "This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Is anything too hard for our God?

Bick

 

[bbas 64]

All I've got to say, JM, is that you obviously don't believe that the God of the universe is All Loving, All Powerful, All knowing etc, for dying humanity, as part of Adam, didn't ask to be born. And, we read in Romans 3, "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." NIV.

If, then, man of his 'own free will' would never seek God, how will anyone be saved? The answer, of course, is what Jesus told the disciples in Matt.19:25,26, after saying how difficult it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God: The disciples asked "who then can be saved?" And Jesus said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Have you not read 1 Tim. 2:3 & 4? "This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Is anything too hard for our God?

Bick

Good Day, Bick

I am not Jason, but I will bite...

There is nothing to hard for my God. If he wanted to save all people he would do so.

Your view on the other hand may differ and not have a God that is powerful enough to do that which he wants. My God really saves people.. he never fails to do so, every single time he sets his mind he does so

Would to God the line in the Hymm ring out LOUD

"Thou must save and thou alone..."

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[mutzrein]

The way I see it, God's plan is to have children. And so He does - when we are born again. Of course it doesn't start there because as the scripture says, we are children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision, or of a husband's will, but born of God.

And being in the image of God (born of His spirit) we are made responsible for the gift of life that he has given us. If we walk by faith in the provision of God's grace we are doing the work that God requires. But if we revert to trying to achieve our goal by human effort we fall into self-righteousness and in so doing are in danger of God's judgement.

Again as the scripture says, "work out your salvation with fear and trembling."

 

[AVBunyan]

Hey folks - though I admit I wrestle with events such as God ordaining the brushing of my teeth this mornning I do not wrestle with the fact that God runs things - what do I base this on? The verse JM used earlier....

Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

You can't read Isaiah 40-66 and not see that God runs things. Now, some (or I should say most folks) do not like this but it is so.

What does this tell me?

Man, in his lost state, is so depraved that he can not choose God - God has to do the work for him.

While we are on this subject I have yet to have an Armenian explain the following verses in light of them choosing God and then having the ability to "unshoose" God later on.

2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
2 Cor 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

I'll patiently wait - been waiting on this forum for 3 years for someone to explain the above verses.

Who here is brave enough or honest enough to tackle the above verses?

Thanks in advance.

God bless 8-)