Growth It’s All About Faith (From FoF)

[netchaplain]

The Lord Jesus is always more concerned with what He can do for us, rather than what we can do for Him (Luke 10:40-42). The desire of worship and service to Him and the Father is sought and returned (John 4:23, 24), and if the intention is out of debt (which there is none), the full work and understanding of grace is incomplete where the conscience is concerned, producing an inferior liberation from guilt, which results in the “weighty” reasoning that you will always owe the Father for His grace in Christ. This will spawn a works-based concept by attempting repayment, which never truly satisfies, ending with an inevitable disappointment.

Nowhere is it said in “the word of truth” that the gift of grace, which is “the free gift” (Eph 2:8; Rom 5:15, 16, 18) incurs repayment. Though this gift was at cost, wherein we were “bought with a price,” our desire to “glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's” (1 Cor 6:20) must find its sole basis in gratitude and love for Them, not out of an owed unpayable debt. This would be a miscomprehension of the proper construct concerning the definition of “gift,”—and “free” at that, not to mention frustration to the overall entailment of God’s love.

I believe one of the primary goals of the Spirit of God is to teach us to focus our faith solely on Scriptural facts within the cannon of the Bible, and minimizing, as much as lies within us from being moved by sense and intemperate emotion. A simple truth to mind is that faith is maintained only through that from which it is formed (Rom 10:17).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Nowhere is it said in “the word of truth” that the gift of grace, which is “the free gift” (Eph 2:8; Rom 5:15, 16, 18) incurs repayment.

While true, a contempt for the free gift will indeed strip you of it. Contempt for the free gift will be seen in one's disobedience, while an appreciation for the gift will be seen in one's desire to obey God and stay free of that which we have been graciously justified from. But so many can only see that as a 'works' justification/salvation that they reject the truth of it altogether and think that neither obedience, nor disobedience has any bearing on salvation whatsoever. Simply not true. Not true in the slightest way.

 

[netchaplain]

While true, a contempt for the free gift will indeed strip you of it. Contempt for the free gift will be seen in one's disobedience, while an appreciation for the gift will be seen in one's desire to obey God and stay free of that which we have been graciously justified from. But so many can only see that as a 'works' justification/salvation that they reject the truth of it altogether and think that neither obedience, nor disobedience has any bearing on salvation whatsoever. Simply not true. Not true in the slightest way.

I believe any contempt towards salvation evinces the absence of it!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I believe any contempt towards salvation evinces the absence of it!

Well, that is the popular thinking in the church today. But scripture suggests otherwise.

Failure can be a sign of weak faith, and not always a sign of no faith at all.

 

[netchaplain]

Well, that is the popular thinking in the church today. But scripture suggests otherwise.

Failure can be a sign of weak faith, and not always a sign of no faith at all.

It could be that we just understand "contempt" differently. Its primary definition is "to possess lack of respect or reverence for something."

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It could be that we just understand "contempt" differently. Its primary definition is "to possess lack of respect or reverence for something."

That's the definition I had in mind. Much like the attitude the unmerciful servant had in Matthew 18:23-35.

And perhaps some of the people who demonstrate a type two soil in the parable of the sower--who at first believe with joy, but later fall away because of troubles and persecutions, etc.--fall away through this same attitude of contempt for the goodness and grace of God they received when they believed when they start suffering for it. Which illustrates the need for a strong faith, not just faith itself. The Bible speaks of the necessity of having a faith and love for God that endures to the end. Obedience being the signature of that enduring faith and love. James calling that faith--an obedient, active faith--the faith that can save a person.

 

[netchaplain]

That's the definition I had in mind. Much like the attitude the unmerciful servant had in Matthew 18:23-35.

And perhaps some of the people who demonstrate a type two soil in the parable of the sower--who at first believe with joy, but later fall away because of troubles and persecutions, etc.

Yes Brother I understand. And if I may comment on your reply concerning something significant you brought up in the parable of the sower (Matt 13:18-230), which I believe ties in with eternal righteousness (not to change the subject), only "he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it," the rest evinced their misunderstanding the Gospel and thus, not believing but only desiring it, but not enough to believe it.

One who truly believes in the Gospel has been convinced by the Spirit concerning its meaning and in understanding it they become--through the Spirit--believers in it. Once the gift of faith (belief) is truly obtain (not just in profession but by possession), one would never desire to leave it for this world's pleasures, which was shown by the others in the parable, and God would never take it back (Rom 11:29).

If there is a desire to pursue the doctrine of OSAS, it would require another thread. The pertinence of thee two issues (righteousness / eternal security) is why I replied in the way I did.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If there is a desire to pursue the doctrine of OSAS, it would require another thread. The pertinence of thee two issues (righteousness / eternal security) is why I replied in the way I did.

I agree that we should not hammer the OSAS topic here, but it was interesting to me to see how the Protestant's misunderstanding of the law is what gives strength to it's OSAS argument.

If important implications weren't connected to this issue of the law in the New Covenant it would not be necessary to talk about this subject of the law beyond simply stating what our opinions are about it. But as it is, this erroneous understanding of the law is the foundation of dangerous doctrines about salvation and eternal security in the church.

And if I may comment on your reply concerning something significant you brought up in the parable of the sower (Matt 13:18-230), which I believe ties in with eternal righteousness (not to change the subject), only "he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it," the rest evinced their misunderstanding the Gospel and thus, not believing but only desiring it, but not enough to believe it.

But Jesus said the person representing the second type of soil did in fact believe.

I've stopped filtering the Bible through the popular doctrines taught in the church, and instead, filter what I hear in the church through the Word of God. Doing that doesn't let me rationalize away the plain fact that Jesus said the person of the second type of soil believed.

What we need to take away from Jesus' teaching is this person of type two soil did not have a strong enough faith (that is, a faith rooted deep enough) to endure the testings and trials of this life, and therefore, it failed. Instead of what the church popularly teaches that the person's faith was not real to begin with. IOW, that he didn't really believe and have faith.

I'm seeing more and more that, in the Bible, when it speaks of people having faith, and it's power to save, that it's more a matter of how strong or weak it is as measured by what it does and endures, not if it exists or doesn't exists--the way the church presently looks at it. Definitely a subject worthy of it's own thread.

One who truly believes in the Gospel has been convinced by the Spirit concerning its meaning and in understanding it they become--through the Spirit--believers in it. Once the gift of faith (belief) is truly obtain (not just in profession but by possession), one would never desire to leave it for this world's pleasures, which was shown by the others in the parable, and God would never take it back (Rom 11:29).

But, as we see, the second heart of soil did believe, but did exactly what many in the church say it can not do--fail and turn back to the world. I've found no compelling reason in the Bible to filter the word 'believe' through a teaching that suggests this was not 'true' believing that resulted in justification. But I do see much compelling evidence in the Bible that suggests we can understand the person with the second type of soil as really having believed and been justified.

The unmerciful servant in Matthew 18 begged for and really did receive forgiveness, yet his forgiven debt was reinstated when he failed to live a life in accordance with someone who had been forgiven that debt. (I know many can only hear that as a 'works' justification teaching, but it is not). The plain fact is he really was forgiven, but the church teaches us to filter this through a 'he really wasn't forgiven' teaching of it's own making, even though it plainly says he was. The church does the same thing with this matter of the law of Moses. I'm done doing that kind of thing to the plain words of the Bible.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I believe one of the primary goals of the Spirit of God is to teach us to focus our faith solely on Scriptural facts within the cannon of the Bible, and minimizing, as much as lies within us from being moved by sense and intemperate emotion.

...and us being moved by indoctrination.

As you say, 'scriptural facts'. It's amazing how the power of an indoctrination can make us look right past plain words in the Bible. I first saw the power of this demonstrated in the story Dr. Jeremiah told about a Jehovah's Witness he talked with. I learned a lot from that and realized how I did the same thing with the Bible they do, but with different doctrines. Doctrines about the role of the law, for example.

 

[eddif]

Well, that is the popular thinking in the church today. But scripture suggests otherwise.

Failure can be a sign of weak faith, and not always a sign of no faith at all.

You are doing a good job.

It is tough to realize there are differences in where we are as individuals. Lukewarm is not our goal, but an honest outlook is.

eddif

 

[netchaplain]

...and us being moved by indoctrination.

As you say, 'scriptural facts'. It's amazing how the power of an indoctrination can make us look right past plain words in the Bible.

Yes, one of the primary reasons for Scriptural misunderstanding is accepting inaccurate doctrine (2 Cor 2:13), due to insufficient Scriptural knowledge and/or comprehension. This requires time within the fundamental teachings of the Gospel, to which many have not sufficiently been exposed. This is why many Christians do not understand Scripture clearly and fully enough for spiritual growth within their faith, a condition of many in Christendom within the last century. I believe it is because the Reformation mostly addressed salvation in Christ alone, but little attention was given to the conformation to His image, which I believe is now beginning to take place.

Even though one may think he is wholehearted about something, it may just be out of desire only, which prohibits at that time, true application of being wholehearted, which if is sincerely sought will eventually be found. I believe this is a good example of the "stony places." It is not said he believed nor understood, but only "with joy received it" (Matt 13:20). The "good ground" is the sloe example in this parable which describes faith, and that is to "hear" and "understand" the Gospel of Christ, which when anyone does of both will believe. Jesus exemplified faith as not in just "hearing" only, but also in "understanding," which He attributed only to the "good ground," of which if the others possessed would have faith.

To me, faith is not something that we live in, but live by, in that we do not bring it along but it brings us along--by the Spirit's direction--its author (Gal 5:22), and I'm convinced that He does not give us the gift without Him controlling it in us, without failure. Faith is something born from God to man, and it is because of the human nature (old man) that it cannot be produced.

This gift is permanent, as is grace and all of God's gifts (Rom 11:29), for it is not sensible to conceive that God would give any Soteriological gift, while knowing its recipient would eventually choose to reject it. Not only is this confusion but reveals a lack of understanding His omniscience, and this is not a suspicion towards any individual, but rather defines those who are within its exemplary, which the Spirit within will eventually reveal concerning all Scriptural truths.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This gift is permanent, as is grace and all of God's gifts (Rom 11:29), for it is not sensible to conceive that God would give any Soteriological gift, while knowing its recipient would eventually choose to reject it.

"13 Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away." (Luke 8:13 NASB)


"32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me." (Matthew 18:32 NASB)

Jesus says the person of the type two soil believed, but then fell away. And the servant who was forgiven his debt really did have that debt forgiven, but, later, had that debt reinstated.

I blame the church's gross misunderstanding of Paul's grace/ law message for the indoctrination that presently grips the church which causes us to not see what Jesus is so plainly saying.

 

[eddif]

"13 Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away." (Luke 8:13 NASB)


"32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me." (Matthew 18:32 NASB)

Jesus says the person of the type two soil believed, but then fell away. And the servant who was forgiven his debt really did have that debt forgiven, but, later, had that debt reinstated.

I blame the church's gross misunderstanding of Paul's grace/ law message for the indoctrination that presently grips the church which causes us to not see what Jesus is so plainly saying.

II Peter 3:16 agrees with you.

The original parable of the sower had truth hidden. Many today still hear things as parables. Jesus and Paul stripped the symbols away, and if you have an ear to hear you can.

The church sometimes teaches the parables with their thoughts as the truth. Of course I live in a personal world of symbols and struggle daily with understanding. Symbols are used though out the bible, and every once in a while some are explained.

eddif

 

[netchaplain]

"13 Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away." (Luke 8:13 NASB)


"32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me." (Matthew 18:32 NASB)

Jesus says the person of the type two soil believed, but then fell away. And the servant who was forgiven his debt really did have that debt forgiven, but, later, had that debt reinstated.

I blame the church's gross misunderstanding of Paul's grace/ law message for the indoctrination that presently grips the church which causes us to not see what Jesus is so plainly saying.

To me, the usage of Luke's "believe" is not a saving faith but exemplifies a false faith (in profession only, not in possession--Jam 2:18), thus a historical faith that just appears to believe, because only true faith abides. The abiding is the work of Christ which is always perfect and unfailing, and is never incomplete in any individual, Him being not only the "author" but also the "finisher" (Heb 12:2).

This also answers to, "for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day" (2 Tim 1:12). Also, "They went out from us, because they were not of us" (1 John 2:19).

The misconception of a temporary salvation derives its acceptance from legalism, about which many sincere believers are unknowingly mistaken, and liberation from it and all errant doctrine requires a humility commensurate with one's pride, from which all believer's difficulties are the greatest to overcome.

Brother, I believe there are only two reasons why one could be unborn, which do not exist IMO. The individual no longer has the Father's desires, a thing impossible, unless His "work in you" (Phl 2:13) is insufficient, which is inconceivable. The other would be the Lord Himself finally deciding to reject you, another impossibility (John 6:37).

There are numerous Scriptural passages that appear to support what I call "temporal salvation," which upon full examination invalidates the concept. There's no doubt that considering the level of significance of such a possibility, Scripture would be clear concerning it, as clear as it is concerning being born again.

I again recommend to the wholehearted bible readers to use Bible commentaries in their studies. If one is seeking truth wholeheartedly, one will not have to be concerned of being misled, for the believer cannot truly be "fooled" (Matt 24:24).

Unless I'm too late realizing it, I believe I may owe the Amin/Mods an apology, because I just noticed I didn't start another thread for these OSAS replies, and I also ask the viewers to please excuse the mistake.

John Gill-- "which for a while believe": "Which shows it is not true faith; for that is an abiding grace, Christ, who is the author, is the finisher of it, and prays for it, that it fail not. The Persic version renders it, "in the time of hearing they have faith"; and such sort of hearers there are, who, whilst they are hearing, assent to what they hear, but when they are gone, either forget it, or, falling into bad company, are prevailed upon to doubt of it, and disbelieve it."

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The misconception of a temporary salvation derives its acceptance from legalism...

Precisely!

Exactly what I came here just now to address.

Pressed for time, but I will try to focus my energies here for a while.

This is where I'm going, and to which you alluded to (whether you know it or not) in a post: The church has erroneously assigned the 'work' of believing itself to the works that Paul says can not justify. You alluded to it in your statements about faith in God being so utterly of God. Which it is, but not to the point of creating a 'I'm saved and there's nothing I can do about it' doctrine.

I want to show you how this erroneous understanding of Paul's grace/law teaching has energized the doctrines of OSAS, and pre-detemined election in the church. Both of which are summarized as 'I'm saved and there's nothing I can do about it' doctrines.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The church sometimes teaches the parables with their thoughts as the truth.

Yes, I think that is exactly what the church does with many scriptures in the NT. They filter them through what they already have been taught and believe, instead of letting the scriptures teach them what they should believe.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I believe one of the primary goals of the Spirit of God is to teach us to focus our faith solely on Scriptural facts within the cannon of the Bible, and minimizing, as much as lies within us from being moved by sense and intemperate emotion.

I emboldened the part of your quote that I did to make emphasize on this fact that God does want us to apply the free gift of faith that he has given the world. In a sense, work it for our good.

Faith is the supernatural ability to know something is true that you can't see and would otherwise have no way of knowing is true. This is the free gift of faith that God gives. When he calls a person he gives them enough faith to know the gospel is true. Some choose to discard the truth God reveals to them through this gracious enablement of faith. Others, a very few, take it to heart, retaining it, and put their trust in what the free gift of faith has shown them to be true. It is this believing, this trusting, that secures a declaration of righteousness, not just the knowing through faith that the gospel is true.

Even you acknowledge by your statement above that faith can be steered around for the purpose God sent it to fulfill. Man has the obligation to do with God's gift of faith that it was sent to do for us. We are to 'do' the work of trusting in Christ through the gracious supernatural enablement of faith that God gave us and which gives us the confidence that the gospel is true and is, therefore, worthy of our trust, our believing.

Most in the church, it seems, think that if we assign any merit of believing to man (as opposed to just knowing the gospel is true through God's gracious gift of faith), and doing the right thing with the free gift of faith, that it amounts to nothing more than the damnable works gospel Paul rails against in his letters. But this believing is the exact thing that Paul contrasts with the works that can not justify a person. Believing is not a work that can not justify. It is the one and only 'work' that can!

The duty and obligation of man is to believe in the truth, that is, purposely place his trust in it. Not just know what God has graciously shown them about the gospel. Every demon, and every unbeliever that was called knows the gospel is true. But it is the man who places his trust in what God has graciously shown him to be true, that is the person who stands justified before God. And 'doing' that hardly equates to a 'works' gospel, for that is the very thing Paul says DOES justify a person. But the church has it that to assign the obligation to believe and trust in the gospel to man himself is to make the gospel the damnable works gospel Paul talks about. This erroneous understanding is what gives rise to doctrines about the utter absence of man's role in salvation (OSAS, predetermined election).

Doing righteous things is not how sin guilt is removed. Sin guilt is removed through the forgiveness of that sin. It is not a damnable works gospel to purposely choose to 'do' the work of believing through the gift of faith God has freely given you--the believing which then secures the forgiveness of sin. What God wants us to do is retain and continue in the faith he has given us, continually steering it toward a dependence on Christ's work to keep us guilt free before the Father until the Day of Redemption. This is not a works gospel to take on the responsibility to retain and continue in the free gift of faith God has given. This is THE gospel. It is what the Bible tells us we must do, or else be lost on the Day of Judgment.

 

[netchaplain]

God does want us to apply the free gift of faith that he has given the world.

I thank the Lord for believers, such as yourself, and all who fellowship in the Word on all the Christian forum sites. To put it simply, and as you may or may not already agree, comprehending the difference between grace and legalism can be easily seen in James', "I will shew thee my faith by my works" (2:18). Works derived from faith exemplifies Grace, but faith derived from works exemplifies legalism, or Covenantism, in which the focus is on the "arm of flesh," rather than the arm of God.

James wrote concerning "showing," which is another word for "justifying" his faith, and not producing his faith, which always precedes true works. This is seen in James 2:24: "by works a man is justified." Here, the Greek usage for justified is "dikaioō," Strong's G1344 defined: 1. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous; 2. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous. This is not the same usage in Romans 3:24, which is the usage for rendering one righteous, as opposed to showing or revealing. Thus, the phrase "by my works" is in reference to the "showing," and not producing, which is often mistaken.

Covenantism was the method God for Israel according to His purpose then, but the covenant of which believers are recipients now is not between man and God, but between God and His Son.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

To put it simply, and as you may or may not already agree, comprehending the difference between grace and legalism can be easily seen in James', "I will shew thee my faith by my works" (2:18).

I do agree. The necessity for grace to be revealed in works does not equate to a works gospel. But I've talked with so many Christians that simply disagree with James who says faith not acted out in works is the faith that can not save. The thinking being, that to purposely do something amounts to nothing more than a works gospel. I suggest to NOT purposely walk in faithful works for fear of operating in Paul's works gospel is to rationalize disobedience.

Works derived from faith exemplifies Grace, but faith derived from works exemplifies legalism...

I like how you put that.

Covenantism was the method God for Israel according to His purpose then, but the covenant of which believers are recipients now is not between man and God, but between God and His Son.

The way I look at it is, Christ is a New Covenant by which we draw near to God. Christ is the New Covenant God has established between Himself and man.

“But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." (Jeremiah 31:33 NASB)

And we enter into this New Covenant God has made with us by way of faith in Christ.