It's all about Iraq, isn't it?

[Gary]

Yep, it's all about Iraq and...

India and the Sudan and Algeria and Afghanistan and New York and Pakistan and Israel and Russia and Chechnya and the Philippines and Indonesia and Nigeria and Thailand and Spain and Egypt and Bangladesh and Saudi Arabia and Ingushetia and Dagestan and Britain and Turkey and Kabardino-Balkaria and Morocco and Yemen and Lebanon and France and Uzbekistan and Gaza and Tunisia and Kosovo and Bosnia and Mauritania and Kenya and Eritrea and Syria and Somalia and California and Kuwait and Virginia and Ethiopia and Iran and Jordan and United Arab Emirates and Louisiana and Texas and Tanzania and Sri Lanka and Pennsylvania and Belgium and Denmark and East Timor and Qatar and Maryland and the Netherlands and Scotland and...

...and pretty much wherever Muslims believe their religion tells them to:

"Fight and slay the Unbelievers wherever ye find them. Seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war."
Qur'an, Sura 9:5

" The List " of Islamic Terror Attacks For the Past 12 Months
...click here... http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

 

[Quadeshet]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_viol.htm

"It is to be noted that the essentially all pro-life groups are opposed to violence. Most groups that advocate violence tend to be small, often one person organizations. Perpetrators of violent crimes often work independently. The U.S. Justice Department has investigated attacks on clinics and has determined that no conspiracy is involved."

Funny how an large group of peace loving people people are judged by the actions of a few extremists, isn't it?

 

[Orthodox Christian]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_viol.htm

"It is to be noted that the essentially all pro-life groups are opposed to violence. Most groups that advocate violence tend to be small, often one person organizations. Perpetrators of violent crimes often work independently. The U.S. Justice Department has investigated attacks on clinics and has determined that no conspiracy is involved."

Funny how an large group of peace loving people people are judged by the actions of a few extremists, isn't it?

A "few?"
Are you insane?
There are dozens every day, in every part of the world. The history of Islam is a history of violence and conquest. To compare the ubiquitous violence of Islam with a few isolated examples of anti-abortion violence is like comparing a campfire with a supernova.

 

[Quid]

Holocaust.

Now, I'm sure many of you would claim Hitler was no Christian, which may very well be true judging his actions. However, he is just as much a true Christian as the people who make these attacks are true Muslims.

 

[Quath]

The history of Christianity is full of violence as well. I think it should avoid finger pointing in this case lest we forget the Inquisitions and Crusades. Also Christianity was used to motivate people to kill in other cases like the slaughter of the American Indians and on both sides of the World Wars.

The problem is both religions have passages in their Holy Books that call for peace and others that call for violence. So people can use their religion to do either. We have to bring in the extremists to keep the violence down.

Quath

 

[Orthodox Christian]

The history of Christianity is full of violence as well. I think it should avoid finger pointing in this case lest we forget the Inquisitions and Crusades. Also Christianity was used to motivate people to kill in other cases like the slaughter of the American Indians and on both sides of the World Wars.

The problem is both religions have passages in their Holy Books that call for peace and others that call for violence. So people can use their religion to do either. We have to bring in the extremists to keep the violence down.

Quath

The problem with the Crusades is that they were poorly planned, by and large, and their execution involved the death of innocent victims (Jews in Jerusalem).

Other than that, had not the Crusades been launched, and had not the battles been won at Tours, in Kosovo, and in Spain, we would all be living under Muslim law.

There is nothing in the New Testament that advocates for violence at all- not even in 'self-defense.' Nonetheless, since the beginning of the Muslim Crusades in the 7th century, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, animists and others have had to go to war to remain free from Muslim tyranny.

Or they could have simply endured the fate of the Blacks in Darfur- to be eradicated by the Arab elite.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Holocaust.

Now, I'm sure many of you would claim Hitler was no Christian, which may very well be true judging his actions. However, he is just as much a true Christian as the people who make these attacks are true Muslims.

What a crock. Hitler not only was an opponent of Christianity- he was an ally to Islam

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandat ... _mufti.php
http://www.sullivan-county.com/id4/mufti.htm
http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/ ... 34942.html
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/007180.php
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/a ... 004054.php
http://www.serbianna.com/columns/savich/071.shtml

Read also "The Myth of Hitler's Pope" Rabbi Dalin
from review by Ronald Rychlak, Crisis Magazine:

Dalin ultimately takes the media to task for their silence about al-Husseini and Arab anti-Semitism, noting that “it is radical Islamâ€â€Hitler’s overt ally in World War IIâ€â€not the Catholic Church, that threatens Jews today.†It is a hypothesis worth serious consideration by both moderate Muslims and the American media.

 

[Vic C.]

There is nothing in the New Testament that advocates for violence at all- not even in 'self-defense.' Nonetheless, since the beginning of the Muslim Crusades in the 7th century, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, animists and others have had to go to war to remain free from Muslim tyranny.

Well said James.

Their book teaches no distinction between then and now. What applied at the time it was written is taken just as serious now. :-?

 

[Quid]

But Hitler claimed he was Christian. Why is it that what he says means nothing while suicide bombers and murderers are considered representive of their culture?

Or I could point you to any other supremist group. However, that'd hardly be representive of Christians as the whole. The fact that you see more news stories involving bombers who claim to be of Islamic faith does not mean Islam is a religion of bombers.

People will constantly use religion to further their own goals. You'd do well to start blaming the people who use relgion for that and not the religion they use.

 

[Vic C.]

Gen 16:11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
Gen 16:12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

The Lord knew from day one there would be trouble.

 

[Lonelyguide]

Now, I'm sure many of you would claim Hitler was no Christian, which may very well be true judging his actions. However, he is just as much a true Christian as the people who make these attacks are true Muslims.

Hitler was no Christian. The Nazi (National Socialist) ideologies were influenced by (mutilated and raped versions of) the theories of Nietzsche and others.

Gandhi said: the world would be a better place if Christians were better Christians, if Muslims were better Muslims and if Buddhists were better Buddhists.

 

[Quath]

The problem with the Crusades is that they were poorly planned, by and large, and their execution involved the death of innocent victims (Jews in Jerusalem).

Other than that, had not the Crusades been launched, and had not the battles been won at Tours, in Kosovo, and in Spain, we would all be living under Muslim law.

I agree in part. Part of the crusades was to keep Muslims from expanding further. But they also involved lots of needless killing and "killing for God" seemed to be the motto of that war.

There is nothing in the New Testament that advocates for violence at all- not even in 'self-defense.' Nonetheless, since the beginning of the Muslim Crusades in the 7th century, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, animists and others have had to go to war to remain free from Muslim tyranny.

There is plenty in the New Testament to allow for one to commit violence:

1. It is connected to the OT violence. If Jesus is God, then Jesus also supports all the violence of the OT.
2. Devalue the peace stuff. For example, one thread on this forum, several people said that turn the other cheek only applied to personal insults, it was not a general statement to stop fighting back.
3. Show the violent quotes where Jesus talkes about turning mother against daughter and coming back with a sword.

The Quran has passages for peace as well. In a sense, people can interpret it either way, just as they can with the Bible.

What a crock. Hitler not only was an opponent of Christianity- he was an ally to Islam

I have read about Hitler's beliefs. Here is what I can tell. It seems he started off Christian. However, he liked the OT better. So he devalued the NT and supported the OT, where God supports having one race kill off ther others. Officially, Hitler was a Catholic since he was not excommunicated.

However, Hitler's religion is really small potatos. What is important is the religion of his followers, which was mostly Christian. Using Christian speeches, Hitler rallied the Christians of Germany to kill Jews and fight othe Christians around the world. He got Christians to believe that God was on his side as He has been with Joshua.

Quath

 

[Orthodox Christian]

But Hitler claimed he was Christian. Why is it that what he says means nothing while suicide bombers and murderers are considered representive of their culture?

Or I could point you to any other supremist group. However, that'd hardly be representive of Christians as the whole. The fact that you see more news stories involving bombers who claim to be of Islamic faith does not mean Islam is a religion of bombers.

People will constantly use religion to further their own goals. You'd do well to start blaming the people who use relgion for that and not the religion they use.

This is utter foolishness. Stalin was an atheist, but his actions do not implicate atheists. He and his henchman destroyed the Orthodox church in Russia, killing scores of thousands of priests, closing churches, and imprisoning 78 of 80 bishops. Yet in a balanced analysis, one would clearly see Stalin's actions as the actions of a political tyrant- just as one would see the actions of Hitler- whatever he claimed to be (still in dispute).

Islam, on the other hand, has been a font of violence, and there is no distinction between camel-herder and Caliph, merchant and Imam: all have continuously acted with impunity against the kafir, those who are not of the ummah.

Let us consider the current state of affairs:
What freedoms will one enjoy in lands that are primarily Chistian? How about those which are primarily Muslim? How about those which are dedicated to atheism?

You will find that civil and religious liberties exist only in those countries that are either secular with Christian roots (example: Scandinavia) or majority Christian (US/Canada) or overtly Christian, with a state Church (Greece). Civil liberties as we understand them do not exist for kafirs in Arab countries. Neither do they exist in Communist countries.

I'm sorry, but Islam is violent and oppressive everywhere it exists. Other religions and non-religions have had their bad moments, but with Islam it is one prolonged, endless bad moment.

 

[Gary]

...The fact that you see more news stories involving bombers who claim to be of Islamic faith does not mean Islam is a religion of bombers.

Top ten reasons why Islam is not the religion of peace:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/ ... easons.htm

Muslim Crusades vs. Christian Crusades
http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/ ... usades.htm

Islamic Martyrdom: The Economy of Death in the Quran
http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/ ... conomy.htm

:o

 

[Quid]

...The fact that you see more news stories involving bombers who claim to be of Islamic faith does not mean Islam is a religion of bombers.

Top ten reasons why Islam is not the religion of peace:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/ ... easons.htm

Muslim Crusades vs. Christian Crusades
http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/ ... usades.htm

Islamic Martyrdom: The Economy of Death in the Quran
http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/ ... conomy.htm

:o

Hey look.

I am posting links to biased articles.

They make Christianity look bad.

Care to try better? Papers written by a Christian site about Islam being bad doesn't really hold much water.

 

[Gary]

Papers written by a Christian site about Islam being bad doesn't really hold much water.

You can look up the passages for yourself in the Quran.

Have you ever read the Quran?

http://www.geocities.com/gary_bee_za/jihad/
http://www.geocities.com/gary_bee_za/ji ... detail.htm

:-?

 

[Quadeshet]

No, I'm not crazy.

I would imagine the world would be in a far worse situation than it is if 1.3 billion people were all trying to kill everyone who didn't share their belief system.

Like Quid said: blame the people who use religion as an excuse for violence, not the religion itself.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

The problem with the Crusades is that they were poorly planned, by and large, and their execution involved the death of innocent victims (Jews in Jerusalem).

Other than that, had not the Crusades been launched, and had not the battles been won at Tours, in Kosovo, and in Spain, we would all be living under Muslim law.

I agree in part. Part of the crusades was to keep Muslims from expanding further. But they also involved lots of needless killing and "killing for God" seemed to be the motto of that war.
Agreed. And it was this folly that has allowed Islam and certain liberal academicians to divert attention toward the Crusades and away from ubiquitous Muslim aggression.

There is nothing in the New Testament that advocates for violence at all- not even in 'self-defense.' Nonetheless, since the beginning of the Muslim Crusades in the 7th century, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, animists and others have had to go to war to remain free from Muslim tyranny.

There is plenty in the New Testament to allow for one to commit violence:

1. It is connected to the OT violence. If Jesus is God, then Jesus also supports all the violence of the OT.
On the contrary, Jesus said "you have heard it said, but I say to you."
Orthodox Christians have always understood the NT to be the superior revelation, as it is written
"God, in various times and in diverse ways spoke to the fathers through the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us in His Son."
To us, this means that all OT revelation must be examine against the gospel. If there is conflict or contradicition, the OT is abrogated. See divorce as a prime example.
2. Devalue the peace stuff. For example, one thread on this forum, several people said that turn the other cheek only applied to personal insults, it was not a general statement to stop fighting back.
And we who are of the unbroken Church would say "ridiculous!"
Christ's teaching was succinctly summed by Paul: Be not overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. This means that even the wars that we have fought to slow Islam have been at variance with the gospel to some degree. The early fathers were never able to create a "just war" theology, though Augustine valiantly endeavored to do so, because the NT simply does not support war- ever.

The Amish know this, that is why they will never pick up arms. This reality places the rest of us who live surrounded by mercenaries and Visigoths ina dilemma.
3. Show the violent quotes where Jesus talkes about turning mother against daughter and coming back with a sword.
He said that He brings a sword, not that we should wield one. There is one odd passage where He says to sell a cloak and go buy a sword, and that has been the source of the afore-mentioned just war theology. Trouble is, one passage does not doctrine make.

Note that when He says that family members would be turned, it is that they would be turned against the followers of Christ, and perform violence against them- not the other way around. That's a very important distinction.

The Quran has passages for peace as well. In a sense, people can interpret it either way, just as they can with the Bible.
The fact of the matter is that pople have used and are using the Koran to advocate violence. The Koran calls for believers to fight against kafirs. The NT calls for believers to not resist. There is no equivalence to be made.

[quote:9e6da]What a crock. Hitler not only was an opponent of Christianity- he was an ally to Islam

I have read about Hitler's beliefs. Here is what I can tell. It seems he started off Christian. However, he liked the OT better. So he devalued the NT and supported the OT, where God supports having one race kill off ther others. Officially, Hitler was a Catholic since he was not excommunicated.
As I wrote in my post above, Hitler was a Christian in the same way Stalin was an atheist. Both were despots, neither represented the zeitgeist of their respective claimed belief systems.

However, Hitler's religion is really small potatos. What is important is the religion of his followers, which was mostly Christian. Using Christian speeches, Hitler rallied the Christians of Germany to kill Jews and fight othe Christians around the world. He got Christians to believe that God was on his side as He has been with Joshua.
Same thing goes for Stalin. Do not forget that there were upwards of 6 million Christians who died in Hitler's 'solution,' also.


Quath[/quote:9e6da]

 

[Gary]

.... I would imagine the world would be in a far worse situation than it is if 1.3 billion people were all trying to kill everyone who didn't share their belief system.

Like Quid said: blame the people who use religion as an excuse for violence, not the religion itself.

Muhammad murdered those who opposed him. His followers have done the same for 1400 years.

• Muhammad and the Rape of the Female Slaves
  Muhammad and the Murder of Abu Afak
  Muhammad and the Murder of Asma bint Marwan
  The Deception and Murder of Kab al-Ashraf
  Muhammad and the Death of Kinana
  Muhammad and the Death of the Uraynians
  Muhammad and the Killing of Apostates
  Muhammad and the Meccan Ten
  Muhammad and the Treaty of Hudaybiyya
  Slavery in Islam

http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/index.htm

:-?

 

[Guest]

Now, I'm sure many of you would claim Hitler was no Christian, which may very well be true judging his actions. However, he is just as much a true Christian as the people who make these attacks are true Muslims.

Hitler was no Christian. The Nazi (National Socialist) ideologies were influenced by (mutilated and raped versions of) the theories of Nietzsche and others.

Hitler certainly claimed to be a Christian.

Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.

He is as much of a Christian as the suicide bombers are Muslims.

Thus, if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, God does not allow you to harm them.

So, if you follow the word of the Qu'ran, the only reasonable war is one of self-defense.

There must be no coercion in matters of faith!

A bit more reasonable position than another Judeo-Christian belief-system (hint: Christianity).

O people! We have formed you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another.

So that you man know one another... not kill, pillage, destroy, etc.

And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except in the best way, unless it be with those of them who do wrong: but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you. Our God and your God is One; and it is to Him we submit."

Sounds more like the Qu'ran is trying to preach peace among the various Judeo-Christian beliefs.