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James the Apostle in Gal 1:19

Who is James in Gal 1:19

  • A son of Mary, Jesus Mother - I don't care what the rest of the Bible says.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • James the son of Zebedee who Mary married.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • James, son of Alpheus, a relative of Jesus.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • James, son of Zebedee, a relative of Jesus.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • James the son of Mary, he later became an Apostle

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I don't know.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Either the son of Alpheus, or Zebedee but not a son of Mary.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    1
T

thessalonian

Guest
James the Apostle in Gal 1:19 is said to be a "brother of Jesus".


[19] But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord's brother.


Now in the listings of the Apostles there are only two James's. The Son of Alpheus and the Son of Zebedee

[2] The names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zeb'edee, and John his brother;
[3] Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus;
[4] Simon the Cananaean, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.


So who is James in Gal 1:19
 
Please amend the Poll answers to include.....

James the Just, younger brother of Jesus, son of Mary and Joseph...

so I can vote....
 
Was James the Just an Apostle? Were there three apostles named James?
 
Georges said:
Please amend the Poll answers to include.....

James the Just, younger brother of Jesus, son of Mary and Joseph...

so I can vote....

Not really familiar with the title 'Just', but I would certainly be more likely to vote on the 'younger brother and son of Mary and Joseph.
 
Was James the Just an Apostle? Were there three apostles named James?
 
Thessalonian said:
James the Apostle in Gal 1:19 is said to be a "brother of Jesus".


[19] But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord's brother.


Now in the listings of the Apostles there are only two James's. The Son of Alpheus and the Son of Zebedee

[2] The names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zeb'edee, and John his brother;
[3] Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus;
[4] Simon the Cananaean, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.


So who is James in Gal 1:19

The problem is not identifying the truth. The problem is in the willingness to accept it. Most people are only willing to accept what suits their fancies. And what is even more troubling, is that many seem to think a stubborn refusal to consider anything else but what they already believe, is a good thing. Hence, they take the way of the stiff-necked.
 
Does it really matter? I mean if we all voted that he was Mary & Joseph's son, would it make any difference to you?
 
This is really sad. Can any of you explain how James was an apostle and son of Mary? Or are you just going to keep avoiding the heart of the matter? I have not stopped you from posting your opinions that don't agree with my poll. Do it.
 
mutzrein said:
Does it really matter? I mean if we all voted that he was Mary & Joseph's son, would it make any difference to you?
Again, as in another thread, I agree with you that it doesn't really matter. I am not familiar with ANY messianic prophecy that states that the Mother of Messiah must remain a virgin. George, this is your area; correct me if I'm wrong.

I do agree that Scripture says Messiah would be born of a virgin; though this depends on how "almah" is translated in Isaiah 7:14. The word has been translated as Virgin, Young woman, maiden, girl, etc.

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/tex ... rgoryw.htm
 
vic said:
mutzrein said:
Does it really matter? I mean if we all voted that he was Mary & Joseph's son, would it make any difference to you?
Again, as in another thread, I agree with you that it doesn't really matter. I am not familiar with ANY messianic prophecy that states that the Mother of Messiah must remain a virgin. George, this is your area; correct me if I'm wrong.

I do agree that Scripture says Messiah would be born of a virgin; though this depends on how "almah" is translated in Isaiah 7:14. The word has been translated as Virgin, Young woman, maiden, girl, etc.

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/tex ... rgoryw.htm

I don't think he is saying that it doesn't matter. He is implying that I would not change my mind if they voted that he was a son of Mary. It does matter in Catholic theology because of Mary being a type of the Church and also mother of all Christians but that's another topic. Right now I just want someone to resolve for me how a man identified as an Apostle, can also be the son of Mary, Jesus mother. (I do think that he is a son of Mary, but not Jesus mother, Mary, wife of Clopas.). People on this board argue like it matters and like I am the one who is going against scripture. But noone will defend that James in Gal 1:19 is a son of Mary, beyond some handwaving.
 
Thessalonian said:
vic said:
mutzrein said:
Does it really matter? I mean if we all voted that he was Mary & Joseph's son, would it make any difference to you?
Again, as in another thread, I agree with you that it doesn't really matter. I am not familiar with ANY messianic prophecy that states that the Mother of Messiah must remain a virgin. George, this is your area; correct me if I'm wrong.

I do agree that Scripture says Messiah would be born of a virgin; though this depends on how "almah" is translated in Isaiah 7:14. The word has been translated as Virgin, Young woman, maiden, girl, etc.

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/tex ... rgoryw.htm

I don't think he is saying that it doesn't matter. He is implying that I would not change my mind if they voted that he was a son of Mary. It does matter in Catholic theology because of Mary being a type of the Church and also mother of all Christians but that's another topic. Right now I just want someone to resolve for me how a man identified as an Apostle, can also be the son of Mary, Jesus mother. (I do think that he is a son of Mary, but not Jesus mother, Mary, wife of Clopas.). People on this board argue like it matters and like I am the one who is going against scripture. But noone will defend that James in Gal 1:19 is a son of Mary, beyond some handwaving.

Yes Thess (Mmmm that has a ring to it) you are right in your assessment of what I was saying. You would not change your mind - nor can you I suppose as long as you remain a catholic. But apart from the your objection on the basis of catholic doctrine, what would prevent Jesus brother from being an Apostle?
 
Yes, Mutz is right. There is an indication that the apostles had the ability to 'pass on' the gifts that they were empowered with by the 'laying on' of hands. There is indication that Stephen would have been considered a kind of 'pseudo' apostle, and Barnabas.

So, it would be quite possible that James could have been the literal 'brother' of Christ AND an apostle. Since the Bible states that Joseph never slept with Mary before Christ's birth, the indication is that they most likely did after His birth. I know that this is contradictory to the Catholic doctrine, but what difference could that make to anyone other than the people that simply created doctrine as they 'went along'? Like trying to make Mary the 'mother' of God? And what difference would her perpetual virginity make? I mean, why would anyone even create such doctrine? Unless, of course, they wanted to worship her too.
 
mutzrein said:
Thessalonian said:
vic said:
mutzrein said:
Does it really matter? I mean if we all voted that he was Mary & Joseph's son, would it make any difference to you?
Again, as in another thread, I agree with you that it doesn't really matter. I am not familiar with ANY messianic prophecy that states that the Mother of Messiah must remain a virgin. George, this is your area; correct me if I'm wrong.

I do agree that Scripture says Messiah would be born of a virgin; though this depends on how "almah" is translated in Isaiah 7:14. The word has been translated as Virgin, Young woman, maiden, girl, etc.

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/tex ... rgoryw.htm

I don't think he is saying that it doesn't matter. He is implying that I would not change my mind if they voted that he was a son of Mary. It does matter in Catholic theology because of Mary being a type of the Church and also mother of all Christians but that's another topic. Right now I just want someone to resolve for me how a man identified as an Apostle, can also be the son of Mary, Jesus mother. (I do think that he is a son of Mary, but not Jesus mother, Mary, wife of Clopas.). People on this board argue like it matters and like I am the one who is going against scripture. But noone will defend that James in Gal 1:19 is a son of Mary, beyond some handwaving.

Yes Thess (Mmmm that has a ring to it) you are right in your assessment of what I was saying. You would not change your mind - nor can you I suppose as long as you remain a catholic. But apart from the your objection on the basis of catholic doctrine, what would prevent Jesus brother from being an Apostle?

At least one of Jesus brothers was an Apostle! I don't deny that for a minute but there is plenty of evidence in scripture that the greek/hebrew word brother was not limited to siblings of the same mother. Even in our own language it is not, though it is the most common thought that comes to mind when one is called brother. Yet I call close friends brother. It is not an abuse of the English language at all. Paul, all over the place calls people brother. He had one huge family if all the people he calls brother are from his mother.

Now to your question. I am sure you will be okay with me rearranging it a bit as I think you intend to say "brother from the same mother". Absolutely nothing would prevent a "brother from the same mother" from being an Apostle if Christ chose them. But we have actually only 14 named apostles. Judas killed himself of course. He was replaced in fullfullment of prophecy with Barnabas. Barnabas was an Apostle who took the office that Judas held. But there is no indication that ANY other Apostle was ever replaced. Historically there is no evidence either. There are 80 uses of the word apostle in the NT. None of them indicate that there are any other apostles other than the 14 named apostles. There is no reason to believe that the James mentioned in Galatians is anyone other than one of the two previously know James'. We once again know that they are sons of Alpheus and Zebedee. So the most logical conclusion is that James in Galatians is one of these two. There is no reason not to allow for the broader usage of the term that is rendered brother in English. I don't think it is me that is being stubborn here. Being Catholic really has nothing to do with it because I am in no way claiming to prove by this that Mary did not have other children. You seem compelled to force James the Apostle to be a child of Mary, when a plain reading of the text makes that very highly unlikely.

Blessings
 
Imagican said:
Yes, Mutz is right. There is an indication that the apostles had the ability to 'pass on' the gifts that they were empowered with by the 'laying on' of hands. There is indication that Stephen would have been considered a kind of 'pseudo' apostle, and Barnabas.

So, it would be quite possible that James could have been the literal 'brother' of Christ AND an apostle. Since the Bible states that Joseph never slept with Mary before Christ's birth, the indication is that they most likely did after His birth. I know that this is contradictory to the Catholic doctrine, but what difference could that make to anyone other than the people that simply created doctrine as they 'went along'? Like trying to make Mary the 'mother' of God? And what difference would her perpetual virginity make? I mean, why would anyone even create such doctrine? Unless, of course, they wanted to worship her too.

Imigican,

Don't try to be a Catholic theologian. Your not very good at it. There is much reason why these Catholic doctrines are important that go beyond the scope of this thread. Essentially it has to do with typology. Mary was a type of the Church. Things about her have implications on understanding of what the Church is all about. It is far beyond your knowledge of Catholicism and you are not open to it. As for making this stuff up to worship her the fact of the matter is that this stuff can be found in the very earliest writings of the Church. Also in the early writings there was a group called the Coloridians who actually did proposed worshipping Mary. This group was condemned. My advice to you is not to try and figure out Catholic theology and the reasons for doing things at least without reading Catholic theologians. Why would you ever try to figure out nuclear physics without reading books by Nuclear physicists. Yet you speculate on Catholcism with quite evidently no reading or understanding of Catholic theology.


Barnabas was an apostle. He filled Judas office as prophesied in Joel. There is no indication that Stephen was an Apostle. Paul was an apostle by special privlidge due to his vision and conversion. There is no indication of anyone else being an Apostle unless you stretch the verses.

Blessings
 
I may not be an 'expert' on the Catholic faith, but I have done quite a bit of reading concerning their history 'and' beliefs.

I have also done a bit of reading and studying of the Word. Not an expert by any stretch of the imagination. But, I have read it intensely and feel that I have a pretty good 'basic' understanding of it's principles and history. I now focus on geography in my latest studies.

Having a relatively descent knowledge of the Bible brings me to the fact that as we see in Acts 1:16-26, their lots fell upon Matthias and not Barsabas. So, when we see the mention of Barnabas indicating his possible apostleship, we can safely deduce that even if NOT an apostle, much like Stephen, he was certainly a powerful Saint.

No, Thess, I do not claim to know all the 'reasons' that the Catholic Church chooses to follow and teach their doctrine. I do recognize much that doesn't have an 'obvious' connection to the Word. What I am MOST confused about is why they didn't just 'completely' change the Bible into something that more closely resembles that which they teach and follow. But, I guess, since the written Word was denied to the people, for a time, it didn't really matter what it said if no one except the leaders got to read it.

And, even if we don't have direct 'proof' of James being the sibling of Christ, we have even less 'proof' or even reason to believe that Mary remained a 'virgin' throughout her life. I believe that the marriage between Joseph and Mary would have been of no purpose were they not to consummate their marriage in the marriage bed, after the birth of Jesus.

And, as for her being a symbol of the Church in the respect of her virginity, the Church has been introduced to such corruption over the centuries that this would make it's virginity nothing more than 'wishful thinking'. And, even though you, and those of your faith, would tell me of these similarities of Mary, her life, and the Church, I believe these too are wishful thinking, for I find no massive amount of scripture to indicate the importance of this 'Mary, 'Queen' of heaven worship. Since there is no specific offering of her overwhelming importance in the Word to warrant the honor or esteem that your Church places upon her, I question this part of the doctrine as well.


16Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.

17For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.

18Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

19And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.

20For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

21Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

22Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

23And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

24And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

25That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

26And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.



What we have above is the fulfilling of prophecy that the apostles were insistent must be fulfilled. And this offers only that there need be twelve at 'one time' so 'one' needed to take the place of Judas. There is no reason to believe that 'after' the Holy Spirit was received of them that there weren't any other apostles.

NO, I am NOT a believer in 'modern day' apostles. I truly believe that they were; for 'a time' and for a 'purpose' and once that purpose was fulfilled, there was no longer a need for them. After the apostles, who were impowered with the power of Christ, had completed their mission, the Church was 'then' to rely upon faith instead of miracles. And no, I am NOT trying to start another thread folks. Just clarifying my position on apostleship.

So, whether James WAS the son of Mary or not, there is still indication that Mary had other children, or at least the indication by the offering that Joseph 'didn't' sleep with Mary before, and during her carrying Jesus, is that he did 'after' Jesus' birth. And, unless one of them, (Mary or Joseph), were sterile, they most likely had children.

And this in NO way makes Mary any less the mother of Jesus to me. And it in NO WAY makes her unworthy of her position. She followed the law in her marriage and it was her 'duty' to offer herself to her husband after the birth of Christ.

And, let us not forget that the Word specifically warns us about those that would forbid others to wed. We were also told that through a marriage two become ONE and neither are to deny the other without a mutual agreement.
 
And, even if we don't have direct 'proof' of James being the sibling of Christ

This it seems to me is an admission that you are making doctrinal/dogmatic statements concerning the nature of the relationship of James in Galations to Jesus Christ without coming close to being able to prove it scripturally. In fact I think the objective observer has to admit that your case is far worse than the case that James was not a son of Mary. The motivation seems to be,from the nature of your post, to gain and advantage on Catholics in the discussion on perpetual virginity. Let me put it another way, you have biased and corrupted your understanding of a passage of scripture, based on what Catholicism teaches. How many other passages do you allow such biases to enter in to the conversation? How credible are your interpretations in general. Not very good it seems to me if you can muck this passage up so poorly.

I'll not comment much on the rest of your demonizing of Catholicism above as it is simply a manifestation of your inward prejudice without analyzing the historical data with an open mind. Similar to your inability to analize the Galations passage with an open mind. It seems Protestants must make these ad hom attacks on the Catholic Church with the stroke of a broad brush in order to prop up and add some sort of credibility to their Biblical stand in some fashion. I don't see Catholics needing to demonize Protestants to near the extend that Protestants seem to feel the need to, along with our scriptural exegesis. You would think it would be you guys hanging with the bible. But it seems like you want to interpret history more than scripture when we get in to these long discussions.

By the way I am interested in what historicans you have read to come to your conclusion that the Catholic Church withheld the scriptures from the people. I am sure the evidence sited will be "They chained Bibles to the Pulpits to keep them from the people", "They wrote the Bible in Latin instead of the native tongue to keep the people from understanding it". They didn't pass out Bibles to everyone. :o . "Doggonit Luke, I wish those scribes could get to copying those Bibles quicker so that I could go on my journey to ephesus. They don't even have to copy half the New Testament because it hasn't been written yet. Crack the whip!" Paul. :lol:

By the way for those keeping score I do not speak of prejudice in an overyly negative sense. Our views are clouded by our upbringing and experiences and what we have read. It is not all 100% correct. The question is to what level does the bias go and how deep is the motivation for coloring the story in an overly negative fashion. I see alot of coloration on this board based primaryily on those who hate the Church giving the historical perspective. I don't see alot of this negativity from the Catholic side of things. It is available.


blessings.
 
James, an apostle? See Gal. 1:19

Hi everyone: Seems to me there might be a couple of ways to see this.

First, a more literal translation might be: "Yet I became acquainted with no one different from the apostles, except James, the brother of the Lord,"
(from the Concordant New Testament), which one could interpret that James was not an apostle. And as it reads, he was the brother (or half-brother) of the Lord.

This view seems to be in line with Paul's reference to James, as a pillar of the church at Jerusalem, never addressing him as an apostle. But, when he spoke to Peter he didn't use the phrase "Apostle Peter" either.

Second, since "an apostle" is "one sent forth" (Young's Concordance), then James could fit that definition since he became a leader of the church at Jerusalem, along with the 12 Apostles. We know from other NT scriptures there were a number listed, other than Paul:

Acts 14:14 "But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it.." RSV
Also see 1 Cor. 9:3-6.

Rom. 16:7 "Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow
prisoners, who are of note among the apostles." KJV

1 Cor. 4:6-9 "For I applied all this to myself and Apollos for your benefit,
brethren....For I think that God has exhibited us apostles as last of all, like men sentenced to death;" RSV

1 Thes.1:1 "Paul, Silvanus and Timothy, to the church of the Thessa-
lonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." and 2:6 "..nor did
we seek glory from men, whether from you or from others, though we
might have made demands as apostles of Christ." RSV

So, James maybe could be called an apostle, but IMO he was not one.

The twelve apostles are special for they are leaders of the ecclesia, church, in Jerusalem, witnessing to the coming Messianic kingdom on earth, where they will sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. See Matt. 19:28.

God bless, Bick
 
vic said:
mutzrein said:
Does it really matter? I mean if we all voted that he was Mary & Joseph's son, would it make any difference to you?
Again, as in another thread, I agree with you that it doesn't really matter. I am not familiar with ANY messianic prophecy that states that the Mother of Messiah must remain a virgin. George, this is your area; correct me if I'm wrong.

I do agree that Scripture says Messiah would be born of a virgin; though this depends on how "almah" is translated in Isaiah 7:14. The word has been translated as Virgin, Young woman, maiden, girl, etc.

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/tex ... rgoryw.htm
I am surprised you brought this up. The Messanic prophecy is that a "virgin shall bear a child".

I've mentioned this on other threads, but it always gets overlooked.

Isaiah 7:14 "So, the Lord Himself shall give you a sign. Behold, the virgin will conceive and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Immanuel."

What's so special about this passage? The virginity of the mother... for how can one conceive a child without intercourse? Hold that surprise in mind for the parallel in the Gospel...


Luke 1:31-34 "And behold! You shall conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call His name JESUS. (32) He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Highest. And the Lord God shall give Him the throne of His father David. (33) And He shall reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there shall be no end. (34) Then Mary said to the angel, How shall this be, since I do not know a man?"

Take notice, the Angel says that Mary WILL conceive. Not that she already has.

Now, why would a woman about to be married express SURPRISE (i.e., "how can this be?") at the Angel's words were it not for some intention to not have children? Married women get pregnant and give birth all the time... no surprise there. Why then would the Angel's words that she WILL conceive be so surprising? Wouldn't Mary just think... "well, duh, married women usually do get pregnant after they've had sexual intercourse...."

Mary doesn't express shock at WHO the Angel says her Son will be, only that she WILL conceive...

I don't understand why this would be surprising to a betrothed woman to hear that she WILL conceive a child?
 
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