Jeff's got a new book...

[Willie T]

... and I think some of you will enjoy it. Here's the idea....

We often say that we must be known for what we are for, and not for what we're against, but in times when deceit is running dangerously rampant, it is just as important to be known for what we're against.

In our day and age, when politically inspired eschatological beliefs, and eschatologically inspired political beliefs are running rampant in several faiths, and literally threatening to destabilize the entire planet, it is important that we be deliberate about spelling out the brand of eschatology which we stand against. In an age when the greatest demonstration of love the earth has ever witnessed - the death of Christ - is portrayed as an act of cosmic vengeance in which God abuses Himself in order to appease Himself, it's vital that we declare what model of the atonement we are for, but also which one we're against. When a God Whom Jesus lovingly called "Abba" is presented as a torturing maniac, whose actions and methods would make even the most vile of serial killers blush, it's important that we not only proclaim God's love, but also that we spell out in explicit detail who and what He is not!

You see, it's not only vital that we proclaim our beliefs but our unbeliefs.

This is why I've decided to release my next book, "The Atheistic Theist: What You Don't Believe About God is as Vital as What You Believe About God." We are living in a day and age when we can no longer simply proclaim our beliefs but our unbeliefs. We owe it to our culture and the world at large to define the "god" we can no longer believe in.

Any God that does not look like Jesus is a god concerning whom we must become atheists.

 

[for_his_glory]

Political correctness will always ignore, twist or manipulate the word of God to try and justify their beliefs. I know I serve a God who would not want anyone to perish, but is it God punishing those who reject them, or is it those who are allowing themselves to pay the consequences for rejecting a God that only wants to love His children and give them the best gifts of His blessings. Did God abuse himself in order to appease himself, no, God gave the best of himself in an unselfish act of love for that is how much he cares for us, but some people just don't get it.

Hosea 4:1 Hear the word of the LORD, ye children of Israel: for the LORD hath a controversy with the inhabitants of the land, because there is no truth, nor mercy, nor knowledge of God in the land.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hosea 4:7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

Hosea 4:14 I will not punish your daughters when they commit whoredom, nor your spouses when they commit adultery: for themselves are separated with whores, and they sacrifice with harlots: therefore the people that doth not understand shall fall.
(Read the whole of Chapter 4 as it shows why those have unbelief and reject truth. It speaks of Israel, but yet speaks to all as all of us were made in the image of God.)

 

[Willie T]

This can be a very interesting thing to look at.

What's the most remarkable thing about God? I think it is that He consistently accepts those that reject Him, instead of punishing them as they might have expected. That trait of God's..... that He forgives even those who murdered Him... is striking. And, it goes against almost everything we preach about. (All the "Woe is you, you're gonna get yours!") The prodigal son's elder brother was sure mad about it... as were the workers who had labored all day long, only to see newcomers getting paid the same money they were.

This can be taken just about anywhere you might want to go with it, but I will just leave it with what I have said.

 

[for_his_glory]

It is a controversial topic for sure and can go in all sorts of directions as in how one is of faith and one is not. Interesting to see how this plays out.

 

[Willie T]

It is a controversial topic for sure and can go in all sorts of directions as in how one is of faith and one is not. Interesting to see how this plays out.

Jeff's last book was quite long, and a little too deep for some people. He promised to make this one shorter and simpler. But he definitely believes that if we see anyone but Jesus in our depictions of God, then we are not seeing the God of the Bible.

 

[for_his_glory]

He makes a good point there seeing that Jesus is the very Spirit of God and if we see Jesus we see the Father for Jesus is the great I AM

 

[Willie T]

He makes a good point there seeing that Jesus is the very Spirit of God and if we see Jesus we see the Father for Jesus is the great I AM

I agree. But the problem arises because most of us, (though we can't really admit it), think of Jesus and God as two distinctly different personages and personalities.

We are somehow able to speak out of one side of our mouths, the words that they are one and the same, claiming that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever... while whispering out the other side of that same mouth that He somehow changed from a vindictive monster in the beginning to a gentle Messiah in the New Testament.

It's stupid. It's dumb. And it's totally contradictory, but we refuse to budge from that impossibly insane concept.

 

[jasonc]

I agree. But the problem arises because most of us, (though we can't really admit it), think of Jesus and God as two distinctly different personages and personalities.

We are somehow able to speak out of one side of our mouths, the words that they are one and the same, claiming that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever... while whispering out the other side of that same mouth that He somehow changed from a vindictive monster in the beginning to a gentle Messiah in the New Testament.

It's stupid. It's dumb. And it's totally contradictory, but we refuse to budge from that impossibly insane concept.

he was most merciful in the tanach. if the church would care to read and teach that. I don't see the YHWH any different from then and now.there was no sin offering for adultery and yet God forgave david and the same with murder.

 

[Willie T]

he was most merciful in the tanach. if the church would care to read and teach that. I don't see the YHWH any different from then and now.there was no sin offering for adultery and yet God forgave david and the same with murder.

We can't just take a few selected sections. Throughout most of the OT, the Atheists have called it right...... The God we worship is painted there as a pretty bloodthirsty deity, much like the other gods most of the old tribes worshiped.

Sorry, but it really IS all written out on the pages of the OT for us to read.

 

[jasonc]

We can't just take a few selected sections. Throughout most of the OT, the Atheists have called it right...... The God we worship is painted there as a pretty bloodthirsty deity, much like the other gods most of the old tribes worshiped.

Sorry, but it really IS all written out on the pages of the OT for us to read.

I don't deny that. never said that he wasn't.only that jesus also will come back in his timing to deal with sinners and men will die. its also said in the nt that herod was curse and died of worms. also that jesus did say he would kill jezebel and also ad 70's violence was mentioned. we both can agree that was of god and much jewish blood was shed. their fault. they could have fled and left. the atheist must answer that they have blood and also look to history and see that man never will have it in him to be good and non violent. they just tend to have faith and ignore that and then history repeats itself as the utopian/tyrannical states happen all again.

ie communism
the older communes in Greece with pythagorus being one them leaders

 

[Willie T]

I'm not, in the least, arguing that "man" didn't ask for (and received) the old covenant and its consequences. But if we look at Ebola, or Aids. or hurricanes, or whatever, and see God enacting vengeance through those things today, then we are NOT seeing the God of the Bible, since He abolished that old covenant, and deals with us now as He specified in the new covenant.

BTW, I'm pretty sure Herod lived during the old covenant.....

 

[jasonc]

I'm not, in the least, arguing that "man" didn't ask for (and received) the old covenant and it's consequences. But if we look at Ebola, or Aids. or hurricanes, or whatever, and see God enacting vengeance through those things today, then we are NOT seeing the God of the Bible, since He abolished that old covenant, and deals with us now as He specified in the new covenant.

since we cant know for sure that god is judging man in that nature its best no to say. there is no promise prior to the return that there wouldn't be diseases and pestilence. so to me those are just that. part of the curse. god said he would judge the world at the same time. all the nations at his return and then the dead at their resurrection.

 

[Willie T]

since we cant know for sure that god is judging man in that nature its best no to say. there is no promise prior to the return that there wouldn't be diseases and pestilence. so to me those are just that. part of the curse. god said he would judge the world at the same time. all the nations at his return and then the dead at their resurrection.

Yes, ongoing evil in a fallen world.................... but NOT, as so many want to try and claim, God's specific judgment in 2014 for specific and particular acts and situations.

 

[jasonc]

Yes, ongoing evil in a fallen world.................... but NOT, as so many want to try and claim, God's specific judgment in 2014 for specific and particular acts and situations.

yet many, and I wasn't any better, do believe that god judges man or cities. the problem with that is the Christians died in that too. some say 9-11 is a judgement.

 

[Willie T]

yet many, and I wasn't any better, do believe that god judges man or cities. the problem with that is the Christians died in that too. some say 9-11 is a judgement.

"Some" say that the sun rises and sets.... but it doesn't... the Earth just happens to rotate. "Some" will say just about anything at some time or other.

 

[jasonc]

we are taught not to critique any believer in the pulpit or what not if he has the bible to back it up and also if there is the spirit. guilty of that.

 

[Willie T]

we are taught not to critique any believer in the pulpit or what not if he has the bible to back it up and also if there is the spirit. guilty of that.

I'm afraid I am of the opinion that not that many men are really called of God to be standing behind that pulpit. Frankly, it's often just a job that someone got because they had a degree, and the church corporation needed to fill a position. And the Bible can be used to "back up" almost ANY crazy doctrine that comes down the pike, if the user has that as his aim.

 

[jasonc]

I'm afraid I am of the opinion that not that many men are really called of God to be standing behind that pulpit. Frankly, it's often just a job that someone got because they had a degree, and the church corporation needed to fill a position. And the Bible can be used to "back up" almost ANY crazy doctrine that comes down the pike, if the user has that as his aim.

sad but im beginning to see that and god has allowed me to falter a time or two to see that im not for that.

 

[for_his_glory]

Deuteronomy Chapters 27 and 28 are all about Gods proclamation of the curses and the promised blessings for obedience. God laid it out, man chose. It is not a vengeful God, but a loving God that He would that none should perish, 2Peter 3:9. Read Nahum Chapter 1 as God is only revengeful on His enemies. We pay the consequences for our own actions as on one hand we are blessed and on the other hand we are cursed. Ignorance will not be an excuse when judgement comes for the Gospel of Christ will be preached in all the world and then the end comes, Matthew 24:14. As Joshua said, "choose you this day whom you will serve".

Nahum 1:2 God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.
Nahum 1:3 The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.


Joshua 24:14 Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.
Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

 

[Willie T]

Here is what I mean about God seen as Jesus appeared. (Yeah, from Jeff)

When one traces the origins of the Levitical priesthood, and of the Levites peculiar place among the other tribes, one will find that their being singled out is always connected to an act of violence in the name of righteousness. For instance, in one tradition (Gen 49:5-7), it seems to have been the murder of Hamor and Shechem, spoken of in Genesis 34, that caused them to be singled out as a Tribe, and in this instance their scattering and lack of inheritance is spoken of negatively. However, in Exodus 32:25-29, we read of the Levites as being the only tribe who rallied to Moses' side when he descended from Sinai and found the newly freed nation worshiping a golden calf. Not only did they show their devotion, but they, at Moses' command, went throughout the camp and slaughtered their family, friends and countrymen - 3,000 in all.

In each tradition it is an act of religiously motivated violence that singled the Levites out as the priestly tribe.

On the day of Pentecost, however, a glorious reversal occurs! You see, the Jewish feast of Shavuot, or Pentecost, was an acknowledgment and celebration of the giving of the Law at Sinai, where Moses ascended and then descended with the stone tablets in His hand. In the case of Pentecost, however, we have Jesus who ascended, and the Spirit who descends. In the wake of the Spirit's coming, we find that Peter and the Apostles stand and proclaim the Gospel, resulting in 3,000 believing and receiving life. Now, there very well could have 3,109 people who believed for all we know, but the writer goes out of his way to either round up or down to give us a number of "around 3,000". Why? Because the early Church understood that in Christ a transition had occurred. The Levitical priesthood, in every tradition, was established through an act of violence, but the Priesthood of Christ, a Priesthood said to be in the order of Melchizedek, was established through an act of peace and reconciliation. Instead of 3,000 losing their lives, 3,000 were given life. The subversive symbolism is obvious and beautiful.

In Hebrews 7, we're given a detailed description of the transition from the Levitical priesthood, a priesthood founded upon violence, and the Melchizedek Priesthood of Christ. Melchizedek, the writer is careful to point out, was called the King of Salem, which translates to "King of Peace". Why is this significant? Because in 1st century Jewish lore, some sects in Judaism had exalted the Biblical figure of Melchizedek to a Messianic position, and spoke of him as one who would come and execute vengeance against God and Israel's enemies (see fragment 11Q13, or Melchizedek's Jubilee). So to many, the name Melchizedek brought violence and vengeance to mind, but the true Melchizedek Priesthood was one that was founded upon peace, not vengeance!

Christ's Priesthood is not one that says "Whoever is on the Lord’s side will live, but whoever is not will die!", as did Levis’, but it is one that declares that God loves, accepts, forgives and serves even His enemies. This not only flies in the face of 1st century religion, but 21st century religion as well. For we have constructed a Jesus who is out to get the bad guys and punish those He (which really means "we") deem as being evil. The real Jesus, however - the Jesus of the Gospels - declares that the Father's perfection lies in His love for enemies and His willingness to do good for those who would do Him wrong.

You see, Christ is a priest in the order of Melchizedek, not Levi. When Levi reigns, 3,000 die, when Christ reigns 3,000 live. When Levi rules there is bloodshed and violence, but when Christ rules there is reconciliation and forgiveness!