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Jesus Christ is the Sabbath

lovely said:
MM,

Your post is true, it was not included because it was changed.

Blessings
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Sputnik: So, all we have to do now then is to convince those who believe that Sunday is the Sabbath of the 4th-commandment (and many do) that it's all absolutely unnecessary.
 
Who's we? It doesn't matter to me if people want to worship God on Sunday or Saturday or any day! I'm just glad they're worshipping God! What I do object to is when people say that if we DON'T worship God on a particular day then they are disobeying God. This is incorrect and goes against scripture to judge others in keeping a holy day.
 
Merry Menagerie said:
Sputnik Boy - I'm sure the apostles etc weren't going around murdering people either but that commandment and all the other commandments EXCEPT ONE!!!! seem to be covered in the new covenant. Doesn't that strike you as rather odd? Come on now...surely something so important would have been CRYSTAL CLEAR...but it's not.
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Sputnik: But it IS crystal clear, Menag. Every individual was asked to love God with all of their heart, soul and mind. This means that (1) they will have no other God (2) they will not worship any other God (3) they will not profane the name of God. They will display their love for God in a visible way so that their light shines out brightly to others.

There is also a (4) that requires the same obedience as the rest. It was included with the other 3. Obedience to this one, however, seems to be the toughest for the majority of Christians to accept. Saturday, for most, is a very inconvenient day to be 'a Sabbath'. Instead, most Christians (including those who insist there being NO NEED for 'a Sabbath') swear absolute allegiance to a day that was instituted by MAN. Do you regard Sunday as a sacred day, menag ...I mean, in all honestly?

Again, and please acknowledge this as a fact because it IS a fact ...the mainstream Christian Church, generally speaking, DOES BELIEVE THAT SUNDAY IS THE SABBATH. They believe that they are UPHOLDING THE SABBATH OF THE 4th-COMMANDMENT. Why do you keep ignoring the fact that, if Sabbatarians have got it wrong, then so too have the majority of mainstream Christians? Perhaps even you and others on this thread?

While you may not agree with me on this issue, can you at least recognize and acknowledge the inconsistency involved here that I have a problem with?
 
SB,

I would say that Sunday is not it either. The Bible tells us that we should gather in worship, but it does not tell us of a specific day to do this. I imagine I gather on Sunday, most of the time, because it is when my church does. I have also been known to gather on Saturday, Wednesday, and even Friday. I do not know if you agree, or if you are being sarcastic, but I do agree that many do believe that we MUST gather on Sunday. I would like to see Scripture supporting this. The earlier believers did gather on the first day of the week, and it is recorded, but that does not qualify as a command, though many churches use it as a model. I do not think we can say any specific day is commanded, especially when you consider the Scriptures that support that the commandments to observe holy days, and the Sabbath, are no longer needed because they are a shadow of Christ, and that each one is to judge for themselves.

Blessings.
 
I'm sorry but the 4th commandment is not made crystal clear as one we have to follow. The others are...that one is not!!! There is a reason for it though and the reason is that we enter the rest via the Holy Spirit so that commandment is obeyed by the simple action of being filled with the HOly Spirit of Christ.

Again, and please acknowledge this as a fact because it IS a fact ...the mainstream Christian Church, generally speaking, DOES BELIEVE THAT SUNDAY IS THE SABBATH. They believe that they are UPHOLDING THE SABBATH OF THE 4th-COMMANDMENT. Why do you keep ignoring the fact that, if Sabbatarians have got it wrong, then so too have the majority of mainstream Christians? Perhaps even you and others on this thread?
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But I don't care that others wish to keep the sabbath...whatever day!!! We are told not to judge others by this! Simple as that! So I don't judge them for it...if they think it's important..more power to them. I, however, do not! Therefore I am not to be judged either.

As for what 'day' I uphold? I don't uphold any day...so there you go! I worship Jesus everyday and I walk in his rest 24/7. Any religious observances, in my opinion, are nothing more than religious observances...instituted by men to make them feel closer to God.

I personally don't know how much more closer you can be to God when his residence is in your heart...but to each their own I say :)
 
you forgot the best part -- the context! Let me quote it for you in its context:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets: I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

How true that is. For not one jot nor one tittle did pass away TILL ALL WAS FULFILLED.

And all WAS fulfilled! Jesus fulfilled all there was to be fulfilled -- and that was ALL of it. For when Jesus was hanging on the cross he said, "It is finished!" Meaning that "all was fulfilled"!

The Law of Moses was finsihed and replaced by the Law of Jesus. It was finished in the sense that Jesus Christ fulfilled it right down to the last jot and tittle and therefore "everything is accomplished."

Everything! The whole enchilada. Including the Ten Commandments! Including the Fourth Commandment! Including the Sabbath Commandment!
 
servant_2000 said:
you forgot the best part -- the context! Let me quote it for you in its context:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets: I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

How true that is. For not one jot nor one tittle did pass away TILL ALL WAS FULFILLED.

And all WAS fulfilled! Jesus fulfilled all there was to be fulfilled -- and that was ALL of it. For when Jesus was hanging on the cross he said, "It is finished!" Meaning that "all was fulfilled"!

The Law of Moses was finsihed and replaced by the Law of Jesus. It was finished in the sense that Jesus Christ fulfilled it right down to the last jot and tittle and therefore "everything is accomplished."

Everything! The whole enchilada. Including the Ten Commandments! Including the Fourth Commandment! Including the Sabbath Commandment!
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Sputnik: Absolutely not true! To suggest such a thing is ridiculous and somewhat irresponsible. It's this kind of preaching that leads to beliefs such as, "As long as one loves God with all their heart, soul, and mind ...one can do as they please." Someone on this board said exactly that. And, we're seeing evidence of this kind of 'nonexistent' or 'lukewarm' Christianity within our churches today. What are you promoting here, servant? Do you REALLY find obedience to God to be an issue to be argued against?

Matthew 5:18-20
"I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. ANYONE who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches OTHERS (emphasis mine) to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever PRACTICES and TEACHES (emphasis mine) these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Fot I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." Jesus

So, what is going on here ...what exactly is Jesus commenting on? Is He REALLY saying that the moral principles applying to God and neighbor will be done away with at some future time? Is He ACTUALLY implying that those in the OT were once saved by keeping the Law but those from now on are to be saved by grace which, in effect, cancels out the requirement for one's keeping of the Law? The following is a compilation of notes taken from the NIV Study Bible that I happen to agree with.

Jesus fulfilled the Law in giving the Law its full meaning. He emphasized its underlying principles and total commitment to it rather than external acknowledgment and obedience. Jesus is not speaking against observing all the requirements of the Law, but against hypocritical, Pharisaical legalism. Such legalism was not the keeping of all details of the Law but the hollow sham of keeping laws externally, to gain merit before God, while breaking them inwardly.

Jesus repudiates the Pharisees' interpretation of the Law and their view of righteousness by works. He preaches a life of righteousness that comes only through faith in Him and His work. In the verses that follow, Jesus contrasts this life of righteousness with six examples of Pharisaical externalism. He is calling for a conscientious choice.

Jesus establishes the validity of the OT Law; however, it is the INTERPRETATION of that Law Jesus is questioning. It's between externalistic interpretation of the rabbinic tradition on the one hand, and Jesus' correct interpretation of the Law on the other. Please, anyone, tell me WHO in the OT was saved by keeping the Law and not by the gift of grace. In other words, what has changed in 'the criteria' for salvation in the NT other than the methods used in regard to the sacrificial system?
 
Sputnik: Absolutely not true! To suggest such a thing is ridiculous and somewhat irresponsible. It's this kind of preaching that leads to beliefs such as, "As long as one loves God with all their heart, soul, and mind ...one can do as they please." Someone on this board said exactly that. And, we're seeing evidence of this kind of 'nonexistent' or 'lukewarm' Christianity within our churches today. What are you promoting here, servant? Do you REALLY find obedience to God to be an issue to be argued against?
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Oh Sputnik - I'm really disappointed in you. You are saying that it's ridiculous but the bible says something TOTALLY DIFFERENT!!. The obedience of God is Christ's department. And we are to walk in Christ. When we walk in Christ we are relying on Christ's obedience for OUR obedience. Get it?

You said that someone said that as long as one loves God we can do what we please? Well that's not true. When one loves God we do was HE pleases...not what we please. We don't murder people NOT because of what the ten commandments say but rather because we love them. We don't worship any other God NOT because of the ten commandments say but because we love God. We walk in the rest that Jesus poured out NOT because it's in the ten commandments but because we love God. You see? We CAN'T do what we please...because the driving force for our good works comes from God. Even when we sin, we are convicted and chastised by God and we then come back inline with the Spirit of Christ by walking in his spirit NOT obeying any law..but WALKING IN CHRIST'S OBEDIENCE!!!

That's what's wrong with some people is that they haven't quite grasped what 'freedom' is yet. They haven't quite got why Christ died on the Cross and what he really means when he says "it is finished". Instead they choose to fall from Grace and continue to follow the law instead of just walking in the Spirit like God would have them do. The sad thing about that is, when one chooses to follow ANY OF THE LAW they HAVE to follow them all and follow them PERFECTLY. Which, in our human strength cannot be done no matter how hard one tries. YOU WILL ALWAYS FAIL. Wouldn't it be much simpler and liberating to just be done with the law once and for all and actually have faith in Christ's FINISHED work on the cross for our righeousness? That way the WHOLE law is fulfilled PERFECTLY in us and we don't have to worry when we stuff up or make a mistake on occasion. Rather we can live in liberty and freedom in the Spirit.
 
SputnikBoy said:
servant_2000 said:
you forgot the best part -- the context! Let me quote it for you in its context:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets: I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

How true that is. For not one jot nor one tittle did pass away TILL ALL WAS FULFILLED.

And all WAS fulfilled! Jesus fulfilled all there was to be fulfilled -- and that was ALL of it. For when Jesus was hanging on the cross he said, "It is finished!" Meaning that "all was fulfilled"!

The Law of Moses was finsihed and replaced by the Law of Jesus. It was finished in the sense that Jesus Christ fulfilled it right down to the last jot and tittle and therefore "everything is accomplished."

Everything! The whole enchilada. Including the Ten Commandments! Including the Fourth Commandment! Including the Sabbath Commandment!
Click to expand...

Sputnik: Absolutely not true! To suggest such a thing is ridiculous and somewhat irresponsible. It's this kind of preaching that leads to beliefs such as, "As long as one loves God with all their heart, soul, and mind ...one can do as they please." Someone on this board said exactly that. And, we're seeing evidence of this kind of 'nonexistent' or 'lukewarm' Christianity within our churches today. What are you promoting here, servant? Do you REALLY find obedience to God to be an issue to be argued against?

Matthew 5:18-20
"I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. ANYONE who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches OTHERS (emphasis mine) to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever PRACTICES and TEACHES (emphasis mine) these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Fot I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." Jesus
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Taking the WORD for face falue...

here is a few question's for you.
Verse 19 says "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the LEAST IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN:"

Qusetion #1
I do not mind being called Least in the Kingdom of Heaven do you?
Or are you Great in the Kingdom of Heaven because YOU DO THEM AND TEACH THEM?

Or is it Jesus alone who does them?????

Question #2
What Law is this text refering to?
 
Sputnik you argue that as long as heaven and earth last the law will continue. Your own argument proves that the law is not eternal; for Jesus said, "Heaven and earth shall pass away" (Luke 21:33). But Jesus did not say that the law would continue till heaven and earth had passed away. The idea is that heaven and earth would sooner pass away than one letter of the law fail in being fulfilled. "It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail" (Luke 16:17). That is the idea. Not the length of time the law was to continue, but the certainty that it would not fail to be fulfilled. Christ said it would continue till fulfilled. This proves that it would be fulfilled and pass away some time. But when is the time?

Christ plainly says, 'I am come to fulfill it.' This Paul rightly concludes that "Christ is the end of the law."
"Fulfill: To complete; to fill up."â€â€Webster. "To bring to a close, end, inish,complete." â€â€Greenfield. Then, the law ended with Christ. "Heaven and earth shall sooner perish than one iota or one tittle of the law shall perish without attaining to itsend." â€â€Macknight, Campbell, Doddridge. Exactly. Christ says He came to fulfill the law. Did He?

Hear Him after His resurrection: "These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the Psalms, concerning me" Luke 24:44.

"And when they had fulfilled all that was written of Him, they took Him down from the tree" Acts 13:29.

The law was fulfilled and ended at the cross my friend.

your making a tremendous blunder when you confine "the law" in Matthew 5:17,18 to the Decalog.

"The law" includes all the law of Moses. The "law and the prophets" is a term that applies to the entire Old Testament. All commentaries agree on this. But the Scriptural proof is abundant.

"Witnessed by the law and the prophets" (Romans 3:21).

"The reading of the law and the prophets" (Acts 13:15).

"This is the law and the prophets" (Matthew 7:12).
"All the prophets and the law" (Matthew 11:13).
"All the law and the prophets" (Matthew 22:40).
"They have Moses and the prophets.... If they hear not Moses and the prophets" (Luke 16:29,31).
"Written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets . . . concerning Me" (Luke 24:44).
"Written in the law and in the prophets" (Acts 24:14).

"Him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write" (John 1:45).

"Moses and the prophets" and "the law and the prophets" are the same thing. "The law" is defined as "Moses," "the law of Moses." And "the law and the prophets" reach their fulfillment in Christ. This is the whole Old Testament.

The Adventist argument on Matthew 5: 17, 18 will make circumcision and all Moses' law binding to all time and eternity.

This law was a "shadow" of Christ's atonement and redemptive blessings (Hebrews 10:1-3). Its sacrifices, blood, Passover, sin offerings, altars, etc., all pointed to Him.Its sanctuary pointed forward to his greater house; the church; its Sabbath to the sweet soul rest He gives. When Christ the substance came to earth, the shadowâ€â€lawâ€â€vanished away.

"The law and the prophets were until John" (Luke 16:16).

His ministry was "the beginning of the gospel" (Mark 1 :1-3). When the law reached its fulfillment in Christ, it was not necessary to destroy it. Therefore He says, "I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."

"It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come" (Galatians 3:19). "To thy seed, which is Christ" (verse 16). This so clearly teaches that the law was but a temporary institution, to continue in force only until the promised seedâ€â€Christâ€â€should come, that there is no appeal from it. The coming of Christâ€â€His deathâ€â€is the date, then, when the law expired. There was no necessity to destroy it in order to make it null and void; for its limit ended when it was fulfilled in Christ, and of necessity it became dead. This shows the utter fallacy of your position position. Christ fulfilled the law, and it passed away after having served its purpose.

"Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances" (Eph. 2 :15).

The law was a partition wall between the Jews and the Gentiles. Christ broke down this wall, by abolishing "the law of commandments," around which clustered all the ordinances and ceremonies of the Old Testament. This was done "that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (verse 16). The date of the abolition of the law is placed at the cross. "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; and having spoiled principalities and powers, He made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days" (Col. 2:14-16). That which was nailed to the cross included the Sabbath. The whole system ended at the cross. Since that, "if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law" (Gal. 5:18).

"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace" (vs. 4). This applies forcibly to all Saturday-keepers.

"Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should brine forth fruit unto God"

But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter" (Rom. 7:1-4,6).

Here is a plain lesson. Who can misunderstand it? Paul uses the law of matrimony to teach the abolition of the Mosaic system. That first husband was "the law"; the wife was the churchâ€â€Israel. But the first husband died; the law was abolished. It was "nailed to the cross," then buried. In recent years the Sabbatarians hunted its grave, and dug it up. All they found was the skeleton. This they stood up, but it fell down. So they have invented many props by which they expect to keep it standing.

But by the eternal truth your props must fall and your idolized, decayed system of abolished "shadows" the lawâ€â€be buried in the same grave in which Jesus laid it nearly 2000 years ago.

You grope in the smoke of Sinai, while we stand in the light of Zion.

O Adventist friend, forsake your system, and accept the truth, which will make you free.
 
I really don't want to take the time to address your previous and rather lengthy post, servant. I would, however, like to draw your attention to the word 'fulfill'. You say that the definition of 'fulfill' in the context that we've discussed the word previously means, basically, 'death to the law'.

Strong's Concordance gives a number of possible definitions for the same word. If you have a concordance you will note, however, that the word 'fulfill' (4137: Greek 'pleroo') is used only six times. There are OTHER definitions of the word 'fulfill' but only SIX that refer to 'pleroo' in the NT. These six texts are:

Matthew 3:15 - But Jesus answered and said to him (John), "Permit it to be so, now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill (pleroo) all righteousness."

Matthew 5:17 - "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill (pleroo)."

Philippians 2:2 - "...fulfill (pleroo) my joy by being like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind."

Colossians 1:25 - "...of which I become a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill (pleroo) the word of God."

Colossians 4:17 - '...And say to Archippus, "Take heed to the ministry which you have received in the Lord, that you may fulfill (pleroo) it."

2 Thessalonians 1:11 - "Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill (pleroo) all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power."

In all of these instances, the word 'fulfill' (pleroo) does not AT ALL equate to 'bringing to an end'. In context, the word 'fulfill' (pleroo) in ALL cases means, 'to satisfy', 'to execute', 'to verify', 'to fully preach', or, 'to accomplish' as in 'to carry out'. Please check the above definitions with your concordance (assuming that you have one) and see for yourself the authenticity of my above comments.

Any chance of a "WOW" from you, menag? ;-)
 
No because your definitions fit perfectly with the premise that Christ 'carried out' the law. He FULFILLED ALL righteousness. I personally have faith in Christ's 'carried out' of the law cos he would have done it perfectly...ONCE!

Yay for me!!!
 
Merry Menagerie said:
No because your definitions fit perfectly with the premise that Christ 'carried out' the law. He FULFILLED ALL righteousness. I personally have faith in Christ's 'carried out' of the law cos he would have done it perfectly...ONCE!

Yay for me!!!
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Sputnik: No cigar, Menag. You seem to be shifting your loyalties here. We've been hearing over and over that the text, "I have not come to abolish them (the Law and the Prophets) but to fulfill them (Matthew 5:17)", as meaning that Jesus had put an end to the Law. This is clearly not the case. While you're 'yay-ing' for the CORRECT definition of this text, you're on the other hand 'wow-ing' for the other definition.

So, where DO you stand in regard to this scripture? Was Jesus our exemplary for having kept the Law or was He saying, in effect, "From now on, you NT guys don't need to bother yourselves with trivialities such as obedience" ...?
 
He fulfilled it! Being the only perfect person, fulfilling it perfectly ONCE for all of us. So that in believing in his finished work we are made righteous though His obedience.

You don't seem to understand what we were saved from sputnik. You're still holding onto the "WE have to obey" thing! Well we can't!!! That's why we need Jesus. Can't you see? Through Adam's disobedience we were ALL UNDER SIN through Christ's obedience we are all made righteous. We can't do anything! We don't have to do anything other than have faith in Christ. IF we had to continue to obey through our own strength then Jesus died for nothing!!!! And YOU WILL FAIL! Do you understand that? YOUR obedience is NOTHING....CHRIST'S obedience is EVERYTHING!!

The whole law is obeyed!!! It's obeyed ONCE!!! can't you see? He did it perfectly BECAUSE WE CANNOT!!!! Therefore we are made righteous..by Christ's obedience!

If you, sputnik, still feel the need to continue on in the 'law' then Jesus' death and resurrection means nothing to you and you have fallen from Grace! Because you choose to forfeit God's grace and get to heaven by your own merit and works and not Christ's. How sad for you!

Get up...and start walking in Christ's righteousness and cease from your empty works and labour today!
 
"Acts of the Apostle Steve of Martin:"

Chapter 15 verse 24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved STEVE of Martin...
For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well."

To which Steve of Martin added "So, that's all you need. That, . . . and THIS Sabbath observance. Meats offered to idols, blood, strangled stuff, fornication, and the Sabbath. And that's ALL YOU NEED. That, and, oh, and the dietary laws. Meats, blood, strangled, fornication, Sabbath, dietary laws. And that's ALL YOU NEED. Plus tithing. SO, meats blood strangled fornication sabbath dietary laws and TITHING. And that's ALL YOU NEED. And circumcision of course. That's really the most fundamental covenant. So...meats blood strangled fornication sabbath kosher tithing circumcision. And that's ALL you need...


31Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation...[?]


I don't think God wants us to be "Jerks", unable to leave the old house without a handful of goodies.
 
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