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Bible Study Jesus' Crucifixion

G

Gendou Ikari

Guest
I was wondering when Jesus was crucified? Not the exact date like September 25 or anything like that but more in relation to, "was he crucified before or after passover." I've heard some people say that the synoptic gospels say that he was crucified after passover and The Gospel According to John says that he was crucified on the passover.
 
I'll tell you what I believe, but you will hear one thousand and one different points of view why each person feels they are correct.

I take my views from the feasts of Jehovah--- the feast days according to Paul were "shadows of things to come". They were prophetic observances held by Israel.

Jesus was crucified the day of Nissan 14, the same day as Passover. As a matter of fact, he died when the Passover lambs were being slaughtered near sundown on a Wednesday.

He was interred in time for the next Jewish day to commence (on a Thursday) to fulfill the feast of Unleavened Bread. He was "in the heart of the Earth" (interred) for "three days and three nights" so that he arose by Saturday sundown as Nissan 18 commenced--- that's a full 72 hours in the tomb as he said he would be (Matthew 12:40). This fulfilled the feast of Firstfruits.

God is a mathematical God where the Bible is replete with numerical symbolism. Again, you will hear theory after theory, but when one takes a hard look at all the facts, no other "timeline" fits numerically so well as this one. It fulfills the feast days and satisfies the time involved. Anything else either contradicts the time involved, skips a feast day (making God's prophetic Word to no effect) or whatever.
 
Aviv 14th.

Hebrew texts, Aramiac texts, and Talmud Bavli. Sanhedrin 43 all testify that יהושׁע was hung on Passover before Unleavened Bread.
 
Actually the name mentioned in the Talmud is Yeshu not Yehoshua as you have stated. Furthermore the name is mentioned in connection with Rabbi Yehoshuah ben Pirachiah who lived around 100 years before the supposed time of Jesus.

Your timeline fits in well with that of John but is in contradiction of the timeline given in the synoptic gospels which place the crucifixtion on the 15th, not the 14th of Nissan. This contradiction, as far as I am aware has never been credibly explained, if in fact you believe that all of the authors of these gospels were eyewitness to these events.
 
einstein said:
Actually the name mentioned in the Talmud is Yeshu not Yehoshua as you have stated.

I was just using his true name. I did not "state" that the name "YAhoshua" appeared in the Talmud.

Furthermore the name is mentioned in connection with Rabbi Yehoshuah ben Pirachiah who lived around 100 years before the supposed time of Jesus.

Possibly. The information is debatable, however. This is not absolutely conclusive. There are two sides to the story.

Your timeline fits in well with that of John but is in contradiction of the timeline given in the synoptic gospels which place the crucifixtion on the 15th, not the 14th of Nissan. This contradiction, as far as I am aware has never been credibly explained, if in fact you believe that all of the authors of these gospels were eyewitness to these events.

I disagree. Actually, the gospels are quite clear.

Matthew 26:17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to יהושׁע, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?

The Greek word for "first" is protos, which can mean "before", depending on context.

The words "day" and "feast" do not appear in the Greek. The first day of Unleavened Bread is the 15th of Aviv, which is the day AFTER Passover, not before. I'm sure the writers were not silly enough to not know when the feasts were held.

And to quote a teacher of mine:

"Every orthodox rabbi even to this day has a Passover before the Passover, as a training lesson. Today this practice is seen in the Lubavitch movement when they gather the night before Pesach for what they call the Moshiach's Supper, looking forward to the coming of Moshiach. Some consider it a Pesach even though it is officially just a preparation. Yahshua looked and acted as if it were the Passover, without it actually being the Passover. This seeming contradiction is fully understood from a Hebraic mindset."

- Rabbi Moshe Yoseph Konuichowsky

The Passover must be killed on the 14th. It is not killed on the first day of Unleavened Bread. I'm sure you know this. I just want to hit the point home.
 
Gendou Ikari:

You see what I mean? It's starting. 1001 theories. And they are only that. However, God has His calendar and timeframe. Not because I said it. It was around long before I was. :-D
 
date of crucifixtion

Wavy: With all due respect, I must disagree with the analysis you have posted. All 3 synoptic gospels talk of first day of unleavened bread (although Luke leaves out the word "first") when the passover lamb is to be sacrificed for the passover seder. This would be performed before sundown on the 14th day of Nissan. ALL synoptic gospels then state that Jesus sat down to the meal "in the evening" (mark 14;17). The meal is described with wine, bread,(matzot) and a hymn. This conforms with the seder, which Jesus, who respected the Mosaic law, would have kept.

The seder is started after sundown on the 14th of Nissan. The series of events that follow in the synoptic gospels clearly indicate that the crucifixtion then took place the following day on the 15th of Nissan.

Your statement from Matthew 26:17 can only be interpreted in 2 ways:
1) The Greek word used here really should be defined as "before" which would make sense since they were making preparation for the passover which had not yet taken place, OR

2) The author of Matthew was completely ignorant of Jewish customs since by defining the first day as the 15th, the seder would have been completed the night before. You make your choice.

Your quote from that "rabbi" holds no authority whatsover.When I googled him the information that came up was that he is a "rabbi" of a messianic Jewish congregation and whatever he states has no binding authority at all. Although I am not a Lubavitcher, I do know many orthodox Jews and not one is aware of the so-called Mashiach's supper referred to in your post.

Finally, let me ask you this. In John, when Judas leaves the supper with the moneybag, the apostles immediatly reach the conclusion that he is going to purchase food for the seder Jn(13:29). Why would Judas be going off to buy the food for the passover seder meal, when according to the 1st three gospels, THEY HAD JUST EATEN THAT MEAL?
 
crucifixtion

BTW, I emailed Chabad Lubavitch concerning your "rabbi's" claim about a pre-seder like seder. As I suspected- there is no such practice,nada, zip. :oops:
 
I remember reading about how the essenes, a jewish sect of the time, had a different calender which would make the date of the passover occur on a different date. Thus it could have been celebrated on different days by different Jews in the same year. I don't know if any Jews would have celebrated it twice, somehow, just to be on the safe side?

Myself, when I did look into this, and I don't remember all the points of it, I think I sided with John's and somehow interpreted the synoptics to agree with it. But unfortuanatly, I don't remember the details. But probably it is better to side with the synoptics, as a lot of John's gospel is considered to have been written later then the synoptics.

Here's the relavent info on the days if anyone cared to try and figure it out.

Postexilic Observance. After the return of the Jews from captivity the celebration of the Passover, like that of other institutions, became more regular and systematic; and its laws, rites, manners, and customs have been faithfully transmitted to us. These were the same as those in the time of Christ and His apostles and are, therefore, of the utmost importance and interest to us in understanding the NT. We give the various practices in connection with the days of the festival on which they were respectively observed.
1. The Great Sabbath (10th Nisan). The Sabbath immediately preceding the Passover, it is so called because, according to tradition, the 10th of Nisan, when the paschal lamb was to be selected, originally fell on the Sabbath. In later legislation the animal was not required to be set aside four days beforehand, yet the Sabbath was used for the instruction of the people in the duties of this great festival. In addition to the regular ritual, special prayers bearing on the redemption from Egypt, the love of God to Israel, and Israel's obligation to keep the Passover, were prescribed for that Sabbath. <Malachi 3:1-4:6> was read as the lesson of the day, and discourses were delivered explaining the laws and domestic duties connected with the festival. This is likely the Sabbath referred to in <John 19:31>.
2. The 13th Nisan. On the evening of the 13th Nisan, which, until that of the 14th, was called the "preparation for the Passover" <John 19:14>, every head of a family searched for and collected by the light of a candle all the leaven. Before beginning the search, he pronounced the following benediction: "Blessed art thou, O Lord our God, King of the universe, who has sanctified us with thy commandments, and hast enjoined us to remove the leaven." After the search he said, "Whatever leaven remains in my possession which I cannot see, behold, it is null, and accounted as the dust of the earth."
3. The 14th Nisan. This day, called until the evening the preparation for the Passover, was also known as the "first day" of Passover <Lev. 23:5-7>. Handicraftsmen, with the exception of tailors, barbers, and laundresses, were obliged to cease from work, either from morning or from noon, according to the custom of the different places in Palestine. No leaven was allowed to be eaten after noon, when all that had been found either on this day or the preceding one was to be burned. On the 14th Nisan every Israelite who was physically able, not in a state of Levitical uncleanness, or further distant from Jerusalem than fifteen miles, was to appear before the Lord with an offering proportionate to his means <Exo. 23:15; Deut. 16:16-17>. Women, though not legally bound to appear in the sanctuary, were not excluded <1 Sam. 1:7; Luke 2:41-42>.
4. Offering of the Paschal Lamb. The lamb was to be free from all blemish and neither less than eight days nor more than exactly one year old. Each paschal lamb was to serve a "company" of not less than ten nor more than twenty, the representatives of each company going to the Temple. The daily evening sacrifice <Exo. 29:38-39>, usually killed at the eighth and a half hour (i.e., 2:30 P.M.), and offered up at the ninth and a half hour (i.e., 3:30 P.M.), was on this day killed at 1:30 and offered at 2:30 P.M., an hour earlier. And if the 14th of Nisan happened on a Friday, it was killed at <12:30> and offered at 1:30 P.M., two hours earlier than usual, so as to avoid any needless breach of the Sabbath.
Before the incense was burned or the lamps were trimmed, the paschal sacrifice had to be offered. It was done in this way: The first of the three festive divisions, with their paschal lambs, was admitted within the court of the priests. Each division was to consist of not less than thirty persons. Immediately, the massive gates were closed behind them, and the priests blew a threefold blast from their silver trumpets when the Passover was slain; altogether, the scene was most impressive. All along the court up to the altar of burnt offering priests stood in two rows, the one holding golden, the other silver, bowls. In these the blood of the paschal lambs, which each Israelite slew for himself (as representative of his company at the paschal supper), was caught up by a priest, who handed it to his colleague, receiving back an empty bowl, and so the bowls with the blood were passed up to the priest at the altar, who jerked it in one jet at the base of the altar. While this was going on, a most solemn "hymn" of praise was raised, the Levites leading in the song and the officers either repeating after them or merely responding. "The Hallel [which see] was recited the whole time, and if it was finished before all the paschal animals were slain it might be repeated a second and even a third time. Next the sacrifices were hung up on hooks along the court, or laid on staves which rested on the shoulders of two men (on Sabbaths they were not laid on staves), then flayed, the entrails taken out and cleansed, and the inside fat separated, put in a dish, salted, and placed on the fire of the altar of burnt offering. This completed the sacrifice.
"The first division of officers being dismissed, the second entered, and finally the third, the service in each case being conducted in precisely the same manner. Then the whole service concluded by burning the incense and trimming the lamps for the night." If it was the Sabbath, the first division waited in the court of the Gentiles, the second between the ramparts, i.e., the open space between the walls of the court of the women and the trellis work in the Temple, whereas the third remained in its place. At dark all went out to roast their paschal sacrifices. According to Jewish ordinance, the paschal lamb was roasted on a spit of pomegranate wood, the spit passing through from mouth to vent. If it touched the oven, the part so touched was to be cut away, thus carrying out the idea that the lamb must not be defiled by any contact with foreign matter. It was not to be "sodden," because the flesh must remain pure, without the addition even of water, and no bone of it was to be broken.
5. The Paschal Supper. As the guests gathered around the paschal table they were arrayed in their best festive garments, joyous and at rest, as became the children of a king. To express this idea the rabbis insisted that at least a part of the feast should be partaken in a recumbent position. The left elbow was placed on the table, the head resting on the hand, with sufficient room between each guest for the free movement of the right hand. This explains in what sense John "was reclining on Jesus' breast," and afterward "leaning back thus on Jesus' breast," when he leaned back to speak to Him <John 13:23,25; Luke 22:14>. The father, or other person presiding, took the place of honor at the table, probably somewhat raised above the rest.
The paschal supper commenced by the head of the "company" pronouncing a benediction over the first cup of wine, which had been filled for each person. It was then drunk, and a basin of water and a towel were handed around or the guests got up to wash their hands <John 13:4-5,12>, after which the appropriate blessing was pronounced.
These preliminaries ended, a table was brought in, upon which was the paschal meal. The president of the feast first took some of the herbs, dipped them in the sauce (Heb. charoseth), ate some, and gave to the others <Matt. 26:23; John 13:26>. Immediately after this all the dishes were removed from the table (to excite curiosity), and the second cup of wine was filled. Then the son asked his father as follows: "Wherefore is this night distinguished from all other nights? For on all other nights we eat leavened or unleavened bread, but on this night only unleavened bread? On all other nights we eat any kind of herbs, but on this night only bitter herbs? On all other nights we eat meat roasted, stewed, or boiled but on this night only roasted? On all other nights we dip [the herbs] only once, but on this night twice?" In reply the head of the house related the whole national history, commencing with Terah, Abraham's father, Israel's deliverance from Egypt, and the giving of the law.
The paschal dishes were now placed back upon the table. The president took up in succession the dish with the Passover lamb, that with the bitter herbs, and that with the unleavened bread, briefly explaining the importance of each; the first part of the Hallel was sung <Pss. 113 and 114>, with this brief thanksgiving at the close: "Blessed art thou, Jehovah our God, King of the universe, who hast redeemed us and redeemed our fathers from Egypt." The second cup of wine was then drunk, and hands were washed a second time, with the same prayer as before, and one of the two unleavened cakes broken and "thanks given."
Pieces of the broken cake, with "bitter herbs" between them and "dipped" in the charoseth, were next handed to each of the company. This, in all probability, was the "dipped morsel" which, in answer to John's inquiry about the betrayer, the Lord "gave" to Judas <John 13:25-30; cf. Mark 14:22; Luke 22:21>.
The paschal supper itself consisted of the unleavened bread, with bitter herbs, of the so-called Chagigah (i.e., a voluntary peace offering made by private individuals), and the paschal lamb itself. After that nothing more was to be eaten, so that the flesh of the paschal sacrifice might be the last meat partaken of. But since the cessation of the paschal sacrifice, the Jews conclude the supper with a piece of unleavened cake called the Aphikomen, or after dish. Hands were again washed, the third cup was filled, and grace after meat said. The service concluded with the fourth cups over which the second portion of the Hallel was sung <Pss. 115-18>, the whole ending with the so-called "blessing of the song."
6. The 15th Nisan, Unleavened Bread. On this day there was a holy convocation, and it was one of the six days on which, as on the Sabbath, no manner of work was allowed, with this exception: whereas on the Sabbath the preparation of necessary food was not allowed <Exo. 16:5,23,29; 35:2-3>, on holy convocation it was permitted <12:16; Lev. 23:7; Num. 28:18>. The other five days on which the Bible prohibits servile work are the seventh of this festival, the day of Pentecost, New Year's Day, and the first and last of the feast of Booths (Tabernacles, KJV).
In addition to the ordinary sacrifices there were offered on this and the following six days two bulls, a ram, and seven lambs of the first year (with grain offerings) for a burnt offering, and a goat for a sin offering (28:19-23). Besides these public sacrifices voluntary offerings were made by each individual appearing before the Lord in Jerusalem <Exo. 23:15; Deut. 16:16>. The Jewish canon prescribed that this freewill offering should be a burnt offering, worth not less than sixteen grains of corn; a festive offering of not less value than thirty-two grains; and a peace, or joyful offering <27:7>, the value to be determined by the offerer <16:16-17>.
from New Unger's Bible Dictionary)
(originally published by Moody Press of Chicago, Illinois. Copyright (C) 1988.)
 
I looked into this a little last night.
One I had not heard before, but is certainly worth considering is that John was written from a different time perspective. Apparently, the Pharasee's and the Galaleans, if I remember correctly, considered a day from sunrise to sunrise, and the Judains considered a day from sunset to sunset. If John was using one and the synoptics were using another, then it could all make sense. There are several other ideas and theories, but I'm sure they are readily availble on th web somewhere. I was reading from a book, and don't feel like typing it all out, unless asked for specifically.

Anyway, we know that there were different competing calenders, thus what the essenes used was different which could accound for different days. And there were differed ideas as to what a day was, and time aswell. It seems that people in that day couldn't tell you what day it was because of competing ideas, so we shouldn't be surprised if we can't figure it out either.
 
I was wondering when Jesus was crucified? Not the exact date like September 25 or anything like that but more in relation to, "was he crucified before or after passover." I've heard some people say that the synoptic gospels say that he was crucified after passover and The Gospel According to John says that he was crucified on the passover.
_________________

They used the SOLAR calendar
The Lord was laid in the Sepulcher on 14th Nisan , immediately before "the High Sabbath", Nisan 15th (Matt. 27:62. Mark 15:42. Luke 23:54. John 19:31, 42). Therefore He was crucified on Wednesday, 14th of Nisan.
The 14th of Nisan, began at sunset on our Tuesday, and went threw to Wednesday to sundown.

The twenty-four hours were divided into the twelve hours of the night (reckoned from sunset), and "twelve hours in the day" (reckoned from sunrise. See John 11:9). Hence "the sixth hour" of John 19:14 was our midnight; "the third hour" of Mark 15:25 was our 9 a.m.; "the sixth hour" of Matt. 27:45; Mark 15:33; Luke 23:44; was our noon and the "ninth hour" of Matt. 27:45,46; Mark 15:33.34; Luke 23:44; was our 3 p.m.

Passover April 3/4 is ALWAYS 14 days after the spring Equinox (March 21) starting at sundown.
http://home.earthlink.net/~mathematiker/Cal/toc.html

The SOLAR calendar never changes for we are children of Light. 1 Ths 5:5
Its the same time year in an year out, year after year.

Don t get the Solar Calendar mixed up with Gregorian calendar that we use nowdays. http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/astronomy/Calendar.html

You can read about the 1st Passover which was the exact same time.

Exd 12:2 This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be]the first month of the year to you.
beginning of months- spring equinox of Solar calendar march 21

Exd 12:3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their] fathers, a lamb for an house:
Our scarafice was the Lamb of God

Exd 12:4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.

Exd 12:5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:

Exd 12:6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.

Exd 12:7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.


Exd 12:8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.
A type of Communion

Exd 12:9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof.
Eze3:2 eat the roll, Rev 10:9

Exd 12:10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.
Heb 12:29 God is a consuming fire

Exd 12:11 And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD'S passover.
Gospel armor Eph 6

Exd 12:12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.

Exd 12:13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.
Have the Blood of the Lamb on the doorposts of your mind so that Satan has to Passover you.

Exd 12:14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.

Exd 12:23 For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.
Satan is the destroyer

Exd 12:24 And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.
 
FYI- the calendar used was LUNI/SOLAR not simply solar.

The fact that Christian beliefs encompass Wed, Thurs, and Fri for possible execution dates simply reinforces the contradictions within the gospels.

You have chosen the Wed scenario. This is fine for explaining the three days and three nights Jesus was to be in the ground but in generates further problems wrt other issues. For example, John has Pilate saying to the mob "here is your king" in the sixth hour which you say is midnight. In this scenario Jesus dies in the early morning hours. There is no "darkness" from noon to 3 pm as is seen in the synoptic gospels. How could there be? According to John (according to your post) it's around 2-3 in the morning!

Next consider that Jesus is to be taken down from the cross because of the High Sabbath which in this case you define as the Passover. Again, this means according to John the passover seder hasn't taken place, but according to the synoptics, the seder HAD taken place the previous evening!

Finally, Mark and Luke refer to the prepartion before the sabbath but not a High sabbath. This would have to be in the hours before sunset on Friday the normal weekly sabbath as opposed to the High sabbath only identified by John which you state was on the Wednesday. Sorry, but these scenarios cannot be reconciled in any way shape or form.
 
einstein said:
FYI- the calendar used was LUNI/SOLAR not simply solar.

For example, John has Pilate saying to the mob "here is your king" in the sixth hour which you say is midnight. In this scenario Jesus dies in the early morning hours. There is no "darkness" from noon to 3 pm as is seen in the synoptic gospels. How could there be? According to John (according to your post) it's around 2-3 in the morning!

Matt 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
six hour=noon
three hour of darkness, it was not at night.
Same as the Sun was darkened and the moon did not give her light.

Matt 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
This was from 12 noon to 3: P.M.

[quote:5bb81]Next consider that Jesus is to be taken down from the cross because of the High Sabbath which in this case you define as the Passover. Again, this means according to John the passover seder hasn't taken place, but according to the synoptics, the seder HAD taken place the previous evening!
[/quote:5bb81]
John 11:55, John 2:13 This "the Jews' passover" is NOT the same as the true Passover which God set in place.

CHRIST was crucified on the true Passover, becoming Our PASSOVER.
The day observed by the people, designated by these so-called "Jews" was NOT the true Passover. Their observance was just a bit late.

When does the 'Jewish religion' have their passover?
It is a day which is set according to the moon. The moon's cycles are not constant.

The day GOD set as Passover is according to the solar calendar, and not by the lunar.
Passover, the 14th day after the start of the new year (the 1st day being at the Spring Equinox).
 
Maybe I misunderstood you. Did you not say in your previous post that John's reference to the sixth hour would be midnight? If that is so, it contradicts Matthew's story of the crucifixtion between noon and 3 p.m. and the darkness over noon scenario.

I realize Christians view Jesus as the passover or pascal sacrifice. There are many reasons however why this is not in accordance with what is in the Tanach. Besides, this thread is not concerned with this particular issue.

The Jewish calendar was and is lunisolar with the months being defined by lunar cycles and the years by solar cycles.

Psalm 104:19- The moon marks off the seasons, and the sun knows when to go down.

Numbers 28:14-This is the monthly burnt offering to be made at each new moon during the year.

Psalm 81:3-Sound the ram's horn at the New Moon, and when the moon if full, on the day of our Feast.
 
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